JR 137

Depends on how much you want to shrink it. If it needs just a little shrinking out of the box, I’d follow the manufacturer’s directions. It’ll probably shrink a bit even if you don’t try to shrink it. On the opposite end, I have to shrink my Shureido gis considerably. The distributor says to wash cold and hang dry and it’ll get to its final size in about a year. No way I’m waiting that long and wearing what looks like a dress. I was with warm water and dry on medium (my machine don’t have temperature degree settings) 4 or 5 times until it’s the right size, then I get it hemmed and patches sewn on. I shrink it to about 95% of where I want it because it’ll still shrink a bit more over time. After those initial wash and dry cycles, I always wash cold and hang dry.

I’m not sure how pertinent this is to telling your student something that you 100% believe to be the truth, but it fits here somehow in my mind... Seido is a pretty big organization. Anyone from outside the NYC region who is capable of making it to honbu goes there for dan testing (Nakamura also tests people when he travels to dojos). My teacher has attended countless dan tests at honbu. Everyone is expected to do the same kata the same way. But somehow there’s always variation. Nakamura and those assisting (especially his direct honbu students) will correct students. My teacher has been to enough tests where he claims he can tell who’s teacher is who without asking nor seeing them interact with their teacher. Teachers are human and move different ways. When someone moves a certain way and you’re trying to mirror that person, you inadvertently pick up their subtle variations. Now give that several generations and the founder not being around any more to correct it. Furthermore, as you stated, kata was most likely a work in progress to the creators of it. A creator may have put a lot of techniques into his kata and taught it to his first several students. After a while, he might have made changes as he grew in his understanding of the art and made some changes to it; minor changes or outright substituting one movement for another. This could’ve happened several times. Think about it this way - if you’re Ryu Ryu Ko and you developed a kata in your 20s and taught it to your first wave of students, do you feel forced to keep it exactly that way the rest of your life for the sake of preserving history? Or do you make changes you feel are necessary over the years? If you’re one of Ryu Ryu Ko’s first wave of students and relocate elsewhere and start teaching, you’re most likely not meeting up periodically to keep current on his changes; you’re teaching what you’ve been taught. A student from his second wave of students does the same, only all they’ve learned is the altered kata. And this could’ve happened several times over. That only explains a little bit of the variation, not all of it though. If you’re the creator of a kata, you’re not looking to preserve a kata exactly as it was taught to you simply because it wasn’t taught to you; you created it. If you learned it from someone else, then you can choose to preserve it exactly as it was taught to you or alter it to fit your ideals and/or your students’ needs. Looking for the reason why two different groups do a kata differently when can easily trace their lineage back to a creator of a kata isn’t going to be answered with one reason. There’s going to be several. Unless there’s irrefutable documentation of who changed what and when and why, all we’re left with is assumptions. Even pictures can be deceiving; what if the person in the picture did it wrong and no one noticed until later on? There are enough errors in books and videos being produced today, even with all of our current fact checkers. Back then was likely far easier to make mistakes before they went to print.

I don’t know our organization’s age requirements for rank l, and I’m honestly not sure if there are any age requirements. I haven’t heard any mentioned anywhere, except when it comes to junior black belt vs adult. I think it’s a matter of ability, time in grade, maturity, etc. CIs send yudansha candidates to be tested by Kaicho Nakamura if it is at all possible, and he or the highest ranking branch chiefs in international regions test all candidates after a certain rank. So if the wrong person was tested, it’s going to reflect on the CI. I’ve heard our rule of thumb rank to open your own dojo is 3rd dan. There have been exceptions made for individuals. People have been allowed to open their own dojo under the organization’s banner with a lower rank; the decision to allow it depended on their maturity and experience, teaching ability, proximity to other branch dojos, etc. I’ve heard of an individual who opened a dojo at around brown belt rank 2nd or 1st kyu). It wasn’t an official dojo, and was more of a study group. The person had a decent amount of prior experience in another organization and I think another art altogether. This was a person in his/her early 30s who relocated by their company to an area without a branch within a reasonable distance. This person worked closely with another branch dojo, traveled to attend class there and at honbu regularly, and did not promote students. The CI from the overseeing dojo visited regularly and did all testing. I heard that while the arrangement wasn’t optimal on paper or logistically, it worked out well. I’m 99% sure that dojo and CI are still around and the CI has reached and probably surpassed the 3rd dan rank. While I think minimum age requirements are a great idea, I think they should be more of a guideline than a black and white rule. At 42, I know some people my age and older who have no business being in charge of anyone nor anything from a maturity standpoint. Working at several colleges for about 15 years, I’ve met more than a handful of very mature and wise beyond their years 19-25 year olds. Age should be a guideline, not a set in stone requirement. Especially as the person gets older. For a person who’s met minimum standards and time in rank requirements, is there really a difference in maturity between someone who’s 65 vs someone who’s 70 for a high black belt rank? Hasn’t that person been vetted enough previously? If you don’t know the maturity level of someone who’s been in your organization for a few decades, what are you doing?

Welcome aboard!

I’ve heard a lot of good things about the Europa. I haven’t seen nor worn one though. A dojo mate wears a Kamikaze America, which everyone says is a heavier version of the Europa. His gi seems like a quality gi and he really likes it. If it’s true that they’re practically the same gi, it seems like a solid investment.

I’ve never bought a gi that didn’t need the pants hemmed. I step on 30” inseam pants cuffs, so that tells you something.

But are you thinking proficient teacher or proficient practitioner here? The teacher doesn’t need to be able to do everything he’s teaching. He needs to be able to get his students to do it. A gymnastics coach doesn’t have to be able to do the pommel horse; he needs to be able to get his gymnast to do it. A basketball coach doesn’t have to be able to dunk; he needs to get his players who are tall enough to do so. We were messing around with what we call a tornado kick in the dojo a few weeks back. We don’t consider that a fighting move by any means, but it’s a fun way to train agility. My CI has had both hips replaced and needs another one. Needless to say he’s not jumping and spinning and kicking like that. But he taught it. And corrected mistakes. That’s being a proficient teacher. Not everyone is going to be proficient in every single technique in the system. You don’t need to be proficient in everything to be a proficient student. But you need to be able to effectively use the core of the art if you’re proficient. All IMO.

IMO proficiency is being able to do it correctly from a textbook standpoint, and being able to use it. Take something very basic - the front kick/mae geri. Knowing how to do it, being able to do it in the air, being able to kick a pad/bag with it, and finally being able to use it effectively (from a power and strategy perspective) against a partner who isn’t allowing it. That’s proficiency IMO. Mastery of it would be being that person who can effectively use it at will against practically everyone. They can take it and easily adapt it to practically any situation. In other words, they can easily make the technique fit the circumstances rather than abandoning it for something else when the situation gets difficult. People say shodan means you’ve mastered the basics of the art. I say it means you’re proficient in the basics of the art. You can demonstrate them, you can effectively use them against an opponent; but you can’t adapt it freely and at will. You can adapt things, but to a rudimentary level. One more way to describe my proficiency vs mastery views... A person gets into a fight and has an opponent who is a handful. Someone who’s not proficient won’t look like they’re using anything they’ve learned. You won’t be able to tell they’ve got any training at all. Someone who’s proficient will show a decent level of training. They won’t resort to desperate haymakers or that stereotypical backing up and turning away, dropping their head and hands, stuff like that. They won’t look like Bruce Lee, but to most people, even the untrained eye, it’ll be evident that they’ve got a good idea how to fight. Someone who’s mastered the art should be in full control of the fight the entire time. They don’t have to look flashy and athletic by any means, but if you know what you’re watching, you can easily tell they’re dictating what the opponent is without looking like they’re trying rather than having to fight the other guy’s fight. Where am I in this pecking order? I’m pretty sure I’m proficient. Edit: One last way to put proficiency into perspective A proficient fighter will get the little things right against a higher ranked opponent. He won’t run around like a chicken with his head cut off. He won’t be cornered constantly. He won’t be going into the standing fetal position when punches are thrown at him. He won’t drop his hands and give any easy targets. He’ll stick to the basics and trust the training. He’ll stand his ground. He’ll make mistakes that’ll get picked apart by higher ranks, but he won’t get outright embarrassed by most people. It’ll be obvious that he trains and he’s not throwing that training out when it gets really tough.

Welcome to the forum, Axfinger. Sizing gis properly is an exercise in frustration until you find the right size and fit. Gis are cut differently by different manufacturers, and everyone’s body is different, even if they’re the same height and weight. The get a bigger size is good advice IMO. 100% cotton gis shrink quite a bit. I tend to get a size larger than I should to account for it. I wear a Shureido K-11 gi. I buy a size 6 even though I’m a size 5. When I get a new one, it’s enormous. The first time my wife saw me get one and try it on straight out of the packaging, my wife literally laughed and said “is that a dress?” The bottom of the jacket is at about the top of my knee caps. After washing and machine drying several times, it’s near my fingertips when my arms are straight down by my sides. Account for shrinkage in sizing the gi. Most manufacturers don’t account for it is sizing. Furthermore, I’ve found that they shrink quite a bit in length, but not so much in width. Most gi manufacturers give measurements of their sizes beyond height and weight. Take your current gi and compare the measurements to it. Here’s an example: http://www.okinawadirect.com/shopcontent.asp?type=DogiSizing Just remember to go up a 1/2 size to a full size to account for shrinkage. Until we find a store that has a ton of different makes, models, and sizes of preshrunk gis on racks like a suit store has, we’re unfortunately stuck ordering online and shipping back and forth until we find the right gi and size. It can get pretty expensive. You don’t mention where you are, but hearing you say Tokon, I’m assuming you’re in the US. I’ve heard many times that Tokon is the US equivalent of Kamikaze, with the name change being due to copyright issues. The gentleman that owns Tokon is I believe a family member of the Kamikaze people in Europe. Don’t hold me to exactly what’s going on with that. If you’re in the market for an upscale/expensive gi, have you considered Shureido? If you call Shureido USA, they’ll go through a whole measuring process with you over the phone. It’s a good 45 minute phone call where you’ll have a measuring tape and measure yourself and your current gi. If you’re a taller and slimmer body type and are looking for a slim cut kind of gi, Shureido isn’t it though. It’s a full cut gi. Just some options to throw out there. Until you find the perfect fit, it’s going to be some shipping back and forth. Once you find that right gi and fit, stick to it and don’t grow

It’s interesting that the dance studio owner doesn’t allow the parents in and they’re ok with that. Perhaps it’s simply the layout? I don’t blame her for not allowing them in if they’re sitting on the floor during class. Space issues and all is what I’m thinking here. I think a great and appropriate compromise is leaving the door open. As a parent, I’d be fine with that if there wasn’t space in the room and no window. As a teacher, it would really drive me up the wall if the parents were making noise and affecting the class. If it’s an issue, I’d suggest speaking with them and putting up a sign as a reminder. I was thinking about this thread last night during my 5 year old’s dance class. There’s a waiting room with a window to the studio. I kept thinking how uncomfortable I’d be if there was no window and I couldn’t see or hear what was going on. I also thought maybe it’s a cultural thing and it’s more accepted in other places. I also though maybe I’m a bit overprotective, so I asked a few parents I know there and people I work with how they’d feel. All of them said they wouldn’t feel comfortable, so I know it’s not just me. Take from that what you will. Just my opinions. No judgement. You’ve got to do what works for you.

Excellent write-up Wastelander. Next up, can you tell us how black belts really came into use? I know the real story and I’m pretty confident that you do as well, but it’s your thread and you’d do a far better job I don’t want to hijack.

Conrad665, The examples I gave are so memorable because there were only those two in my personal experience. I’d have to say it’s quite uncommon. If it were common, they’d just blend in or fade into my memory. The women who think and act in that manner are quite few and far between. If they’re out there, unfortunately. The girl who did that to me in 6th grade actually became a pretty good friend of mine near the end of high school. I chalk that up to her being young and stupid and making a mistake.

And that’s the way it should be. Our dojo is the same way. You spar to the individual’s ability, not to their gender.

I’d love to fight like an old man, only as a 20 something At 42, I’m on the younger side of average adult age at my dojo. I love how the older guys and ladies fight: they stand back and let the fight come to them. Instead of trying to overwhelm people, they pick them apart by countering. They stay within their physical limitations and make it look easy. Basically, the same thing I do to the kids and beginners. I’d love to be able to fight just like those guys. But I’d like to do that and add a few head height kicks and some other flashy stuff at will. Very, very few people can do both.

I agree with what you’re saying. The way I feel about it a woman attacked me is I’m going to more or less do the same appropriate thing I’d do to anyone else, man, woman or child. If the person is truly smaller and weaker than I am and poses minimal threat, I’m going to use the bare minimum force to stop the nonsense. That would most likely be a generic restraint of some sort. If I was attacked by a woman who could do me serious harm, I’d defend myself according to the circumstances. A last resort would be hitting, but if I had no other choice, then I’d do whatever I need to do. I’m not taking on a full-fledged beating without fighting back. The flip side of men not hitting women and that being the norm in most civilized places is that women know this and a few (very few) are willing to take full advantage of that. It happened to me around 6th grade or so. I girl who was several years older and significantly bigger than me decided to punch me in the face several times and kick me in the groin a few times. I didn’t hit back. Looking back as an adult, I think maybe I should have. But I know what would’ve happened; her father would’ve been at my door challenging my father to a fight because I hit his daughter. Or her brother and the other guys there would’ve stepped in and beat me up for hitting her. Not much different nowadays. You won’t have the father’s going at it at our age, but if a woman did the same thing to me today and I hit back, practically any guy walking down the street would step in. Brings up another incident that happened several years back. There was a couple arguing in front of their house, across the street from mine. She started hitting him, he finally had enough and hit back. It all fairness to him, the situation dictated that response. My brother and I happened to be outside and saw it all go down. It happened pretty quickly. Once we saw him retaliate, we both ran over, put him on the ground and held him there. How’d she react? She kicked him in the face while screaming stuff like “that’s what you get for hitting a woman.” I looked at her and said “if you do that again, I’m going to let him up. Leave now.” She got the hint. The police showed up as she was going back into the house. When I told them what happened (I went to high school with both cops), I made sure I told them exactly what she did. No idea how that played out with the police, as I went home disgusted. In hindsight, I honestly question why I intervened. No matter what the circumstances, men are at a huge disadvantage. Defend yourself, and you’re a guy who beats up on women. No one’s going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Don’t defend yourself, and you could get seriously hurt. The only way it’s genuinely acceptable is if everyone knows she came at you with a truly deadly weapon. Sorry, just my honest thoughts here. Edit: This is actual self defense. The dojo is a completely different animal altogether.

Welcome back yet again!

This speaks in volumes to me, as did your entire OP, but how often does the practitioner understand their Art, and the concepts of it?! Without me going into a drawn out thesis about Kata and/or Art, I like what Bruce Lee said... “Don't think. Feel. It is like a finger pointing out to the Moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.” Are your, whomever this might be, trees getting in the way of your forest, and vice versa?! By all means, please go into a thesis. I really like your thesises (spelling?).

I’ve heard people discuss what they think is the art part of MA, but I haven’t heard much depth to the reasons why. I started responding to a post in another thread, but I figured it would make a good thread on its own. I look at the art part of MA as the interpretation of what’s being done. The easiest way I can describe this is kata. We have these relatively standardized patterns of movement without a partner. I look at and perform those movements, and I see, think and feel one thing. I have my interpretations of the meanings of the movements. Someone else does the same kata and there’s an entirely different interpretation. Note I’m not talking about how it looks, I’m talking about what those same movements mean. Then there’s the same person interpreting it different ways in order to fit the exact circumstance they’re facing at that moment. Kata is the easiest way to convey it to me. Even the most basic things - blocks, punches, kicks, even the hand coming back to chamber can all be interpreted and functionally applied differently. It’s an art because there’s no one right answer, such as in science and math. Much like looking at the Mona Lisa, everyone who sees it will interpret it differently. Some will interpret it better, or better yet, more deeply than others, but not interpretation is outright wrong, except maybe for the really far out interpretations like it was painted by aliens or something.

I’ve heard a lot of people say the “art” part of MA is what you’re saying. I had a decent length post about it, but I think I’m going to start a new thread instead.

Parent of a 5 year old and almost 8 year old speaking. It doesn’t matter if it’s MA or any other activity. The “you” doesn’t mean you personally, it’s a general you. Also, I 100% believe your intentions and motivations are pure here, so take absolutely none of this personally... If I can’t watch my kids directly, either through a window, camera, etc., there’s no way I’m signing them up. Too many people have done too many bad things to kids, and I’m not putting mine in any position to have that happen to them. If you tell me I can’t watch my kids around you, I think you’ve got something to hide; poor instruction, poor attitude with kids, or worse. It doesn’t matter what you tell me your reasons are. I’ll even give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you. But I won’t sign them up. I’ll find another place. Back to the JR we all know and love ... Some kids and/or situations benefit from the parents not being present. Mine are perfectly fine with me being present. Telling the parents they’re not allowed to watch is going to raise some red flags. The best thing you can do is request that the parents don’t talk during class time. Explain that it distracts the kids. Tell them they should go outside or another place in the building where the students can’t hear them if they need to talk. If a parent has been asked to keep quiet and doesn’t, have a private conversation with them. If they don’t change, dismiss the student if absolutely need be (although that’s a last resort obviously). Another option could be building a wall with a big window for the parents to watch through. I don’t if this is a possibility or not, just throwing it out there if it is. My daughters’ gymmastics and dance studios have this. It’s a pain in the butt, but it’s an acceptable solution.

Welcome to the forum, OhioShodan85. I advise going to the introductions area and introducing yourself there so we can get a better sense of who you are, what your experience has been (aside from this), and we can properly welcome you. Now for the conversation at hand... I understand and agree with loyalty. But as Sensei8 said, that works both ways. You came to the dojo to train and to learn; not to be a teacher. By having you teach and barely train, they’re doing you a disservice. I’m not saying they’re taking advantage of you, as giving them the benefit of the doubt, they’re hopefully not intentionally doing you this disservice. If I were in your shoes, I’d have a talk with the head guy. A private conversation where you don’t let emotions get in the way. Forget about the teaching style being used now; address the most important issue. If you’re feeling this way, chances are pretty good that your contemporaries are feeling the same thing. If he doesn’t change this, he may end up losing a lot more senior ranks. I’m a school teacher too - science and PE. The last thing I want to do is go to the dojo and teach there too. I don’t mind helping out here and there. If my teacher asked me to cover a class because he couldn’t make it, I wouldn’t mind that either. But definitely not day in and day out. I didn’t sign up for that. I signed up to train and learn. As far as teaching styles go, being a teacher and being someone else’s student is pretty tough. We’ve had formal training. It’s hard not to go into teacher evaluation mode. There’s been several times I’ve wanted to give assistant instructors advice. Friendly and professional advice that comes from a good place and that I’d think it would really benefit the person. I’ve never done it though. I think about how I personally feel about unsolicited advice on how to do my job, and I back off. The way I look at it, they know what I do for a living. If they want advice, they’ll come to me. And I’ll give it to them. To wrap my thesis-lengthed post up, have a private talk with your head guy. Explain your concerns. Give him a chance to see it through your eyes. If he can’t give you a reasonable solution, look elsewhere. If he can, it all works out.

Happy birthday, Bob. And many more!

I used to get worked up about watered down arts and McDojos. It doesn’t bother me at all anymore. Why? It’s never once affected what I’m doing. Non-MA people say stupid things every now and then, and I just laugh. It all used to bother me, now it’s just entertaining. “Real” MA isn’t for everyone. Not everyone wants to go in and work hard. Not everyone wants to be pushed out of their comfort zone. Not everyone wants to nor enjoys getting hit; and getting hit hard. To each his own. It doesn’t affect anything I’m doing in or out of the dojo. IMO the ugly in the MA is the politics. Organizations splitting over control, power, and greed. Organizations telling dojo owners what to do outside of the curriculum and MA standards. The ugly is the egos involved. People thinking everything they’re doing is right, and everything else is wrong. And the bashing of the McDojos and the like tie into this a bit. I mean, so what if people think your art is a bunch of kids in funny clothes and getting black belts as participation awards? Do you know better? Does people’s opinions change what’s really going on in your dojo? If a potential student comes in and observes a class or two, it should be immediately obvious what your standards really are. There’s enough room on this earth for MA of all types - from kids having fun to adults getting not much more than a workout and social club, to the hardest of the hardcore fighters. There’s enough room in the market for the cheapest and worst performing car all the way up to the Bugatti Veyron (if that’s the most expensive and fastest car on the market); the MA isn’t really any different. Edit: By you, I mean a general you, not anyone specific.

He may very well be a male chauvinist. If that’s the case, keep pairing up with someone else. It’s his issue to deal with, you don’t have to change anyone. You made a great point - we all need to adjust what we’re doing depending on who we’re partnered with. While I don’t spar with the younger ones very often, I have to go easier with them. There are a few women who I go easier with. There are also adult men who I go easier with. Then there are people with injuries and/or medical issues. To go all out with everyone doesn’t do anyone any good. Sparring partners are exactly that - partners. You should push your partner to work hard and keep him/her out of their comfort zone. Completely dominating and overwhelming them doesn’t do them any good, and it doesn’t do you much good either. I typically spar with two 3rd dans and a 4th dan on Tuesday nights. I’m a 1st kyu. They go at me, and I go right back at them. But I know they’re not going as hard as they possibly can. They’re pushing me hard enough to improve. When I get stupid and think I can keep up with everything they’ve got, I’m reminded of how far off I am during stuff like promotional tests. I just tested for 1st kyu last Monday night. They came at me far harder that night than they consistently do on Tuesday nights, that’s for sure. And I know they have more than they gave me that night. You go as hard as your partner can handle and walk away learning and improving. Some people can’t handle my 50%, and I wouldn’t be able to handle others’ 50%. The point is for everyone to work together and improve, not to walk in and dominate everyone in sight. Male, female, child, adult, injured, in perfect health; everyone should be reasonably pushed to their own individual limits. Just because I’m a man doesn’t mean every woman’s limits are significantly lower than mine. In fact, my limits are significantly lower than several women I train alongside.

Congratulations, P.A.L.