wildbourgman

I think you'll adapt a lot simply by being around it. Once you normalize to the speed and timing you'll grow into it and then it will become instinct. That's what training is, it's about getting you to do the right thing at the right time without any thought. But remember it won't happen overnight and it won't happen without putting in the effort.

I tend to agree although I can't speak from experience because I've never really been wrong about anything! But seriously it's about what works for the individual. I've alluded to that in a previous post, I like tradition as much as the next traditionalist but it has to work for me to take it seriously. That's why I've been more and more drawn to Okinawan over Japanese martial arts as of late. My body isn't athletic enough to seriously perform Shotokan karate in a way that I think it should be performed, but also it's that I don't believe my aging body and reflexes can accomplish self-defense adequately using that system as it's been taught. I still believe that Shotokan has it's place and has a lot to add to martial arts but for me and my situation I needed to grow as my natural abilities shrink.

My wife thinks that grown men dressing up in white pajamas and pretending to fight imaginary people is silly but what does she know! I try not to take my self so serious as to truly argue with anyone on this site. Now I have been known to be combative on other non martial arts related forums a few years back, but I've mostly given that up.

Wastelander, I agree with you on the fact that no single method of teaching works for every student, but in most dojo's you will have every student taught the same so that's why this topic of discussion is not silly. That's just a matter of available time and the teaching style of the instructor. When you have a full dojo and an hour of class time twice a week teaching to every students needs is just not practical all the time. Now whether or not the chicken came before the egg part of the discussion was just me analyzing and stereotyping why some styles might have different views on how to handle what we are talking about. I wasn't advocating the best teaching style necessarily, except for the part where my experience has shown me schools that taught no bunkai at all, which I think is very bad for traditional martial arts. Also I love focusing on solo kata, but not if its just a dance, it has to be tied with techniques that the karate-ka can visualize, now that's where the sequence of how bunkai is taught comes in. It's debatable and that's why these forums are so nice.

So despite the revolution in kicking from TKD and the martial arts craze of the 70s and 80s, Shotokan dojos still kept it conservative and didn't change very much kicking wise? Not from what I've seen in regular training, I'm sure some dojo's may have adjusted and even adjusted back. Now when I was a kid in the 1980's training Shotokan we sure did practice a lot of kicks that you would see in Tae Kwon Do on our own. It was cool!

Kusotare, I think this divergence in theory that we have might go all the way back to the time when karate went from Okinawa to Japan, but it probably began way earlier. In my view the Japanese seem to revere the art in martial arts and the Okinawan people were practicing for survival. To go further that thought, the Japanese were a more warlike people and they held a high esteem for the honored ceremonial aspects of things would be considered morbid to people that were on the opposite side of the sword. In my view the Okinawans were the exact opposite, they didn't find art in war, they had to hide the self defense aspect of their training within their art. If you look at some of the ritual dances that are performed in Okinawa you can see this. How many martial arts were designed by oppressed people and then hidden from the oppressor in the form or art. The Japanese had nothing to hide so they had the luxury of seeing it a different way. I try to take things back to the base and work from there, so I don't think that putting bunkai before kata is putting the cart before the horse at all. What do you think came first? Do you think someone went out and started performing martial arts moves or someone got in a fight and decided that he needed to get better at fighting? My thought is that someone needed to get better at fighting, so they practiced fighting techniques, then they decided to connect the techniques in what would be a sequence that made sence to them and that became kata. So why would we teach it in a different way than it happened for real? I've seen what we are talking about first hand. In the Shotokan dojos I've been to you learn the techniques, the kata, and then maybe the bunkai. A lot of focus is on the art of the kata. In the Shorin training I've seen you learn the techniques and then bunkai and kata together, where the focus is more on the martial aspects of the art. To go back to my first comments I think the difference between the Okinawan history and the Japanese history actually show it self in the divergence between Japanese and Okinawan styles of karate. Okinawan karate and bunkai would be considered dirty fighting where as Japanese karate seems to look a lot more like something with clear rules of engagement. I also think that's why the Founder of Wado Ryu blended his style (because something was missing), that's something I'm sure you know more about than me. That may also be the reason that MMA is hurting some karate styles and why Okinawan styles are more relevant now then they were 40 years ago.

I think kick training varies from dojo to dojo. In my training we mostly used front kicks, side thrust kicks, round house kicks, sometimes back kicks and spinning back kicks. I would guess it was no more than 20% of class devoted to strictly kicking alone. There were days when we had to clean up some sloppy technique and bad habits, then we'd focus on it with more attention to detail. Now there are a lot of using kicks together with punches in combinations that we train regularly. Shotokan does vastly differ from Tae Kwon Do in this aspect regardless of the connection between the two.

Kusotare, I think I'm going to have to disagree with must of your comments even though I get where your coming from and I also may have misunderstood you on some points. My initial training was basically the way you discuss it, but I've come to believe that bunkai came first. There is no reason for kata unless you need a fight sequence using bunkai to remember and polish up full speed without either having or hurting a partner. I don't think kata came before fighting, but as a result of it because someone needed to get better. How many people do you see that can perform the perfect kata like an explosive dance, but when it comes to fighting or kumite they are severely lacking and can't "come out of the dance" ? Also I see that more instructors just don't teach bunkai at all and that's the bigger problem. I also don't mind taking a western approach and using every single move like it actually means something (even intro salutations). When I say westernizing I might mean something different than you. I'll state later in my comments to catlike more to that point. As for as "insatiable demand to attach ‘bunkai’ to every part of it" why not, why waste any move? Why not make every move a teachable moment if you can? I personally don't believe martial arts is about inefficient movement, I think it's just the opposite. I was taught from a Japanese JKA kata champion that one of the moves in a kata he was teaching was "just for show". That's not good, I paid good money to attend that camp and my cash was not for show. So yes I like to attach bunkai to every part than it can be attached to, even bowing if possible. Now to catlikes concerns, I understand that his Sensei might not want him to go beyond what he's teaching at this time for bunkai to associate to certain moves on certain kata. His curriculum and your skill set might dictate what he thinks you need. My instructor explains that there can be many interpretations to the same move depending on level of experience, skill, athleticism, and the situations you come across in a real fight. One move might look like a block to a junior karate-ka, but later the same move might be a throw to a more advance person. Also different styles will have variations on the same move due to the distance that the particular style fights at for instance. I have trained in Shotokan and Shorin Ryu many of the katas are very similar but the bunkai that I have been taught can be somewhat to very different between the two. As for as my philosophy, I take what works for me, for my body type, my age, the possible fight sequences I could picture myself needing to practice because of my normal daily surroundings. If there's a move where an Okinawan master of yester-year taught was to protect against being hit with a Samurai sword and then Ian Abernathy said his variation on that same move would protect against a drunk in line at a football game bathroom, I'm sorry Bushi Matsumura, I'm going with Ian on this one.

Ok Alan, not to give him a pass or even to pick on him but by what your saying it's possible, it's also possible that Dillman and the like might believe in what they are doing because they see it work on students. Those students are simply people afflicted with something akin to a self induced Beatle Mania (Dillman Mania). If so Dillman himself is also self afflicted rather than a fraud.

Alan, now that is a plausible explanation and it also explains why on the you tube clips (that made Dillman look horrible) it only works on his students. To me if it's really working on his students and they are not just taking part in a fraud, then they are brainwashed to a point where it has a real physiological affect. Now if Dillman only gets attacked by his Students then his system will work perfectly.

I don't know Alan, I think sometimes we need to put it in Historical perspective. Why is MMA the sport any different than sparring? I watched UFC last night and there was plenty of good sportsmanship, before and after the fights no one left angry. Their was brutality but their was also a chess match that took place in many of the competitions. It seems Motobu Chōki and Mas Oyama just to name two were not always so spiritual or mystical about martial arts as to not see if their skills were practical in the real world. If heard many anecdotal stories of todays Okinawan masters that some people here might actually know accepting set up fights just to see who was the best. I say to each their own.

Bushido man, my vision would not change the styles that use Tuite. My vision is to change the focus toward teaching more tuite or even just better market the fact that it's within the art. I would love to get an up close and personal look at Shindokan, because I think this is probably more what I'm thinking of. Some Shorin Ryu dojos already have a more tuite focused curriculum, so as far as efficiency I think it would be a rather simple adjustment without looking outside of karate. As far as groundwork as in BJJ, I don't know if there is any equivalent in any Okinawan styles but my focus would be the stand up grappling and joint locks already in Karate systems. Maybe some of the other practitioners can help me on that. My angle though would be to not compete with BJJ on ground fighting, but to give folks that want to stay standing a way to do it when striking is not an option. I think that some customers are looking for that product even if they don't know it yet. I've told this anecdote a few times on this site, but I've talked to so many traditional karate instructors that lament the loss of past, current and future students to MMA clubs. Really I'm a novice in Karate, but I think I see one way to help them stop the bleeding.

Thanks Wastelander, I think the last part of my comment is more where I was eventually going later, because your comment is exactly what my Sensei would say to tuite as a stand alone art. Now this is just a brain storm and I know this is not traditional, but could a system that uses tuite, re-structure it's training to focus more on tuite simply in order to either stand up to other more MMA and Ju-jitsu focused arts? Could it work on the floor, the ring, the street with being more tuite focused? After proving is works a few times, how hard would it be to create it, explain it and sell it to the general public? Some background is Shotokan which used very little grappling, our Shorin Ryu group ranges from 90 percent striking and 10 percent tuite to 50/50 depending on the instructor (from what I see). How hard would it be to go say 90/10 tuite/striking and still end up with a strong defense system ? Or How about leaving everything alone and simply marketing the fact that we have tuite, focus and explain that as a sales pitch. I'm a big fan of evangelizing the Okinawan arts kind of like Shotokan and Tae Kwon Do did from the 1950's to the 1980's and especially as Brazilian Ju-jitsu did more recently.

Would anyone here consider Okinawan tuite a "grappling art" if not why not ? Personally I could see some dojos or even entire federations going with equal or possibly more tuite than striking curriculum in most traditional karate. In my opinion tuite and it's seamless flow with striking is where traditional Karate can compete with Brazilian jujitsu and MMA for students. Any thoughts?

Yeah, It's good to practice martial arts at home, but I bet your asking if you can only practice and learn martial arts at home without going to a instructor or dojo. I'm not against learning from videos or you-tube, the modern age is certainly going to be good in many ways, but I feel you need to train with others and an instructor in order to not engrain bad habits that will be hard to break.

Search Steven Ubl on youtube, I feel he's a little more of a technician as compared to Iain Abernethy who I really like also. I also really enjoy Wastelander's videos.

MatsuShinshii, I think there are a few reasons to look at the Karate glass as being half full, or at least taking that glass along with some lemons and making simply yourself some lemonade. We have some real good practitioners out there that are getting really good coverage now with all the new media available. We need to take that seed and grow it. What we can't allow is having bad actors poison what the others are trying to grow.

Lets go old school and say Satunuku "Tode" Sakagawa.

I don't think we take the time in most instances to get the results brought on by body hardening for many reasons. Fast paced lifestyles, results right now attitudes, and an ADD/ADHD diagnosis for everyone doesn't help.

My answer from what I've read and even seen to a certain extent is that it didn't happen overnight and it happened for many possible reasons. Once Karate got to Japan from Okinawa it was rebuilt to market it to the Japanese. It continued to be altered and adjusted until most of the mixed martial arts aspects of Okinawan karate were all but lost to anyone that wasn't associated with Okinawan karate. For instance would the Founder of Wado Ryu who had trained in Shotokan and Jujitsu feel the need to break off and blend the two arts into Wado Ryu if he had extensive training in Okinawan tuite? I don't know for sure, but I think not. I come from a Shotokan background and I can tell you that I know a few instructors that often complain about this very topic. Some systems core content today is not what it was decades ago. Shotokan, Tang So do and Tae Kwon Do's stand up striking can be extremely strong, but let grappling and ground work come into the picture and they fall apart quickly. Stand up and striking is the core content of these arts. Mixed martial arts UFC style training seems to offer the whole package, because Karate specialized toward the striking aspect of the art. That is a problem for many modern karate styles. I really believe this is where old school Okinawan Karate and even later styles like Wado Ryu can save the day. In the big picture you have to be able to make money to stay viable, you have to be marketable to fill a dojo, and you have to provide your customer with effective skills and a proven level of competency in order to be marketable and eventually make money. For the purest that doesn't think money and marketing makes a difference well you can't spread your knowledge to an empty dojo that can't afford the rent. That's where the believers in karate like myself have to spread the word and give students that would otherwise go to modern MMA schools a different option, but we have to make that option effective and competitive with and against MMA. How exactly do we do that ?

Can we have both? I like both and I don't think one unseats the other they both have their place in martial arts. It's like anything, it's all in what you put in to it and understanding what place each hold. Sport karate is not reality life or death protection and someone that can protect themselves very well might not look comfortable in sport karate. Personally in my current shape I'm might not be able to do either very well.

I've got a few that many would not have heard of. First my children and my own instructor Sensei Michael Veillon. We are truly blessed to have found him. I sometimes can't believe how much knowledge he has amassed over his time as a karate-ka. One other is from my younger years Niki Ikeda (Allen) who lived and competed in Louisiana when I first saw her. She was the closest thing to Rika Usami I've ever seen in person when it comes to kata. If the link works below look at how many competitions she won at the very competitive All-South tournament in Louisiana. If anyone here knows her or has access to video of her competing I'd love to get it. PM me if you come across that please. http://www.tulane.edu/~karate/AllSouth.htm Naka Tatsuya, Ian Abernathy, Steve Ubl, Takayuki Mikami John Shipes, Jesse Enkamp, and Rika Usami all get very honorable mentions.

I agree with your last point, but I would add that having affiliations and/or proven lineage can help folks that don't have a working knowledge of martial arts chose where to start when looking for instruction. Not everyone can look at an instructor and see what experienced practitioners see. So they can take some comfort in someone's background just as employers want to see your work history, certifications, trade association memberships, college degree, and references. So why would I expect to have a prospective employee that provides a service to me to have a resume' and not expect the same from a prospective martial arts instructor that I might employ to provide a service? I agree that associations or lack there of don't make the martial artist but it can be very helpful with marketing and proving to the untrained eye that you have a proven background. It certainly gives you an edge in the martial arts market.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/japanese-man-uses-karate-skills-fight-off-snarling-095625206.html Check the link.

I see good and bad in both being a part of a federation and not being affiliated. The good is that there should be some quality control when an instructor is affiliated to a good organization that enforces a standard. The bad is that some groups are not open minded and they even punish those that color outside of the lines. The good with not being affiliated with a federation is that you can be free to experiment and use what works from multiple systems in the same way martial arts was formed. The bad is that you have the opportunity for charlatans and other bad actors to promote something that's unworthy of being considered a martial art. If a marital artist is convinced that he doesn't need to use good judgment, because he can simply conjure up a "Chi ball" and throw it at his adversary, then his instructor might not be the kind of fellow I want teaching my kids martial arts. Oh yeah, to answer the question, I don't look down on the un-affiliated but I am instantly dubious. That comes from years of witnessing marital (con)-artist making the rest of us look bad. But being instantly dubious simply makes me curious about the background of the martial artist and his or her past affiliations and or lineage in martial arts. Every good martial artist has a story to tell, federation affiliated folks simply have a piece of paper to back up the story.