wildbourgman

I think the second part of this sentence is highly debatable but I agree I don't think the differences between JKA, SKIF and SKA should be that drastic. I would only debate if any Shotokan styles actually teach the Shotokan style as it was taught by Funakoshi. In my readings it looks like that Shotokan was changed by first by his son while he was still living and then even further by Masatoshi Nakayama, Teruyuki Okazaki, and others.

From what I've been told Kise brought in some things from Shorinji that was not in Soken's curriculum. Coffman seems like a straight shooter on some of his rants that I've but I heard that there was more to the story than he writes. Personally I don't think it's proper decorum to publish some of the things Coffman wrote even though I agree with many of them. I have a funny feeling that Isao Kise (Fuse's son) will put his mark on the system with even more changes. I dealt with that in Shotokan also where your Sensei goes to a camp and comes back with changes or adjustments where he was taught differently, possibly wrong or the hierarchy just decided that something was ineffective after decades of practicing it that way. To tie this in to the original question about Goju Ryu and Kenshin Kan Goju I'm sure this happens in all styles. There will be variations. I guess it's respectable to just create your own federation and teach it your way if you just can't live with the curriculum of the particular style your in. The other options are to just deal with something you feel is wrong or stay and sneak in your own techniques and practices which both seem unethical. When I first started training there were a lot of martial arts charlatans in the United States and there was also arrogance from systems like Shotokan due to the fact that there was so many obvious dojos basically committing fraud . The more I see now, the more I like. I see real karate and I see outreach between styles that will only enhance martial arts. Even a McDojo with proper guidance to the franchises and a proper curriculum can be much better than the charlatans of the 1970's and 1980's. You literally had people buying a karate book, some video tapes, a gi, a black belt and watch Bruce lee movies before setting up dojos. People were taking this like it was real and they were getting hurt. I've seen it and I've heard story after story laying this out, it was crazy. I really think we are on a better footing and going in the right direction. Having a traceable lineage doesn't mean good karate, but it makes it a whole lot easier for the sensei to show his root system has a real foundation.

That would be correct, Seiichi Akamine's Goju Ryu Ken-Shin-Kan, and Shorin Ryu Kenshin Kan under Fuse Kisei. I would suggest 'Kenshin' is the dojo name in this respect rather than a style. It's quite a common name written as either Shinken or Kenshin it mean "true/pure- fist/blade". K I guess that in the case of Fuse Kisei the "true/pure" part of his dojo name is because he has familial ties to the Matsumora's thru Hohan Soken.

So it appears that there are two Kenshin Kan groups, on in Shorin Ryu that I train in and one in Goju. The could be very confusing I guess.

It looks like everything will be based off of the WKF which isn't horrible. I would have liked to see a bit more equal opportunity for various karate styles and organizations to be involved in the decision process on who makes the team. Right now I guess that all styles and organizations will have to go to WKF sanctioned events in order to have a chance to make the world rankings and then possibly be invited to the Olympics. Now I think what I'm getting ready to say is profound, tell me if I'm wrong. In almost every other Olympic sport your have to worlds most talented competitors at that particular sport with a few exceptions, but in karate you could very possibly have several elite karate athletes that never even get an opportunity. Think about that how many Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps level folks run or swim around at that level and never get found, probably not many. How many awesome karate practicioners that happen to not either be in competition or not be associated with the WKF will get overlooked? Just to say it another way, we may have hundreds of Usain Bolts in Karate and only 80 get to compete, or we may have hundreds of top notch karate-ka that can watch the 2020 Olympics and say we have a guy at the Dojo that's better than that. How many other sports is that possible?

First off I've never been to Okinawa but I train Shotokan and Shorin Ryu which is a traditional Okinawan style. I've have class mates that go to Okinawa to train but they don't normally go unit 1st dan or sometimes 1st kyu so they can test for 1st dan. Personally I think it would be hard for a 5th kyu Shotokan student to get much out of going to Okinawa strictly for training purposes and expect to get much from it. If I were you I'd broaden the trip to include more cultural exchange. That's just my opinion. Personally my expectations for what a lower ranked Shotokan student can attain from such a trip would be in the cultural rather than building karate skill. The Okinawan skill set such as Shorin Ryo, Goju Ryu or other traditional Okinawan styles are somewhat difficult to adjust to and I'm thinking you might want to be better prepared for that prior to taking such an expensive trip. I'm not totally disagreeing with Zaine, it is the person not the rank but without knowing anything about you other than rank I'd say you should probably take more time prior to incurring the cost of a trip like that.

Just looking at the techniques and the kata (Sanchin and Hakutsuru) it sure appears that White crane was a significant contributor to Karate as a whole but it's much more pronounced in Okinawan styles. This history that I've read and been told show this to be the case, but common sense tells me that Okinawa's connection to China would have made it very possible to have this type of cross cultural exchange. Regardless of rock solid Historical proof style comparison says it all. There are a few documentaries that make this very clear.

I'm actually spending some time focusing attention on Tekki Nidan / Naihanchi nidan which I don't actually know yet. In Shotokan this is one of my next test katas and at the Shorin club I attend it's my children's next test kata. My kids and have been practicing the bunkai because that is part of the belt test at the Shorin club. Due to the odd number of students in class I got to be the bunkai dummy. I really enjoy the bunkai for this kata and I hope to be able to bring it back to my Shotokan friends when I train with them. Most of them don't know the many of the bunkai options for Tekki Nidan. So I've got some learning to do.

Mark me down on the "mixed feelings' side of the equation on this topic. In the big picture I don't think Karate in the Olympics changes any of the challenges or successes that karate has in front of it very much. The funny thing is that if Karate in the Olympics has great ratings (Which I don't expect) it could create new or more than likely exacerbate and drag out old problems. If Karate was to fail miserably as an Olympic sport I think it could force the sport karate community to get on board with the movement back toward self-defense training or just be totally irrelevant. An embarrassing failure would possibly reinforce the MMA community's grip on sport martial arts competition worldwide. I don't think it will fail or win big, I just don't think enough people will care either way, but a sport karate failure could mean a move in the right direction for karate in general.

I'm of Cajun French decent from South Louisiana and many of my Cajun brothers are short and stocky. South Louisiana has had some really good Shotokan karate-ka that were very short and very fast. My first instructor was a national champion and a world competitor and he is a very small statured fellow. My current Shotokan instructor is only slightly taller than my first instructor and he's very impressive in the ring and on the floor. I've have to admit I've seen some big guys in Shotokan ,but I've seen smaller folks too.

Relax, breathe, be very courteous to your opponent and the referee (judges), protect yourself at all times and most of all, have fun.

Can you give us more information about the club. Name, lineage, anything. I might be able to track some information down. I too come from a Shotokan background and now train in Shorin Ryu also. It's certainly a transition because of the little things. Big differences are easy it's the little habits and nuances that are now instinct that are hard to change.

Personally, I don't want to forget the spirit of how this thread was started. Karate in it's beginning is a mixed martial art, not to be confused with MMA the sport. I totally agree with Spartacus on many of those points he made. Although I do wonder how an extremely well trained karateka with all the tools and techniques that some styles teach (except weapons of coarse) would do in a no holds barred contest against a UFC star.

I think that many karate practitioners just aren't interested in actually taking part in these type of full contact combat sports. Many of us have a million reasons why we won't or can't. Now in the context of this thread I think MMA means that karate is mixed. It's not just striking and blocking. It's also throws, grappling, joint locks, escapes, and various other forms of fighting that it's currently not known for anymore. The video clip is showing people performing in MMA using moves that are used in karate. The human body can only do so much, so it's no surprise that people who practice hand to hand combat eventually use similar techniques regardless of what type of training they have. Back to your point, if I remember right the Gracie fellow that helped start the UFC was very upset when the UFC had to start banning some moves in order to not be outlawed. One of my favorite equalizers is small joint locks (fingers, wrist), I don't think all of that is allowed in UFC anymore.

I've probably posted this story a few times, but for those whom haven't read it here goes. I went to my first karate camp after many years of being out of training. I trained Japanese Karate as a kid and got back into it much later in life. When I started really talking to a lot of the folks at the camp many of them were dissatisfied with the direction of "karate". Some of the older and many of the younger students were talking about cross training and some were cross training in other grappling arts. One middle aged man said "man punching and kicking gets old". I went to three more camps in the next year and heard the same, and then I actually heard a shocking inter-session question and answer period break out into older instructors complaining about losing students to various MMA clubs. They were not complaining to just anyone, they were talking to one of the highest ranking and legendary instructors of this system. I was shocked. Now, I wasn't shocked at the truth that was being told, because I'd heard it before. I was shocked that they brought it out in the way that they did and in that forum. I had read many of the things that Jesse talks about in the article I posted, my Shorin Ryu instructor and I have talked about much of the same and I started thinking that there could be a fix to Japanese Karate's problems. Now for background when I was a kid the discussion I witnessed and any discussion about cross training would have been heretical. When I discussed some of the training I was doing with Okinawan karate I felt like I had to whisper. I actually gave one comment about my feelings during the discussion and one of the instructors that was asking how do we fix this problem didn't like my answer. "He said what are you saying we should water down this system". My reply was that it was already watered down many years ago. Now the funny thing is that the legendary instructor just smiled and listened to the debate and then he broke into a story about (cross) training with Hironori Ōtsuka the Wado Ryu founder. It was strange, because the story seemed to go way off topic, but that was at least the third story that this instructor told about Hironori Ōtsuka during that three day camp. I also found that strange because I hadn't heard him tell those stories in the other camps. I don't think many of the people listening to the discussion took away from that response that I did, but it seemed to me that this somewhat elderly legend gave us the answer it wasn't senility. Yes karate had changed over the years, yes some other styles have aspects of what was left behind and it's karate not religion. You can treat it like a buffet to some extent. Even he had cross trained with someone from another system just as was done in Okinawa before there were real defined systems. Now back to what Jesse wrote, I think that many of the styles (especially Japanese styles) that spend most of time training in striking can go back and look at the past and find the answer to their problems. If attendance is a problem, if marketing and finances are a problem, if you as a practitioner getting burned out is a problem read the history and find the roots of your system. Karate was and is the original MMA!

http://www.karatebyjesse.com/why-karate-is-broken/ This link is to an article that is a good addition to this discussion for those of you who haven't read it.

RW, I think you might be either over or under thinking some things. In my opinion horse stance in the modern age is mainly for strength and conditioning. I also think some stances are transitory as in that you might spend a fraction of a second in that stance while performing a technique. Although I have used that stance as a defensive posture while sparring and I can also see that stance being used in that same way just a shorter higher stance on the street. Blocking in the way you seem to envision it is simply basic. I too asked that same question as a Shotokan beginner but now I'm just starting to see that actual applications. I don't know if you will ever see nukite on the street but I can tell you that it's effective when applied correctly to the correct part of your body. It hurts like heck. All of this stuff wasn't made up without reason and from the stories I've read and heard Okinawan and early Japanese practitioners fought in the streets a lot more than the Dojo Kun would have you believe. Some of this takes tons of practice to feel competent in and maybe that's the real question. Are these techniques realistic with the amount of time modern people have to practice them? Can we garner more interest in Karate when the apparent real pay off of our training doesn't come for years with many students? I think the pay off comes much sooner but not for those that want instant mastery.

https://www.facebook.com/SouthAlabamaKarate Are you affiliated with the JKA?

JKA Shotokan is a very athletic style with linear movement initially, they do teach tai sabaki in the higher ranks. The concept that Shotokan has that's different than other styles I've seen is using a strong direct one strike to end a fight. They do use combinations but it's normally to help enter or disguise the ultimate game ender. Shotokan is very good for people who want vigorous exercise, learning and perfecting strong strikes, and enjoying sport karate. I personally don't think that Shotokan is a very good style to grow old with because it depends on speed and power to be very effective. Much to my surprise I've even heard a Japanese 9th dan (one of the few in JKA) make something close to that very point at a camp. I love Shotokan and still train in it but I can see as I get older my effectiveness will come from being wise, calm, and using timing rather than trying to out speed and out muscle a 25 year old. So ask yourself what am I looking for? Are you looking for exercise? Are you looking for strong powerful striking practice? Are you looking for to go to tournaments and compete? If so Shotokan is right for you.

We have changed our structure from white belt to black belt and it totally reinvigorated our dojo. For instance at white belt we still start with Kihon, so you learn to walk, block, punch and kick properly as normal in most clubs. Second we start with basic bunkai kumite that correlates with your level of kata. Only then do you learn the kata, so that you remember the bunkai kumite that you were taught. This stops kata from just being a dance. I like this adjustment so far and I think the rest of the students do to.

Regardless, of how Sensei Asai came to be the innovator that he was, the outcome is the same. As far as my debate point in this discussion on how to make the future of karate a good one, Asai was probably considered a non-traditionalist and was looked at poorly by some. Myself, I highly doubt that the influences that Sensei Asai obviously had around him in Hawaii and Taiwan didn't seriously affect his style. Almost every genius in every art has been influenced and has had artistic changes due to those new influences, I doubt Asai was immune to that. That's not a knock on any artist it's just a natural outcome of life. Whether Asai picked up Kung Fu or not is beyond my point. I think that Karate is at a major inflection point where we need to decide how we are going to handle to future and Asai helped the cause. In saying that I really want to learn more of Asai's style and incorporate that into what I work on. My instructors instructor says that you keep what works and toss out what doesn't.

Not sure if that was Asai original intention. How did you get this story? No, your right but I don't know if any of us are sure of Asai's original intention. The JKA's stated intention for him going to Taiwan was for him to teach Shotokan. Check the story in the link below. Regardless Asai's intent it seems like he trained a good bit in Kung Fu well prior to starting his own federation. From what I've seen of Asai Karate it sure looks like something other than JKA Shotokan rubbed off on him. http://asaikarate.com/why-does-asai-senseis-butt-stick-out-%E6%B5%85%E4%BA%95%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F%E3%80%81%E9%AA%A8%E7%9B%A4%E3%81%AE%E4%BD%8D%E7%BD%AE%E3%81%AE%E8%AC%8E/

I don't know for sure about the pain except for poor mechanics but I may have a couple of ideas. 1. First stand in a natural position facing forward and do a front kick without putting the kicking leg down after snapping back. 2. Then with the same kicking leg chambered after the front kick was snapped back, perform your side kick from that position at a 90 degree angle from where the front kick was directed. 3. Bring the side kick back to the chambered position and then put it back on the ground with control. That should get you the proper starting and ending position for you kick and hopefully the proper position helps with the pain. Another thing you can do to force the proper position is to attempt to perform your side kick over the seat of a chair that is right in front of you. That forces you to bring the leg up and then over the chair and back down again rather than trying to sling your leg out from the side and dropping it. To me proper mechanics can prevent pain.

Junro kata was developed by Sensei Asai in the JKS Shotokan offshoot. Sensei Asai was an amazing innovator and one of the things he did in order to shake things up was to go back to Karate's roots in Taiwan to learn White Crane Kung Fu. So that's one heck of a concept, innovation by going and digging deep into the past!

Here's the thing, for instance what is a Shotokan Traditionalist ? Is a Shotokan traditionalist a practitioner that only practices what Gichin Funakoshi taught, or is it what was taught by Masatoshi Nakayama? At what point do you say the tradition started, because there is a bunch of difference between what was practiced by Funakoshi and Nakayama and even what is practiced by traditional JKA Shotokan today. I know many traditional Shotokan instructors that think they practice exactly what Funakoshi taught, then show them pictures of Funakoshi teaching weapons, throws, and tuite and they are dumbfounded. Was tradition started with Tode Sakugawa, the Mastumoras, or was it in 1960 something when some American GI was stationed in Japan or Okinawa? Tradition is a very vague and arbitrary term and I also think it's often misguided. Many of the modern day so called "traditionalist" don't even know that Karate is a blended martial art to begin with, do they think it started exactly like they were taught? I would also dare say your going to find it hard to locate any technique in any modern fighting art that wasn't used in some way or fashion, by some old school karate practitioners, at some dojo, at some point in time.