wildbourgman

Well today our Shorin dojo starts doing it's part. We have a few Shotokan and possibly some Tae Kwon Do folks coming to cross train in tuite. We really hoped it could have been a larger group but it is what it is. In my view we just need to go back to our roots and then market our roots of traditional karate as the original mixed martial art that it truly was in Okinawa.

I think Karate's future is going to found in it's past and it will be fine if people understand the history. While at multiple karate camps I've heard some of the older attendees (most of them being instructors) complain about losing students to BJJ and MMA and they also worried about the future of Karate. Now these were older Shotokan instructors with very little knowledge of anything other than Shotokan and probably Tae Kwon Do or Tang So do. I replied to them that I thought Shotokan should open up and find some aspects that many Japanese styles lost when Sport Karate gained popularity in mainland Japan long after it left Okinawa. One of the instructors asked me angrily "So your answer is to water down our style? ". My reply is that it was watered down at some point after Funakoshi and others got to Japan. If you look at the numbers and the unbelievable popularity of sport karate that took place it's hard to disagree with what the Japanese pulled off, but now with MMA's popularity it might be time to look for the answer to karate's future. In my what I'm seeing Okinawan Karate in (which Shotokan and others came from) is more like a mixed martial art rather than primarily a striking art. In my Shorin ryu club we learn take downs, throws (judo), joint locks, how to transition into a head lock or a guillotine (jujitsu and wrestling), effective striking with punches and kicks (boxing and kick boxing). Bringing back effective techniques that were part of your style's origin is not watering down a style or even entire martial art such as Karate. So to me that's' the answer to Karate's future will be found in it's past if we just look for it.

I would like a martial arts radio on satellite radio and the internet. I'm talking all martial arts from boxing to tai chi. Multiple shows on multiple disciplines and competitive martial arts, talk shows, informative shows and call in shows. I would enjoy that more than a blog.

Precept Number 17 from Gichin Funakoshi's TWENTY PRECEPTS 17. Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced. Deep stances are used in actual fighting even in other styles but you don't live in them.

I think that some Ippon kumite competitions allow takedowns but you have to perform it cleanly and within seconds of a clinch or they restart you. You don't get the point for the takedown (which I would prefer also) but for the strike after your opponent it down. According to my memory even MMA no longer allows Tuite's small joint locks and/or ju-jitsu's small circle techniques with fingers and such and I agree with that rule. Someone please let me know if I'm wrong about that being the case.

That's possible but my main point it that these grappling techniques and drills are karate and it's not martial arts heresy for practitioners to go back to their roots in order to compete. In dojo's that operate as a business (and not a hobby) they must compete and they must market a competent martial art that works in various situations. I think dojo's that are basically a hobby should look at this too, but they might not fail economically due to not providing a comprehensive self defense system. I don't think we are always providing a similar comprehensive self defense system in todays Karate like the one the Okinawan's brought to Japan. I know too many instructors that are deathly afraid to do something new, because they think they are just turning on their original style of karate. I want to comfort them into realizing that their Karate has much more in it's tradition than what may have been taught to them. It's ok to go deeper.

You have to remember that Okinawans that went to Japan such as Funakoshi already had immense and deep knowledge of grappling. Karate as many people know it today dropped many of these techniques when Karate was implemented in Japanese schools and when Sport karate became wildly popular in Japan and eventually Worldwide. I also think that the Okinawan masters once in Japan did not want to disrespect the native Ju-jistu and Judo practitioners by competing with similar techniques. I know that many of my Shotokan friends are rather unhappy and perplexed about competition with MMA and Brazilian Ju-jitsu. I think we should reflect back to the beginning of Karate, striking and sport karate (which I really enjoy) are not filling this void for many practitioners. I see this void being filled by people like Steve Ubl and Ian Abernathy just to name a couple. Many of the foundational Okinawan styles which played second fiddle to the sports styles are also being revisited as they should be.

There were blue jeans marketed buy Chuck Norris sold by Century in the 1980's that had this very concept.

In the Shorin Ryu style that I'm in we have a Pinan Sandan kata which is very close the Shotokan's Heian Sandan. Sounds to me that either of those founders, one or the other...or both, desired to have their 'Kata' unique to their new founded style. Separate to show themselves different, yet at the same time, still effective in the new changes. Well the first three Pinan katas in the Shorin style I'm in are close to the same Shotokan Heian katas with the first two being flipped in order. The next two yandan and godan are very different between the two styles Empi (Shotokan) and Wansu (Okinawan styles) in these two styles are very different, although there are some techniques where you can see the connection. I love to watch all the variations of kata that are sourced from the same places but end up with so many different variations. It's kind of like following a story or gossip that gets changed from one story teller to the next and by the time is gets passed around the story is hardly connected to the original source. It's probably amazing that the different versions of kata are as close as they are.

In the Shorin Ryu style that I'm in we have a Pinan Sandan kata which is very close the Shotokan's Heian Sandan.

Once again Judodad I have good news and bad news. I've heard that the Kenshin Kan federation somewhat frowns on official postings of video on the internet although you can find a bit of videos so that as an official resource might be difficult. Now the good news is that other Okinawan styles do have video of Fukyu Kata ichi. Finding Fukyu kata ni and san might be difficult but they are so close to each other that it shouldn't be necessary. What Kanshin kan calls fukyu kata ni international is called Gekisai-dai-ichi in Goju Ryu so that can be found easily. Kensin Kan's version of Wansu is going to be difficult to find, I'm not sure about anything from there.

I think Master Ken would say a McDojo is a place to play games before getting your butt kicked!

Of course not--I'm the last person to steer someone away from old-school Okinawan karate! No not you, I was talking about me sounding like, I would steer anyone away from Okinawan karate. For that matter I wouldn't steer anyone away from Japanese karate unless they expressed something that made me believe they would fit better in another style.

Yes the back and forth is fun for as for me though my poor cardio prevents me from enjoying it as I would have 25 years ago and even then my cardio wasn't my strong suit. I only know of Kenshin Kan using that format for Sparring, I'm sure others use it but I haven't been exposed to them. Yes Wastelander, Master Fusei Kise is the founder of that system. I agree it's not exactly tournament oriented and I love tournaments, but I wouldn't steer anyone away from that system. I really appreciate how I'm growing by learning Okinawan karate.

Judodad, I'm sure that private lessons would help, also I think the Goju Ryu systems in you area have some tournaments and that could be a closer fit. I think your kids could pick up on what the differences are simply by going to a tournament, compete and watch. Once they take in and even feel what's expected they will figure it out. Kids are good like that. For my kids I try to blend the intricacies and focused self defense minded style of Kenshin Kan Shorin Ryu with the explosive and dynamic aspects of Shotokan. One of the main differences between the styles, as far as sparring is that kenshin Kan ends up being more back and forth in closer quarters and Japanese point sparring has more distance between opponents where you don't want to get touched by your opponent if possible. Many people debate which style of kumite is more realistic, I think they both have flaws and strengths as it applies to in real life self defense. In the Kenshin kan version you get hit and you hit back and whomever did better wins. Because it's supposed to be controlled sparring there is no mechanism to point out the consequence of attacks you or your opponent performed. So in a real fight you may have been knocked out by the first contact, but in this style of sparring if you do better for the rest of the 2 minutes, you win. I don't think that's a good approach for teaching martial artist. Now, in point karate, yes they do stop the action to recognize a devastating shot, but they stop the action too often and the flow of a real fight is never felt by the karate-ka. Often Karate-ka eventually get a feel for what wins points and that's all they do. I've seen very fast, very talented Shotokan champions solely rely on the reverse punch. The advanced point sparring karate-ka will eventually start and stop on their own, when they think a point should have been awarded and they pose with the reverse punch hand chambered as they back away from the attack. Now that's something you wouldn't do to a mugger, but how do you turn it on and off when that's how you train? I would love to see a blending of these styles of kumite where devastating blows are recognized by the referee without stopping the action and where defensive and offensive prowess both are judged after the fight is complete. I think you would get a more complete picture of who the winner was without instilling poor self defense habits in the karate-ka.

Shotokan From 11 years old to 16 years old. I started Shorin Ryu and re-started training Shotokan for the last two years from 40 to 42 years old.

Well Judodad the bad news is that if your son's kenshin kan dojo is the same one that I'm affiliated with they only have one tournament a year in Tyler Texas and it's a rather small one. The other bad news is that many of the tournaments available are point sparring and kata competitions that doesn't lend itself to kenshin kan's stylistic differences. I grew up going to AAU and Shotokan tournaments and it's sad but Japanese styles had a built in advantage over Okinawan or Korean styles in open tournaments because the judges in those tournaments were mainly affiliated with Japanese styles. Kenshin Kan Shorin Ryu doesn't focus on point sparring at all and when they spar it's continuous action until the time limit is up then a winner is chosen. Point sparring is a different animal. Kenshin Kan's katas will have a hard time being appreciated in open tournaments regardless how well they are performed, due to more soft techniques along with much higher stances it's just not as flashy. Many people I know in Okinawan styles use the term "Sport Karate" as a pejorative. Now if all of that hasn't changed your mind as it hasn't changed mine. I'm sure you can find AAU and other tournaments for your kids. I can private message you some that we have in Louisiana. I have two sons and a daughter that take Kenshin Kan they performed well in the Tyler Texas tournament and I'm wanting them to attend some open tournaments, but I know that if they are going to really compete they are going to have to adjust to point sparring and tweak their kata performances in order to have a fighting chance.

I currently train Shorin Ryu and Shotokan. It can be confusing but I'm learning to separate the differences when necessary and combine the styles when possible. My first style was Shotokan in which I have reached Shodan , I'm getting ready to test for 6th kyu in Shorin Ryu. I find that Shorin Ryu has much more material to learn, tuite, kobudo, free hand kihon, and kata as well as other parts of the training. I know there is a dojo in my old home town that teaches both Shorin Ryu and Shotokan at the same time and they seem to be doing fine. There are differences, I think that the differences can be confusing but I think they can eventually compliment both styles. In my view Shotokan and Shorin Ryu practitioners can be more well rounded martial artist if they can master the differences that I think fill the gaps of both styles.

Kusotare, I've not made an opinion about whether this bunkai would be effective in the manner that it was shown on the clip but I don't think anyone of late is reverse engineering jujutsu techniques into karate kata. What they are doing is finally finding the movements that are similar or even the same as jujutsu that were dropped from many Japanese and some Okinawan karate styles in order to focus on sport. Joint manipulation and throws were a very important part of Karate and IMHO the Okinawan karate styles and some Japanese styles are refocusing on this. The change in focus is probably due to the success of jujutsu and especially BJJ , I have no problem with that. For example I know a few Shotokan instructors that are admittedly having problems competing with other styles of martial arts for students. I for one hope that Karate can meet the needs of future and current students by rediscovering the part of the system that was cast aside rather than "reverse engineering jujutsu".

How much, on an average, do you pay the JKA Shotokan club per class you attend?? I like how that's working for you when you're traveling; interesting concept!! 10 dollars per class during regular class time and 20 dollars per hour for private classes.

I've previously posted this elsewhere but it applies here too. I have a definition that I use that separates confidence and arrogance because I think many people confuse the two. Arrogance is when you are confident but lack any evidence our logical reasoning that you should have any confidence at all. In my opinion the quote "It ain't bragging if you can do it." is very true. In the similar but opposite vein if you know that your going to be beat prior to any conflict you should choose other means, including tactical retreat. I'm sure Sun Tzu probably speaks on that subject.

I really like the idea of "receiving" rather than blocking. I also like the discussion of confidence and over confidence. I have a definition that I use that separates confidence and arrogance because I think many people confuse the two. Arrogance is when you are confident but lack any evidence our logical reasoning that you should have any confidence at all. In my opinion the quote "It ain't bragging if you can do it." is very true. In the similar but opposite vein if you know that your going to be beat prior to any conflict you should choose other means, including tactical retreat. I'm sure Sun Tzu probably speaks on that subject.

I also travel for work. When at home I attend a Shorin Ryu club when I travel I attend a JKA Shotokan club that I only pay for the classes I attend. I've made contact with other dojos in my normal work area so I can attend classes and pay as I go as I do with my Shotokan club. I love getting all the varied approaches even within the same system.

One of my Shorin Ryu classmates performed this kata at a mostly Shotokan tournament this weekend. He competed in two different parts of the tournament, in the first attempt he did well but lost to a Shotokan practitioner when most of us thought it wasn't even close. But the judges were all Shotokan and not familiar with that version of the kata. Before his second attempt I coached him a little on what Shotokan JKA judges might want to see. I told him to slow down, accentuated the pauses, focus his last technique on the combinations and breath out with each technique that he accentuated simply for sound affects. Also I told him that unlike most Okinawan katas where we are taught to be light on your feet, being heavy on your feet gives another sound affect that might help in Japanese focused tournament. Well he did some of what I told him and he came in second amongst a larger group of contestants and was barely beat by a practitioner that performed a solid Bassai Dai. I still think he should have won, but the outcome was much closer to correct. He actually beat the guy that he lost to in the earlier match by a huge margin, making you wonder what the earlier judges were looking at. I find it funny that the few of the pointers I gave him in order to look better to Shotokan-centric judges are the same points that was posted here. Slow down, accentuate the pauses, and breath.

Crissyp, I'd be willing to bet any group in the area that plans MMA or Boxing matches could lead you in the right direction. No need to re-invent the wheel.