wildbourgman

Completely agree that this is the best answer to Wastelander's question. In our organization we recently had some leadership changes that came with some training changes that seemed very strange. For instance we change many of our kyu level katas to one count for each step regardless of how it used to flow before. As well as other changes that didn't seem to make since. For a months we thought this was just the new way things are going to be done for all ranks. New leader new rules, right? After the next seasonal training camp it was explained that the new ways were set up so the instructors could see each step and make corrections in a large crowd and it was also mainly the new way to teach beginners. It seems that the multiple moves being done in some katas were very sloppy and not even the correct move. The instructors couldn't see it and fix that in" real time". So yeah it did not seem practical to practice this way but there was a good reason for it. If you translate this into how things were done years ago think about the pictures of Okinawan and Japanese training sessions with huge groups. I could see sparring getting chaotic to the point that these one and three step sparring drills were necessary. In both of the styles I have trained in these types of drills get more and more advanced. You walk before you run.

I have a very similar story. I was a 1st kyu in Shotokan and I paused my training at 16 years old until my early 40's. I started training as much as I could with my unusual work schedule. In one year I achieved my Shodan. During that time and since I started training Shorin Ryu and have achieved 4th Kyu. I'm 47 now.

For some real world results on what happens when toe kicks are used watch Alexander Volkov defeat Roy Nelson in the UFC. It was done with authority and it was effective.

I our Shorin Ryu class we train to use the ball of the foot until you feel comfortable using your toes depending on the target. With shoes on you don't worry about whether or not your conditioned enough to utilize your toes you just kick. In the JKA Shotokan class I attend they do not teach toe kicks, they use the ball of the foot and the top of the foot depending on the target.

Don't get me wrong I'm not defending anything and everything Dillman. I'm just using him as an example because he's known. IF he had anything legit he ruined it for himself and anyone attached to him. I have checked out his pressure point book a little and some of the stuff was pretty good, but that all goes down the same drain. There is something I heard the other day that kind of relates to that. If you take a drum of sewage and add one glass of a very old and expensive wine, what is it now? ................Sewage! If you take a barrel of very old and expensive fine wine and add a glass of sewage to it, what is it now? ...............Sewage!

Maturity, I agree that's a good starting point. In this day and age that might be getting harder to come by.

This was alluded to and debate by some others on this thread and I understand both sides. I've been on both sides where being a novice at sport karate hurt me in what I'll loosely call a self defense situation ( I deserved what I got) but on the other hand I have had situations where sports karate training helped me much more than having no training at all. I do think there is a place for having a good grasp on longer range fighting as I learned in Shotokan karate and even longer range when practicing with some of my TKD friends. I think that it's very helpful as I learn close quarters fighting techniques such as in Matsumura Shorin Ryu, which I agree is more realistic for in a high percentage of situations.

What I find sad about this entire issue is the fraud that comes from people that once had a legitimate background. These people like Dillman ruin all the hard work and accomplishments they may have done in the past. For instance Dillman's work on pressure points was extensive, but where is that now? It's fruit of the poisoned tree. Many Karate organizations, instructors and dojos are marketed by their lineage so if you are a legit instructor that is connected to one of these folks that go completely off the rails, where does that leave you? I've not only seen this problem with Chi knockouts and other types of fraud but with sexual abuse, stolen valor and other criminal acts by higher ranking instructors or heads of martial arts organizations. In Louisiana where I'm from all Karate was put under a black cloud due to one instructor that abused a child back in the 1980's. That case made national news for other reasons when the child's father shot the instructor in a Jack Ruby styled attack. I'd like to know how many instructors have been effected by situations like this. I know one in particular that had to basically whitewash all connections to his very knowledgeable high ranking instructor, with a exemplary background, due to a totally unnecessary stolen valor issue.

I agree with this thought process. I've seen videos where Ian Abernethy gave explanation to parts of old school karate kata that made you think "what in the heck is that used for in the real world?" and he correlated it to what we would do instinctually as humans. Then he takes what you would do on crude instinct with no training and polishes it into a effective karate technique. To me that makes since, take what your going to do anyway and make it work when possible and then work on fixing the instinctive actions that we don't want you to do in a self defense situation. For instance if someone takes a swing at you, most untrained people are going to cover the area that is being targeted, back up or even turn around. You convert that into a more effective block, parry or other technique and now your beginner student doesn't look like a fish out of water. In that scenario the covering up is a good starting point, but you don't want the student backing straight up or giving the attacker their back so that part of the instinct needs to be fixed. Only after this do you start to work on a counter. The progression starts from where your at, in doing that you can have a beginner walk out the door after the first class without going backwards.

I think that some might shy away from this question as not to endorse a style or offend our friends here of other styles but I like the question and I've talked about this with other martial artist myself. I started in Shotokan karate as a kid, quit organized training for many years and came back to it as a middle aged adult. In the organization I was a part of nothing much had changed in at least over twenty years except for the age and size of the group, it was smaller and older. Many of the guys that I idolized when I was young were still around and they still trained the same way regardless of physical skill. Many of these folks were certainly not what they once were as expected and a few of them were disillusioned with what they had been doing especially with the rise of MMA, Jujitsu and other martial arts. Age and injuries in a "hard style" were one of many aspects of their disillusionment. Now back to the question. I think that a really effective martial arts style is one that you can grow old with, where wisdom and skill grow to take the place of the youth, power, speed and timing as it naturally disappears. That is why I appreciate many of the Okinawan arts. Here is my opinion and I'm not trying to many anyone angry but IMHO Shotokan, Tang Soo do, TKD, boxing, Judo, Kyokushin, ETC are not for older people especially if you are not already training in those styles. In saying that I give my self a caveat and say lot depends on the instructor, I'm simply generalizing because of the way the question was asked. I will agree that Tai Chi for one would be a good choice for the elderly and people with injuries. Yes, I think there are styles that can better suit someone's age more than others, but I also think there are styles that one can start young and grow old with while gaining new strengths to take the place of fading ones. To me find those styles and your on the right track.

Ok I see what you are saying One Kick Wonder and I don't disagree. I'm not sure that you answered the question he was asking directly, but you certainly got around to it along with Bushido man. As I child and new karate-ka in Shotokan karate I tried to use my karate in a fight in the way One Kick Wonder explains, it's didn't go well for me. I think using martial arts as self defense actually takes on many forms. Most of those forms come by giving you self awareness, humility, and the ability to confidently not have to ever lay your hands on anyone in order to stay safe.

One kick wonder, I'm confused at your reply it seems as though your saying you should not use karate in self defense, but you instinctively will use karate in self defense. Can you expand on that?

I'll let dictionary define mastering the basics. Yes there will be differing opinions. Some think the word mastered is too much and some think it's not enough, but remember I'm talking about just the basics. In most styles that's punching, kicking, walking, blocking (receiving) ETC. In my view after black belt is where the good stuff starts. That's why I hate to see people get to shodan and quit like they have finished because they have only just begun. Master 1.acquire complete knowledge or skill in (an accomplishment, technique, or art). 2.having or showing very great skill or proficiency. 3.a skilled practitioner of a particular art or activity. Basic 1.forming an essential foundation or starting point; fundamental. 2.the essential facts or principles of a subject or skill. 3,offering or consisting in the minimum required without elaboration or luxury; simplest or lowest in level,

To me becoming a black belt means that at a minimum you have mastered the basics of your particular style. You might want to add more to that criteria but mastering the basics should be the minimum.

In my view a lot of it is common sense. 1. You train to be as fast as possible getting the kick up, out, back and down just like any other kick. Getting it out and on target quickly makes it effective and getting it back and down lowers the risk of either getting your leg caught, or being off balance due to being on one foot. 2. As I alluded to in number one practice getting on target. If you can't hit the target you can't be effective. 3. Know when to and when not to use certain techniques, practice timing and fight scenarios, so your body reacts instinctively when you see the opening. If you have to think about it you are probably too late. You can use faints and other techniques to open your opponent but you have to react to what you see and that takes work. 4. Have humility and know where you are in your martial arts journey and that does mean comparing your self to other people you might have to utilize your training on. I had a 50 something year old white belt with numerous ailments ask me how long before he could defend himself and I told him that if his training simply made it clear to him where he was physically and made him aware of his shortcomings, that in itself is a form of self-defense. In other works if in his first few months he gained the knowledge and wisdom to see a possible situation that possibly pitted himself against a 20 year old muscled up brute and he then took extra actions to prevent a conflict, that is a win. So if you can't perform a front kick in a way that's going to help make a bad situation better or possibly make it much worse you need to know that, accept it, and keep training until that reality changes.

I get the reason for the question about being limited by one style, but there are styles that have many aspects of various other martial arts. In my opinion some Okinawan martial arts for instance might have too many things to attempt to focus on for modern day folks that work, have families and or go to school. In my Shorin Ryu class we train in striking, grappling, throws, and multiple weapons. It's never boring, but the focus on being very good at one thing is not always there. For instance in Shotokan karate there was much more ability to get really good at striking. So it's a trade off, which one do you prefer? But you can be a purist in some styles and get one stop shopping that offers a multitude of fighting disciplines.

I know that some styles have slow movements where others have fast moves in the same kata. For instance the opening two moves in Pinan Yandan, in some Okinawan styles those moves are fast where as in Shotokan it's very slow. Why, I tend agree as many others here, sometimes for no reason other than show and other times because it's not a strike but something else such as a tuite technique.

I think the second version your referring to is using "kime". I don't think either technique is wrong, it's situational. If your using oi zuki in a combination you may not use as much or any kime depending which part of the combination it is. Some techniques flow directly into others, the oi zuki may be a decoy or throw away technique to help cover you while you cover distance. In fundamental training on the floor if oi zuki is the lone or last technique in the sequence I'm sure using the slight snap back or focus (kime) is proper. Kime is a commonly used Japanese martial arts term. In karate it can mean "power" and/or "focus," describing the instantaneous tensing at the correct moment during a technique.

I know that I've neglected the physical training aspects of martials especially that aspect in my first martial art. I also think that with some systems losing those things that comes with old age gets replaced with skill and wisdom. For instance when your 30 years old with kids and a good job you might not be as spry as a 18 years old when it comes to fighting, but your wise enough and skilled enough not to be put in situations where fighting is as necessary. I think that some martial arts are even more developed in that if you keep training it takes less athleticism, speed and power to achieve the goal of self defense. You might even gain the wisdom and humility to look at a muscled up fire cracker that's looking for trouble, self evaluate your skill set and decide to go in another direction. You learn your limitations through training and you should develop humility in most Eastern martial arts. So the things that I've truly lost are mostly lost for good due to my age. For instance I used to do a pretty fancy jumping spinning crescent kick when I was 16. If I really tried that today I would be in the emergency room, seriously. Now could I at 44 make the 16 years old version of myself tap out, yeah!

Try taking a nukite to the lower outer pectoral muscle. It hurts like the Dickens. That's one way we practice it. I think the neck, the pec and possibly driving it deep into the armpit could be good targets for a nukite.

My first instructor Blair Portier was pretty darn good in point competition.

Wildbourgman Kai do Ryu is the only real karate! The question is very subjective, so humor is my only answer.

Done!

In my teen years I was fairly good at high kicks but now that I'm older I may have lost a bit of flexibility. Even with that I have periodically been known to perform head kicks while sparring. I don't why I can't seem to pull off the head kicks during fundamental training. For instance I once performed a nice head kick to a higher ranking student after I accidently did a spinning back kick to his groin (my aim was for ribs). Head kicks are so easy when your opponent is grapping his crouch while on his knees crying. There was also the time I head kicked a real solid 8 year old green belt. That was a really proud feeling when his head gear went sideways. A few people let out a gasp after showing my athleticism, even his mom was screaming for me. Although I think I pulled my hamstring on that one.

This reply may not have anything to do with your post but the term "watering down" hits home with me. I originally coming from a Japanese style that was "watered down" from Okinawan traditional martial arts. I had commented during a discussion with elder instructors from the Japanese art that were complaining about BJJ and other MMA schools taking students from them. I said maybe they could look at some of the Okinawan arts for grappling techniques to supplement what they teach. Then one of the complainers said "what should we do, water down our system?" I was respectful and said nothing, because all I instantly knew to say was that he was the one complaining and looking for answers and if he knew the history of his art, he would also know when and how it was watered down which is causing his problems today. So rather than not having a better reply I allowed others to answer him in a more proper way than I was prepared for. As to your question, Shorin Ryu being your foundation has many aspects to pick from that should keep you busy, but you can successfully supplement it with other systems as needed. That supplementation won't adversely affect the structure that you are building on if your foundation is solid!