sojobo

Hi Robert and thank you for your response. I'll be honest, I'm not the greatest lover of people that have "created" their own style - as you can probably tell from my bio, I am a student (and have been for many decades) of traditional Japanese martial arts. There are no sensei that I have trained with - Japanese or otherwise - that are above 9th dan. None of them are referred to as soke or shihan. Those are more easily found outside of Japan it would appear. But, if needs must... Sojobo

Stubborn masters may know better than you?

It would actually make an excellent grappling kata. Right out the gate it would be a break, grab and elbow to the face. Reload to throw them off balance and the throw them over to your left as you punch their face. Side step as you stomp on their face, block, double block, punch, throw them to your left. It's not exactly how I imagine it works while going through it but it certainly could work beautifully that way. Taking it one step further than just basic blocks to basic strikes. I find Wado's Jujitsu influence makes the Kata more usable in grappling than Shotokan's Tekki Shodan version! Grappling is anything where you and your opponent have a grip on each other. Now using the "Jujitsu/Judo Randori Waza" you can see, Twists, Rear Naked Chokes, Body Scissors, Throws, Sweeps and Strikes all part of grappling, I can see stand-up techniques and groundworking techniques all in the same kata. Its why I believe Otsuka Sensei decided why only 1 of the 3 Naihanchi kata was required as it would take a lifetime to learn all the techniques in the first Kata. I know Iain Abernethy touches on the grappling part of This kata but then again there are some WadoKa who don't feel Iain's Wado a Pure System. Iain Abernethy's interpretation of kata like Naihanchi is not Wado. He will tell you the same thing. It is my understanding that Naihanchi exists for different reasons in terms of Wado pedagogy. Sojobo

Yes, I study Submission Wrestling, I didn't really want to label myself but have updated my profile to reflect this. There are no grades, and I'm not writing a book, I just wanted some people to list some sources, that's all. OK Now I know how to place my response to you. Naihanchi, Tekki Shodan Kata is a "Grappling" or "Wrestling" form. but can be used for striking too (see "Crane sequence" in Casino Royale). there are lots of manipulations of joints, headlocks, takedowns and other sweeps involved in the kata. Definately look at either Iain Abernethy's DVD on the Form, Also look at the Kissaki DVD of the form too. For Books any that are available will be fine just "amend" the techniques where a "karate" attack is involved. I would contact Iain and ask if you could attend a seminar on Naihanchi Kata locally to you as this would be the best avenue for you to follow to get to know what the kata is about Good luck in your research Hi Dobbersky You mentioned earlier you studied the Wado version of Naihanchi. Can I ask, what makes you come to the assumption that it is a grappling kata? That is not what I understand as its function. Sojobo

Welcome to Karateforums. I have a couple of questions for you: You say you studied Nippon Jujutsu. That is a term generally reserved for arts that derive from the Koryu of feudal Japan. What style did you study, how long for and who taught you? Who awarded you your grades? You say you have been training for 32 years. Then later in your post you say you have been teaching for 32 years. How long were you a student prior to becoming a teacher (I understand that teaching is part of learning but you know what I mean)? Sorry if this doesn't come over as the warmest of welcomes, but I just think prospective students aren't getting enough info here (ie your web site). Being inducted into a hall of fame is no measure of how good someone is at martial arts. Also - there are people on this board that are very knowledgeable about martial arts. There are also some high ranking and graded martial artists too, but they do not see the need to sign off their posts with their grade and "Shogo" title - it means nothing here. I look forward to hearing more from you Robert. Sojobo

As my instructor once told us - when you are kyu grades you are "collectors" of techniques. At dan grade, it is not so much collecting as "realising" what you have picked up. ... and that is a lonely journey at time. Re: class numbers, in my Koryu dojo there is often only two of us that train. I take this as a positive, as I am getting more of my instructor’s time. Numbers tend to pick up in the new year - so maybe that will be the boost the club needs. Sojobo

Good advice there. Sojobo

In the Wado-ryu version, the right hand performs shuto-uchi to chudan (knife hand strike with tips of fingers pointing upward). The keisetsu for this is often demonstrated as a brace against the front of the shoulder joint. Sojobo

I think you've already come up with one of the most plausible theories: Sojobo

They are generally referred to as "Idori" techniques. This is my Daito-ryu instructors group performing it at an embu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBk9wK6fh44 And that's fine - it isn't for everyone. Hope you are enjoying the holidays. Sojobo

Mokuso? Yes, that is part and parcel. Nothing to do with god. Sojobo

Out of interest, do you train in a Karate-gi? Sojobo Good question Sojobo! I do train in a Gi and it is a White Gi not a Black (or other Colour) Gi or one of these "Freestyle" Gi's that are on the market. My reason is that the techniques we practice a Gi is perfect to take the "punishment" that we give them And.. I guess you are unlikely to be wearing your gi outside the dojo etc - where you could require your self defense skills? Point is, seiza is no more a cultural ethos than a Karate-gi. Seems people are happy to use those quite a bit still... especially with a spangly black belt. Sojobo

Out of interest, do you train in a Karate-gi? Sojobo

Do you think Karate would be better without it? If so, I'd like to understand your reasoning why. Sojobo I do, because I think that there are more important positions to develop skills from than being on the knees. I also think that just because it was a popular way to sit in the days of feudal Japan, doesn't necessarily lend itself to being meaningful in our current day and age. I've real all you've said about it developing posture and what not, but in using some of tallgeese's examples of other styles that don't train it, I don't think it adds anything of value that can't be learned by observing proper posture in other combative stances and positions. Interesting. If you trained in Karate you may have different views. Something like seiza is very difficult to appreciate in isolation. Thanks for your reply. Sojobo

IMO, that's what makes Karate a martial art and not merely self defense. It's an integral part of Budo, and actually, takes no time at all... But to each their own I guess. Sojobo

Actually, it’s not as farfetched as it seems. In my earlier post, I tried to explain how “correctly” sitting in seiza can benefit your Karate (in terms of centre of mass and movement etc.) as opposed to sitting in seiza badly. If your weight is not in the right place – it is hard to move from seiza into the next technique. Whilst I understand that different muscle groups come into play, the principles of moving from your centre apply in this respect. And that is all part of correct physiology. As I said, it won’t do it all by its self, but it as part of the whole - it is a contributing factor and it comes down good processes that you cross into your Kata and Kumite training. You mention “sitting” on your knees – well actually that’s part of the misunderstanding by many people. If, when in seiza, you “sit” back on your heels with a poor posture (ie not supporting yourself using your core muscles) your centre of mass is not only in the wrong place – your mindset is most likely in the wrong place also. Seiza is not sitting in this respect, because that implies “switched off”, that’s simply not the case. In Japanese ma the term “Kamae” is most commonly understood to mean “posture”. Most people see this as how you are standing / sitting in relation to a martial technique. It’s a stance if you will. In fact it’s a lot more – it’s a mental stance as well, it means you are “poised” both physically and mentally to do the job – I see seiza as being “poised” in this respect. So it is combative imo – just in a different way. Sojobo

Karate isn’t kickboxing, savat, JKD or BJJ etc., it is Karate. If you look at it as “function dictates form” - you carry a risk of missing the bigger picture imo. Just as practicing kata in isolation won’t have a direct consequence on my karate; as part of complete approach - things like sitting in seiza correctly all play a part of making it work. Sojobo

Do you think Karate would be better without it? If so, I'd like to understand your reasoning why. Sojobo

Sitting in seiza is something that isn’t taught very well in my experience. As westerners, we don’t tend to be naturals at it – whereas it is still commonly used in Japan. More often than not, it is to do with posture whilst sitting in seiza that is the problem. We are used to sitting back in a chair, so when in seiza, we tend to sit on our backsides. All the weight is then on our heels and our spine curves backward. Not only is this bad for your back, it hurts the tops of your feet and causes the knee joints to blow open. Correct way to sit in seiza is to not let your bottom quite touch your heels, with your spine straight. It’s hard at first, but after a while it pays off, as you have a far better weight distribution and your knees and feet stop hurting. It is also more combatively correct; as it allows you to move more rapidly out of seiza into action, because your centre of mass is more correctly balanced. This was vital in olden days, and could mean the difference between life and death. In today’s day it is still important imo, as it is part of the larger picture of correct posture, centre of balance and movement, which is vital to making your karate work. That’s why perhaps (as sensei 8 alludes to); experienced eyes can often spot whether a student has the potential to be any good - just by observing how they sit in seiza. And then once you have mastered that, you can move on to Shikko or “knee walking” ! Does wonders for your Junzuki! Sojobo

Personally, I'd rather be a good 4th dan in one style, rather that a 1st dan in 4 different styles. But to each their own. Sojobo

Don't you just knee them in the face, or am I missing something? Not a bjj guy obviously. Sojobo

Or... Were you thinking more along the line of how to defend yourself against someone who attacks you with fresh fruit... type thing? Sojobo

Hi Cayuga Karate, Can we suggest a common Kata for example? Why don't we start with Naihanchi? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the origins of this kata along with the functionality of it. From a Wado perspective, I am very clear on why we train it, as it underpins most of our karate and helps us understand where Otsuka sensei came from - particularly when you study it in conjunction with our paired kata (Kihon Gumite etc). This, to me anyway, probably conflicts with the contemporary approach of most "modern" styles today. In essence we use it to train the body - rather than to extract or experiment with the martial / sd techniques that “could” be in it. That’s the job for the likes of Mr Abernethy's etc. How's that for starters? Sojobo

BTW, My Koryu instructor encourages us to research our martial art and others for that matter. So I think it certainly has its plus points. On the internet however it comes down to the old chestnut of how discerning someone can be, when they don't really know what they are looking at? Sojobo

IMO you can research martial arts on the internet, but you can't really learn it to any great degree. You need an instructor for that. Also; factor in the things that books and the internet can tell you about, but you can't "realise" without an opponent!! Things like adopting correct distance and timing, awareness and how to size up your attacker etc. You can read about these things on the web, but you can't experience them (and therefore truly learn from them) unless you train in a dojo, with opponents and under the watchful eye of a good instructor. Arguably you could use the web to study the “omote” (outline structure) of say a kata – It won’t do you any real harm - as long as you have an instructor to fill in the gaps - and they will be sizeable, however on the subject of Ukemi (breakfalling) – and learning that from the web – be careful!! Ukemi is your last resort – it’s your safety net, you need to make sure you can do it well, because doing it badly can end in broken bones. Thinking you can do it and actually doing it isn’t always the same thing. Sojobo