sojobo

You should definitley train with the Muso Shinden-ryu group - you are so nearly there!!! sojobo

Just had a thought. Here's you three Bujin Bugei Jutsu lads (MP, LP And TG) getting really stuck in to a discussion on Karate - in a forum called karateforums.com! Is there a Bujin Bugai Jutsu forum that I can get involved in to even the keel as it were? sojobo

Maybe one day I'll cross the pond again and we can all train together and compare notes. I am sure we are actually closer than we think. Sojobo

Do you two (MP and LP) train with tallgeese? sojobo

Just noticed your listed styles Masterpain. "A codified, yet free flowing and still evolving system of violence". Dang!! I should have trade marked that. sojobo

A good instructor will have you work on different scenarious with the paired kata. As well a oyo (application) there is henka waza or variation. For example - a move done whilst drawing the sword will also be practiced with a Kodachi (short sword) as well as open hand. The point is that the principles learnt within the kata are transferred to different mediums. sojobo

Ahh! - except Ohyo kumite is not Kata It is practiced as such in many Wado groups these days but unlike Kihon Gumite - it is not "set" so as such is not kata. ... but I get your point. Sojobo

Aikido has Kata - like "Koryu no Kata": Remember not all Kata are solo Kata Most traditional Japanese martial systems utilise the process of Kata. Even Judo has Kata: Infact kata in Japanese culture goes well beyond Martial Arts. And the point is to evolve out of them.... sojobo

Well, as I think I have said before, I tell people from the outset that what I teach (in my Wado dojo) is NOT self defense. I have removed all references to SD from our web page. It's still a Martial Art though... and a very very good one imo. sojobo

Ahh... What's in a name anyway? sojobo

With respect tallgeese, I think you are overlooking the point and perhaps arguing yourself into a corner for the sake of it. To karate, in the formative years, kata was very important - not always seen through the lens of a professional soldier, but as a civilian and in order to pass on skills from one generation to another. Karate didn't just arrive at an evolutionary point, only for everyone to declare "yep, that's Karate". Arguably Tode was the evolutionary step on the path to what was to become Karate. Perhaps what you are suggesting (with modern training methods) is the evolutionary step beyond? Therefore is it still Karate? sojobo

And to be clear, when I talk of the feudal Japan I mean mainland Japan (excluding Okinawa). Sojobo

I’ll be honest and admit that although I a member of a Koryu, I am not the best to comment on the martial history of feudal Japan. I am more of a doer really than a scholar, but I’ll give you my understanding of it. Martial arts in Japan today are generally divided into Koryu (lit. old school/flow/stream) and Gendai (modern) martial arts. Without getting too nerdy about it, Koryu are martial schools that were codified and registered prior to the Meiji restoration (c 1868). Descendant arts like Aikido, Judo, Kendo and Iaido etc. (codified after the Meiji restoration), are considered gendai arts. Kendo comes from kenjustu or to be more specific, an amalgam of the kenjutsu techniques found in various koryu like “Itto-ryu” and “Shinkage-ryu” Judo comes from the various jujutsu found within schools like Tenshin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu etc etc. You get the picture… Karate is also considered a gendai art, but here’s where it gets confusing, because Karate is not a descendant art of a Koryu (with the exception of Wado). Instead, Karate originated and developed in Okinawa – therefore there is no such thing as a Koryu Karate school or ancestral school of Okinawan martial art and here’s why: - Unlike Japan, Okinawa never had a standing army. There were no professional soldiers and therefore no military battles so to speak. They had no formal “Martial Schools” and no real solid records of existence or the techniques they practiced unlike most Koryu who kept quite accurate writings of their schools methods/techniques. Instead, Karate, To-te / To-de etc., developed very much as a “civilian” self protection system with very few records or text kept – and maybe this is where Kata comes in. In truth, little is documented about its development from the early parts of the first millennium through to the middle ages. It was influenced by Chinese and Korean martial arts no doubt, but it wasn’t until the Sutsuma Clan captured the islands did the whole “Samurai” thing come into play. I’m sure that doesn’t answer your question tallgeese but hopefully helps you see the different between the two fighting systems? sojobo

Hi tallgeese, Sorry to be thick, but are you asking whether, what is practiced by Koryu, are closer to what was (or could be considered) Karate in it original guise? sojobo

Hi Tallgeese, I am at work a the moment so I will need to read the posts and answer later. Koryu however, tends to be a term reserved for ryu-ha that originated in mainland Japan and as a result, there is no such thing as a "Karate" Koryu. More later.... Sojobo

Tallgeese, Who are the kyoro guys? Thanks Sojobo

A gun is probably the safer option. Sojobo

Could it be that kata came about because so many trained by themselves, or perhaps with just one other, for so long? It is hard to fight by yourself, unless you have a friend named Tyler Durden... Anyways, nowadays, most of us aren't lonely people that work out alone, in the hopes that the one person will come along in life for us to pass on the valuable self-training tools we have to. I can see how the value of kata is greater when a bulk of training time is done alone. It keeps the techniques categoriezed and organized, and the helps with retaining the bunkai through some association. That's just a guess though. Not so much training in isolation, but perhaps the frequency of the training and the fact you had to build it around everyday life. A farmer doesn't have too much spare time on his hands, so has to fit his training in where he can. This is a different approach to the professional bushi of Japan, whose training was tailored to suit. Sojobo

Hi Tallgeese, Sorry, missed this post as I very rarely get out this way. Did you train with these guys yet. The Sosuishi-ryu syllabus has Iai / Batto jutsu in it, and it is great fun. What are you after in training it? Sojobo

What do you want it for? A wall hanger is different to an Iato. A Shinken is different again. Sojobo

Let's remember also, that what we refer to as Kihon is a relatively new invention. Originally, there was only Kata. One could also argue that Kihon is a form of Kata as it is set. My sensei always says that in Karate there is only Kata and Kumite. @brickshooter, I can totally understand why people are against Kata training and Tallgeese is right when he says that it probably isn't the most expeditious way to learn self defence or prepare for combat today (be that on the street or in a ring). But it is about the variety that you refer to and when practiced in concert with the other aspects of a good training regime, it has its qualities if we look at karate from an holistic perspective. Sojobo

and... perhaps, it's that civilian rather than battlefield martial approach that gave rise to Kata being such an imporatnt part of Karate?

It’s my understanding that Funakoshi was against introducing Jiyu Kumite into Karate training. It was most probably Otsuka sensei. There is also evidence to suggest that Kumite in some shape or form (tegumi for example) was widely practiced in Okinawa prior to the "codification" of what we now know as Karate. I also understand that in the most part, Karate (or its predecessor) was not generally practiced as a battlefield art - or for that reason. It was mainly as a method of self protection on a more day to day / civilian level. What you are describing is more akin to what sogo bujutsu ryu-ha of fuedal Japan taught. sojobo

Tallgeese, we are both singing from the same Hymn sheet. Sojobo

Wow, when I said it was there in the first place - I wasn't actually going to go as far back as the 6th Century. I think it would take a better man than me to pull apart something that has undergone over a 1000 years of development. Sojobo