Himokiri Karate

I disagree here. I don't think kata is a requirement or prerequisite for a Martial Art. There are many Eastern styles that do train kata, but I don't think the lack thereof means there is no Martial Art. I understand your point of view but I must point out that without Kata, which was and still is the delivery system for passing down the art, you would not have Karate. I understand that some arts are not passed down via Kata, Quan or even set routines. I guess my statement should have been there would be no Karate/Gung Fu without Kata/Quan. My point in fact is arts (lets take some modern day Karate styles) that do not teach Kata or only show their students Kata but do not explain what it is and how to extract the true intent of the art, but instead focus on Kihon (individual techniques such as blocks, strikes and kicks) and Kumite are not passing on the art but only a portion of it. Yes the argument can be made that one can learn the fundamentals through these practices but I argue that they are missing the true intent and the reason they are doing what they are doing. Kihon can only teach so much. Kumite without the foundation and understanding of the applications and how to utilize them will only teach so much. It is the Kata, and what they can and do teach us, that fills in the blanks and shows us what these other practices fall short of. I understand where you are coming from but you show me a Karateka that does not train in Kata and I'll show you a Karateka that fails to have a true understanding in the art. I'll go one step further and say I can show you a Karateka that is lacking in skills and knowledge of all of the applications and weapons available to him. Without Kata you can not IMHO truly have a firm grasp on the art. IMHO I will even go as far as to say without a true understanding of the Kata, one has no chance of mastering the art. This may not be popular with some modern day styles/schools but I have trained with some of these instructors and IMO they are lacking to say the least. Yes they can execute a perfect front snap kick or a back hand but are missing the glue that ties all of these techniques together and gives a broad understanding how to utilize them and when. Kata is like a book and Kihon are some of the individual sentences that make up the book. You have an understanding of what the sentence means but without reading the entire book they are pointless. Not to mention that you totally miss the other sentences such as the "hidden" techniques (Ti, Quan Fa, Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho) that are not readily apparent. Without knowing the order of the sentences the book makes no sense. Do you have an understanding of the individual sentences? Yes. Do you fully understand the art as a whole? No you do not. You are using the "no true Scotsman" informal fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Reality is, there is many ways to have that eureka/light bulb moment and kata is one of them but...its not the only way! With all due respect to your point of view I stand with my statement and believe it to be true. I am sure there are plenty of ways to have a eureka moment but I am talking about understanding the art that the founder created through his training and insights. I am not sure how a eureka moment makes sense in the context of my statement. Yes we as Karateka need to discover our own way but if you are not first shown the original intent you have no foundation to build from. Again I repeat my original statement, "if you do not understand Kata which is where the entire art is derived, you do not understand the art itself. 20 eureka moments do not add up to 1000's of proven applications. Again with all due respect I stand on my original statement based on my years of training in both traditional, Koryu and Modern day Karate styles. If you have a valid counter point that I have not experienced please share it as I do not claim to be an expert but merely passing on what my experiences have taught me. I may have misunderstood your point. Just to make sure we are on the same page, what your saying is, kata is about understanding the art as oppose to mastering? What I picked up from your post is that, to master a martial arts, you have to do Katas/forms? My belief is that, mastery comes in two aspects: 1. Endless repetition of techniques/moves until it becomes automatic 2. Followed by having the proper conditioning to make the techniques more formidable. So a boxer, judoka or a karate guy learns their art but at the end of the day , they would pick few techniques and they would drill it until it becomes second nature. From reading Masahiko Kimura training regimen, I read that his go-to move in judo was the Osoto-gari which he would practice the movements on the trees using a rope. Or my boxing coach would throw jabs religiously all day long as a separate practice to his boxing training. I will be honest with you, maybe my past is clouding my judgement but when I was a kid, I trained Shotokan and I remember on Friday nights, there was a very verbally abusive teacher that LOVED katas. I was not good at them and kept saying in front of the class "Are you stupid? "or he would ask if I was a slow person ( this site is very sensitive to language so I toned it down the "slow person", he used a different word which starts with R...) Anyway, he was the only teacher that had us do Katas for most of the class and he was a big proponent of it, he was also a very unimpressive karate over all,even though he was suppose to be some kata champion. What I mean by unimpressive is, he lacked composure in sparring/kumite, lacked power, unimpressive flexibility and coordination and etc.... My disagreement is that Kata is the only or best way of understanding the art. Boxers shadow box, some judokas only do drills and randori and they develop mastery and same with various grapplers who are mostly about drills and sparring. One thing to mention, most Okinawan karatekas train in Hojo Undo and from what I have been told, they believe that Hojo Undo is the soul of Karate and every karateka should train in it.

I disagree here. I don't think kata is a requirement or prerequisite for a Martial Art. There are many Eastern styles that do train kata, but I don't think the lack thereof means there is no Martial Art. I understand your point of view but I must point out that without Kata, which was and still is the delivery system for passing down the art, you would not have Karate. I understand that some arts are not passed down via Kata, Quan or even set routines. I guess my statement should have been there would be no Karate/Gung Fu without Kata/Quan. My point in fact is arts (lets take some modern day Karate styles) that do not teach Kata or only show their students Kata but do not explain what it is and how to extract the true intent of the art, but instead focus on Kihon (individual techniques such as blocks, strikes and kicks) and Kumite are not passing on the art but only a portion of it. Yes the argument can be made that one can learn the fundamentals through these practices but I argue that they are missing the true intent and the reason they are doing what they are doing. Kihon can only teach so much. Kumite without the foundation and understanding of the applications and how to utilize them will only teach so much. It is the Kata, and what they can and do teach us, that fills in the blanks and shows us what these other practices fall short of. I understand where you are coming from but you show me a Karateka that does not train in Kata and I'll show you a Karateka that fails to have a true understanding in the art. I'll go one step further and say I can show you a Karateka that is lacking in skills and knowledge of all of the applications and weapons available to him. Without Kata you can not IMHO truly have a firm grasp on the art. IMHO I will even go as far as to say without a true understanding of the Kata, one has no chance of mastering the art. This may not be popular with some modern day styles/schools but I have trained with some of these instructors and IMO they are lacking to say the least. Yes they can execute a perfect front snap kick or a back hand but are missing the glue that ties all of these techniques together and gives a broad understanding how to utilize them and when. Kata is like a book and Kihon are some of the individual sentences that make up the book. You have an understanding of what the sentence means but without reading the entire book they are pointless. Not to mention that you totally miss the other sentences such as the "hidden" techniques (Ti, Quan Fa, Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho) that are not readily apparent. Without knowing the order of the sentences the book makes no sense. Do you have an understanding of the individual sentences? Yes. Do you fully understand the art as a whole? No you do not. You are using the "no true Scotsman" informal fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Reality is, there is many ways to have that eureka/light bulb moment and kata is one of them but...its not the only way!

Why do you feel like you are not worthy? Is it lack of technique or a physical prowess? Neither!! It's a personal feeling, brought on through personal as well as professional loss!! I cant say I know what you mean, but from reading your posts, you seem like a pragmatic person that takes a logical approach towards things. Anyway, the reason I brought up technique and physical prowess was because, in some martial arts gyms/dojo/organizations, you have to prove yourself to the headmaster or the headmaster may just teach advance classes. To the bold type above... Currently, I'm the "headmaster"; I'm the Kaicho of the SKKA. Now I am even more confused as to why you feel like you are not worthy but I wont press the matter. That being said, I discovered an obscure kung fu master who played in 90s martial arts action movie. His name is Chin Kar-lok and in a movie called the scorpion king (1992) he showed AMAZING kung fu movement that left me speechless. I tried to find information but his peak was from the early to mid 90s and not too much information, though I did find an interview about his training which he was an all around kung fu guy, though he favored the southern style. I would post a link but I remember few rules in regards to posting videos which I have to check again when I have time. To the bold type above... Our Soke passed away in 2008 of natural causes. Our Dai-Soke passed away in 2010 from two separate strokes. Our Kancho and the 5 members of our Board of Regents passed away in 2016 from a head-on crash/accident. These personal as well as professional losses have taken it's toll on me across the board. In that, I don't expect many to understand as to why I feel unworthy, and what I do feel is the furthest thing from self-pity, but it's more of a huge void embraces me daily. Sorry to hear that, I assume you were close/reliant on the lost members. Hopefully you can recover and although I have no idea the structure of your style/dojo, hopefully there are some young talent that can help you fill the void.

Why do you feel like you are not worthy? Is it lack of technique or a physical prowess? Neither!! It's a personal feeling, brought on through personal as well as professional loss!! I cant say I know what you mean, but from reading your posts, you seem like a pragmatic person that takes a logical approach towards things. Anyway, the reason I brought up technique and physical prowess was because, in some martial arts gyms/dojo/organizations, you have to prove yourself to the headmaster or the headmaster may just teach advance classes. To the bold type above... Currently, I'm the "headmaster"; I'm the Kaicho of the SKKA. Now I am even more confused as to why you feel like you are not worthy but I wont press the matter. That being said, I discovered an obscure kung fu master who played in 90s martial arts action movie. His name is Chin Kar-lok and in a movie called the scorpion king (1992) he showed AMAZING kung fu movement that left me speechless. I tried to find information but his peak was from the early to mid 90s and not too much information, though I did find an interview about his training which he was an all around kung fu guy, though he favored the southern style. I would post a link but I remember few rules in regards to posting videos which I have to check again when I have time.

Why do you feel like you are not worthy? Is it lack of technique or a physical prowess? Neither!! It's a personal feeling, brought on through personal as well as professional loss!! I cant say I know what you mean, but from reading your posts, you seem like a pragmatic person that takes a logical approach towards things. Anyway, the reason I brought up technique and physical prowess was because, in some martial arts gyms/dojo/organizations, you have to prove yourself to the headmaster or the headmaster may just teach advance classes.

Why do you feel like you are not worthy? Is it lack of technique or a physical prowess? Regarding my list: Kimura Masahiko: From what I understand, he was the type who would practice solo using a rope on a tree to stimulate a throw. Almost all people say that judo must be done with a partner and there is a significant truth. But then Kimura did solo training with judo by practicing its mechanics and making the movements a reflex. Jet Li: Although he is a martial arts actor, he has exceptional movement and flexibility. As a student of boxing, I love his footwork in fist of legends when he was imitating a boxer. He may not have been a real fighter but he for sure has some amazing exercises and training concepts worth learning.

I may have gotten this wrong. It seems the general consent in this forum is that, Ancient Martial Arts was brutal in nature which is true. I guess afterwards martial arts became toned down for safety reasons and that's why Kata and forms exists. That being said, in combat sports, the trend is to not spar as hard and as often as they did 10 years ago and now the focus is more on movement and physical/technical training. I guess in a way, the combat sports is following the same example is ancient martial arts. (start off aggressive and tone it down for safety) That's what I feel like I am seeing.

I have noticed that combat sports seems to be evolving from hard training/sparring to a more systematic approach that takes safety in to consideration. Example 1: Boxer/kickboxers/MMA fighters are now sparring less and are more focused on safer approach to sparring. Old school karatekas figured it out and they focus on lighter sparring or hard to the body only. Example 2: Less strength training and more focused on movement. Most fighters are doing more shadow boxing or doing drills. In old school martial arts like Shaolin Kung Fu or Kalaripayatu they mimic animal movements for sake of plasticity and so the body doesn't become bound to limited movement which would be a persons particular style. If you look at combat sports, it seems like the modern training is similar to Ancient Martial Arts. Shaolin students, wake up and do a cardio workout by running stairs. They also move around in animal postures as well as train with stones and odd objects. In Karate its called Hojo Undo. Am I looking at this correctly?

I have never heard of Tegumi! See this is what I am talking about. It seems like there are many different sub-styles within a style. I was referring to the fact that, there maybe a Karate style that uses tons of judo techniques.

Anything and everything can be ridiculed at some time or another. If any style is consistently effective, then, imho, the name of what it's called is meaningless, and akin to not being able to see the forest because of the trees, or vice versa. Real life history? You're speaking towards lineage. Himokiri's history has been established from its very first day, somehow and someway. Anything with a path has a beginning, and continues forward until it no longer does for one reason or another. Hence, real life history exists!! Things are ridiculed for many reasons: Science, jealousy, misunderstandings, just don't like it, and so on and so forth; the list can be quite long, and quite daunting and unforgiving. If what the style offers helps a student of the MA, imho, who cares what it's name is, or where its name originated. If Shindokan, the style of MA that I've been associated with for over 50 years, had a interesting history and/or name, yet it being effective, I could care less what the name is or it's history or what others thought. IS IT EFFECTIVE?!?! If not, little matters after that, imho. If so, little matters after that, as well. Right on! I was checking out some exotic real life martial arts and quite frankly. There are some martial arts in the real world that are a million times more far fetched than what Himokiri Karate represents. The one that takes the cake is (or was) yellow bamboo. It was based on no touch energy attacks. They had tons of practioners at some point and all failed against jujitsu fighters around 10 years ago. Afterwards it faded away... This goes back to your effectiveness. If the art had a principle based on sound logic or even if the energy attack worked then this art may have survived then we would all practice it and karateforum would be named yellowbambooforum instead. Now that I think about it, a person coming up with a martial arts style has to be very careful and capable as well. What I mean is, if tomorrow I decided to promote Himokiri Karate then I have to make sure I have the skills to pull it off otherwise I will end up looking like a crackpot.

In most cases I would agree with your statements however there are Karate (Family) styles in Okinawa that are not shared with the public. Remember that all of the styles we know today were not readily available outside of Okinawa until the 50 and 60's and there are styles that were not taught to outsiders until the last 20-30 years. I would agree that most "styles" are well known today or at least someone has made mention of them either in books, magazines or on the net, but that does not mean that every family style is readily available to the public or even known. I remember the first time I had ever heard the name Pangai-noon when I was a kid. I thought that I knew every style of Karate ever invented and low and behold here was a very old style I had never heard of before. It is possible that there are yet still arts that are not shared with the public due to the transmission only to family or are small enough or not as popular that it doesn't get much attention. Do I think there is such a thing as a style of Karate based on a cartoon? No. Conditioning of the fingers and toes are as old as Karate is and targeting vital points is even older. They definitely have not cornered the market on originality. Most call this Kyusho. Its funny you mentioned pangai-noon, I just found out about it over a week ago. I was watching this old ripped uechi ryu karate master doing conditioning and it was mentioned that pangai-noon inspired uechi ryu karate. Speaking of families, I have heard that some family karates that are unknown may incorporate judo and so in a sense they maybe hybrid or they may specialize in developing specific technique and their entire curriculum maybe centered in students repeating that specific technique much like a boxer would his jab. This is seriously a solid post! The thing that's confusing is, the author of the show is a former amateur boxer and a kenpo practioner (not sure which style) he is also a historian of martial arts. What makes it confusing is, in his manga which is on-going, he pulls out obscure facts that oddly enough turn out to be true. Not just about martial arts but about either nutrition or powerlifting or something random like environment or psychology of politicians. That being said, in one of the arcs, I learned so much about so many real life kung fu styles that are not well known as well as exercises that are also real but can be found in older physical culture books like Charles atlas books or other old school physical culturist. Coupled with my buddies conversation about Himokiri Karate rekindled my curiosity for Himokiri Karate. Now I have a question for you and anyone else. If I for example, develop a super strong fingers/toes and live up to the principle of the Himokiri Karate and try to promote it. Would I be ridiculed for trying to promote a fictional karate style despite having great ability in its principle? Or does this style have to have a real life history to be accepted and not just some overzealous person trying to promote it. What I am getting at is, for a style to be accepted, does the stylist have to have an amazing technique/fighting skills in it or does the style have to have a respectable history and tradition for it to be acknowledged P.S: Here is a fun fact, within the fictional world of Baki, many minor characters complained that Shinogis Himokiri Karate was a gimmicky style.

In all fairness though, the karate style is not as far fetched despite being presented in a work of fiction. For example, I have read the 72 shaolin methods by Jin Jing Zhong and you can argue that Himokiri Karate takes some of the exercises that pertains to developing strong toes and fingers. This is not proof that Himokiri exists but I thought I should ask you guys if there are obscure styles of karate and if Himokiri karate happens to be one of them?

Ok I haven't posted in a long time and its funny because this topic is inspired by my username. For those curious, Himokiri Karate is a style of karate in anime Baki. Its based on having freakishly strong fingers/hands as well as toes. The principal is based on pin point strikes, the smaller the target/strike, the more damage you can do. Seems realistic enough. Anyway, I remembered a conversation I had with a friend of mine who is also fan of the show as well as Himokiri Karate and he says its real. I asked him if he can provide any proof and he said that there are tons of obscure Karate styles that never make it out of Japan or they may stay in the family/local community to avoid having it watered down. Is this really true? Are there Karat styles that are obscure that cant be found on the internet or in any martial arts magazine? Is Himokiri Karate real?

If he can pull it off a successful school more power to him. But seeing how you practice Shotokan karate. I am not sure if it is considered a smart move to open ANOTHER Shotokan school since its not a popular style to practice in modern times. Its just a weird thing to see a established school and 10 minutes away another new school of the same style.

Not to go into detail but when I was going through PTSD (nothing to crazy when I look back) I found myself not being too passionate about training and I was going through the motion. I was polite but very distracted and a compliment and criticism had neither a positive or a negative effect.

I have to check that one out since when you mentioned it, I thought about his movie "the meltdown" who also played another character that lost everything (his wife and child). The Meltdown was one of my favorite movies, I mean really, Jet Li seems like a such a cool guy in a sense that he is a rational and level headed guy and I have never heard any bad stories In regards to Van Dam, without getting off-topic I will say this, he did attain some levels of martial arts and although his character might be weak, he still does have some martial arts skills. For me, boxer Zab Judah went from hero to zero when I saw him assaulting people for no good reason. Even though I don't like the guy anymore, I still maintain that he has good boxing skills. Great martial artist with poor character are a big led down for us all!

I know that many people that studied or study martial arts have been inspired to do so because of fictional movies like old kungfu movies or any Bruce Lee or Van Dam films. But has there been a movie/show or a character that inspired you to learn a specific drill or technique? This question is somewhat near and dear to me and I will explain why... So I have been mostly a boxing practioner and I have always had fragile hands and would injure it a lot. I am also big anime fan as well and in an anime called "Baki The Grappler" there was a freaky character who practiced a wicked style of karate called: Himokiri Karate aka my username. His Karate demanded him to Obsessively develop strong forearms, wrist and fingers which allowed him to pierce any object and in his flashback, he was doing endless amount of finger, wrist and forearm training. This inspired me to look in to exercises to help with my hand conditioning and as a result. I have never really had any hand problems when it comes to boxing or Karate.

Well in all fairness, often times instructors do care for their student but they may not be well aware of the best methods to employ in order to ensure the safest and yet more efficient practice. Some instructors might think that a rough training method will "toughen up these lads" while not being aware of the trauma the muscle experience which in a long run may result in physical dysfunction like losing range of motion or various injuries that would slow down someone's athletic abilities. But back to judo, I suppose my one judo club experience has left me with an unhealthy amount of pessimism and conformation bias. However I will take your word for it because I have noticed in Kyokushin karate or different Japanese martial arts that, the teaching models are strongly structured and very organized.

I understand what your saying to an extent. For example, these are the safe value of the boxing and karate I have learned: Boxing: I learned from my first and third/current coach the emphasis on proper footwork as well as developing a stiff jab ! I know many boxing gyms that LOVE to just go in to the ring and just brawl like lots of animals. Sad to say, those guys usually fizzle out fast due to the wear and tear they receive from the style they chose to commit. But our current coach is like a martial artist. What I mean is, he won't allow any macho tough guy attitude infect his gym and if he sees you getting hit a lot, he will pull you out of the sparring and make you work on the basic or make you just do jab sparring. I am also doing Kyokushin karate and our sensei gets us to do lots of body conditioning and core strength training. He also has specific drills like one round goes to checking kicks or another round is all about blocking punches. I find that these type of methods help boxing/karate students to have longevity in their training but with judo. I have yet to find a judo class that focuses on basics or the right structure that allows student to have an injured free training sessions.

Injury free seems like an oxymoron when ones speaking about the MA in general. But I sincerely believe that injuries are lessened under the watchful eye of a qualified instructor. Even with that, potential injuries while training in Judo can occur; hence, things happen, no matter how careful one is. Under the watchful eye of a qualified instructor bad habits are practically non-existent because students aren't allowed to develop those negative muscle memories to sink in and remain. Students are taught the technical side of Judo, and how to properly fall and absorb any throw and the like are part of the technical aspects, as well!! the thing I have noticed from boxing is that, every ma style is like a coin. What I mean is, when I started boxing, I was at a gym that would spar 100 percent and they specialized in in-fighting as well as brawling. This was the gym that many people had injured ribs or crooked noses. Later on, I switched trainers and I started training with the boxing master and former world champion Tony Pep and his approach to boxing was very structured. Instead of 100 percent sparring, we would do jab sparring and we would focus on throwing jabs as well as defending jabs using various defensive methods like, head movement, shoulder rolls or using the gloves. Under Mr. Peps guidance, our boxing skills improved a great deal and we suffered from almost no injuries while all his fighters had a solid wins on their record. Sorry for the rant, basically what I was getting at is, it seems like every martial arts style has a safe and a dangerous way to learn and I was curious to know if judo also has that safe option or the nature of judo which is using gravity as a weapon may perhaps be too much...

I know its called the gentle way but it seems like Judo is by far the toughest and roughest martial arts to learn. I am curious to know how do you guys train in judo while staying injured free and do you notice any bad habits from others that result in avoidable injuries? I ask because I love judo but I hate how sore and injured I get and of all the martial arts I have practiced, judo feels like the longest to take to recover!

Hey guys! So I made a thread few weeks ago about trying Kyokushin Karate and I am loving the training, the people of Kyokushin. So now I am trying to up my training and I have heard about Hojo Undo long time ago and I have seen them in action. What I am wondering is...How many dojos and different karate styles practice Hojo Undo excercises? Is Hojo Undo he brain child of Gojiryu Karate? Do you guys do ALL Hojo Undo excercise or some?

Do you find the rules prohibiting hand techniques above the shoulders to be limiting? I haven't done any open sparring yet (too new) and holding back from throwing punches to the face will be a challenge, even if the punches I was used to throwing were non-contact. I did in the beginning but I came up with the idea that Im going to put my awareness on accuracy when I am throwing a punch. For example I will decide were exactly in the body I want to hit, this way I will forget about head hunting since I am making an effort to hit specific targets in the body. My biggest challenge is footwork, in boxing you can move around and pivot to the lead side. In Kyokushin if you pivot to your lead side, your lead leg is gonna be exposed for a low kick which if it lands may sweep you or do great damage if the practioner is a great low kicker with an awesome timing.

UPDATE: So I have done few classes since I made this thread and have sparred kyokushin style which confirms what I was thinking all along, which is that kyokushin is a great style for developing a solid infighting game and being able to take and give body punches as far as boxing goes. Its so amazing how transferable Kyokushin is to boxing and that you get benefits that are unique since most boxers don't train like Kyokushin guys.

I am so angry at myself for not trying Kyokushin Karate years ago! I had the BEST time of my life and let me tell you how much Kyokushin is gonna mean to me in future... So basicly, I have been boxing for many years on and off, although I never fought, I have gotten pretty technical under the tutleage of Tony Pep (former world champ) I still felt like there are so many things that my body can learn to perform. After all my goal in life is mastery of my body through martial arts. Which comes the Kyokushin, basicly we started the class with warm up, followed by stretching an various bodyweight excercises that you don't see in boxing due to the fact that the culture of boxing differs in training protocal. Afterwards we drilled kicks,punches and then the class sparred and I watched the spar. Now after the class ended, I realized that all the stretching and kicking excercise has really loosened my hips up and the crazy bodyconditioning really made me become more aware that as boxing practioners, we don't do nearly enough of conditioning to toughen our bodies up. Inconclusion, this was a pleasant cultural comparsing, there are lots of things I can learn from kyokushin that will indirectly improve my boxing and possibily vice versa and the ppl were very nice, although so are the ppl at the current boxing gym I train at as well.