elbows_and_knees

No variation. He is speaking on how they train at his gym. My post was about rules in the ring, not at my gym. In your gym, yes that may be true. In the ring, No. you can kick without them. It will all come in due time. Keep training.

The thing about that article is that it is speculative. I've been hearing for years that WC was tied to muay thai, but if can't be verifiably proven - too much of thai history has been lost. One theory is that it is an offshoot of a burmese art called bando. Another theory is this one. Yet another theory is that it descended from southern chinese arts, not specifically WC.

I completely agree - that's why you train in the gym. You hone your technique there. Just as you would hone your flight by cliff jumping over water. You train in the gym every day so that you can be prepared for the real thing.

sounds like you know what to expect - intense training. As for the padding, it's worn for various reasons. We wear gloves and wraps to help ensure that the hands don't break. You are correct that knees are bare, but elbows are padded (at least in the US) if elbows are thrown. If elbows are allowed, it is a muay thai match, If they are not, then it is a modified thai match. In a modified thai match, you cannot knee to the head. In a full thai match, you can. Who told you a roundhouse to the gut is not allowed? It is very much allowed. The reason for headgear is obvious. the standpoint on shinguards is that they are optional. however, if one person chooses to wear them, then both must wear them.

A sport art is still a martial art. Can the Boxer KO you with his punches? Can the thai boxer KO you with his elbows_and_knees? Can the bjj guy snap your limb in half? Can the Judoka Throw you on your head? If so, then what we are doing is every bit as martial as what you are doing. Why wouldn't it be? Now, in terms of point fighting you see associated with traditional styles, I would say that it is still martial art, albeit very watered down. Even the XMA guys learn the traditional kata, AFAIK, but they compete with their flashy stuff. Then step it up a notch - jump into a cage. Most of your techniques will be allowed in an mma match... having the 'vital areas' covered is not what would make them less effective. It is their training. If you are training for a point competition, you will fight like you trained for a point competition.

maximal weight, very few - like 2-5 - reps, few sets.

Nope, they don't have to be done at the same time. Also, many people have the misconception that MA classes will suffice as a cardio workout. While there is some cardio benefit, most MA classes will either not work you intensively enough to keep you in a cardio zone consistently, or will be anaerobic type workouts. Cardio workouts should be between 65% and 85% of your Maximum Heart Rate (Take 220 - age for your theoretical max), and sustained for 20 minutes or more, 3 times per week. MA classes may get you in that range, but not sustain for a long enough time. Also realize that your body will take fat off in the reverse order it puts it on. So, if you put on fat around your middle first, it will be the last to come off. Most males that you can see their six pack have body fat percentages between 7-15% or so, females 12-20%. Aodhan Bingo.

As stated, forms will not help your strength training. They will, however, build muscular endurance, which is different.

there is a good reason for that - it's all the same. The major issue is that traditional styles go into (possibly?) too much theory about the principles behind movements. sport styles do not, however, they use them. A judoka has no clue what peng energy is. your average xingyi stylist can tell you all about it. BUT, when you watch the judoka do certain throws, like tai otoshi, what do you see? peng. A BJJ guy has no clue what listening energy is, but he uses it all the time. Borrowing energy is used in thai boxing. It's there, but is not defined as it is in other styles. chinese fighting follows ti, da, shuai and na. - punch, kick, lock and throw. Goju does the same thing, so does thai boxing. dunno if I agree with that one. Most chinese style were DESIGNED to take a long time to learn. An exception is shuai chiao. Even in the old days where styles only had one or two forms, the process of learning was slow. This is where the sportive styles excel. They are designed to turn out an effective fighter relatively quickly. I disagree with this also. This was true in the old days, but is not now. In order for this to be true, MA would have mandatory firearms training, formations training, explosives training, surveilence, etc. The battlefield of today is nothing at all like it was back then.

I've been training muay thai for years - I know it's lethal at close range, that's not in question. However, that is NOT why it was created.Your statement was incorrect. They actually stripped a lot of the "more lethal" and less useful techniques out of muay thai, similar to what kano did to judo. As for the other comment, here's the problem with what you are saying. karate has been called karate ever since the name changed from 'te'. consequently, any style created afterward is naturally called karate. Those oler muay styles were NOT called muay thai. muay thai had not been created yet, see? You technically can't say that karate is the same as 'te' - it is a descendent of te. muay thai is a descendent of muay chaiya, muay lon lon, etc. there was no muay thai back then.

I train with an ex SEAL, several cops, an ATF agent and several ex-military... I fail to see what the point is there. I'm not military, but both my parents were and I'm a bouncer by night, so I fight several times per week. Is the fact that he is military supposed to reinforce your technique's effectiveness? At any rate, the percentage of failure depends largely on WHO your opponent is. In the ring, it's definitely not the best thing, until the guy is worn down, or unless you have perfect timing. On the street, it can go either way, as the guy usually isn't trained. In the case of military personnel, they (similar to sport fighters) are training to fight other trained people. Considering that fact, no, high kick are not advisable for them. As for the comment about jumping off a cliff, yess, I would. That is the only way you will learn to be able to do it every time, right? You set up the environment to be realistic, but minimize the possibility of getting injured. For example, jump off of a cliff that is over deep water. People PAY MONEY to jump off of cliffs all the time, even though they know they can't fly, it's a rush. That said, you approach fighting the same way. If there is a technique that you can't do, how do you learn it? you have to repeatedly train it... you have to jump off of that cliff.

exactly.

I used a head kick in my last ring fight. In ufc (53, I think?) Loiseau won his fight with a spinning back kick. He followed it with a flying knee. Like I said, There's a time and place for everything. What about when mark coleman got kicked in the face as he was doubling over and got a tooth knocked out? He was about waist height when he was kicked, if I remember right.

True, all ma are built on principles and theories, but not everyone training in a given ma has TRIED these theories. In which case, it's still very theoretical, as they have yet to apply it. I encounter this all the time. When I was training CMA, I was showing some grappling techniques to a guy who was planning on entering a grappling tournament. One of the senior students came up to us and said "yeah, but in real life, you just hit him in the throat or kick him in the nads", but when we sparred and I invited him to even touch my throat - he couldn't. I know it CAN be done, but HE couldn't do it. This is what I mean by theory vs. application. In thai boxing, judo, etc. we get a lot of application time in the form of rolling and sparring. I really didn't get much of this in CMA. I know there are schools that do, but this was merely my experience. I ran into another guy who said "boxers have no skill, they just stand there and slug eachother". That alone spoke for itself. I don't disagree with that. However, those reactions are just as viable on the street. crosses, hooks, elbows_and_knees, etc. they are all capable of dropping someone. Not only that, but with the lack of war, these techniques and methods were no longer needed and were thus dropped. Look at the end of the samurai in japan when they entered peacetime. The problem with that easier path is that is can depreciate your skills.

actually, the thai military style is called lerd rit. The striking in it will be like that of muay thai - heck it's just another thai style. Muay thai was NOT intended to kill at close range. Muay thai wasn't even created until the 1920's. Look up the history of arts like muay chaiya and krabbi krabong. Then you will see what you are talking about, not muay thai. EDIT: Look at the links you posted - ancientmuaythai.com is talking about the origins of muay thai - the previous muay. Those styles are not muay thai, but are styles that led up to the creation of muay thai... This is from that site: "Although the government of the time prohibited this style of fighting (with wrapped hands) people still continued to practice the arts and fight underground. Eventually, by introducing rules, and providing fighters with better protection, competition became safer, and the sport of Muay Thai was born. Here we provide a list of the most popular styles of "Muay Kaat Chueak". This section will attempt to explain the defining characteristics of each style along with additional background information. " According to this, muay thai is the muay created in the 1920's... I agree with this. Not really. It depends on where you are. In the street, yeah, I can agree with that. In the ring, it will get you hurt. Like morgan freeman said in "million dollar baby" - 'show me a man that is all heart and no skill, and I'll show you a man who is just anxious to take a beating.'

ttt = to the top, as in bumping the thread back to the top of the list. I answered a question for project janus and I want to make sure he sees it.

exactly.

Actually, no they probably wouldn't. One of the things I mentioned - I stopped a paperboy from getting mugged - there was a cop across the street watching the whole thing. When it was done, I asked him if he saw everything, and he said yes. He said that as a cop, it wasn't his duty to help us - his job is to make sure everything AFTER the crime is handled properly. Reports are taken, arrests, if necessary, etc. he was not required to go prevent anything from happening.

The overhand is to slip through the guard, not break it. merely hitting his foreams is somewhat pointless in the grand scheme of things. When you are in the ring trying to KO a guy, hitting the forearm is a waste of time.

you can get them on ebay. There are two movies and the series has 76 episodes. The series really gets into the technicql side of things - training your legs for endurance, getting power into punches, cus d'mato and the peek a boo guard he taught tyson, haggler and his flicker jab... It's great.

it most likely wasn't mt point sparring. It was some other venue, and either kickboxing or thai boxing guys entered.

I COMPLETELY agree with that post. I will address one point you made though - it's my group that will wai before and after each drill. that is not meant to be derived from thai culture. That is merely our way of instilling that common respect amongst eachother. You are acknowledging him for working with you. We have done this in EVERY style I've ever trained in.

No. What I'm saying is that it is irrelevant to "learning to fight". I can teach ANYONE how to fight within two years. They will not be the best in that short time, but they will be able to handle themselves in a confrontation. that doesn't take 20 years. Maintaining your skill level was beyond the scope of your statement, which was merely, learning to fight. And even then, if talking about street fighting, it's not a necessity. Some of the most vicious fighters I've known have been guys with no training at all... you are speaking on a local level. If I go to the thai boxing nationals this year, it will be in a different state than my own. how will I have seen my opponent? Also, what if it was his first fight? I still would not have been able to study him. As I said, that's not always an option. I've heard that several times, and each time, results proved the opposite. The big advantage grapplers have had is that you don't HAVE to try and wrestle them. it's really not that difficult to cover your face and shoot in for a takedown or clinch. Either way, you are now in his realm. Anyway, I won't speak further on this one, because "what if" scenarios drag on forever with no real meaning. It really doesn't matter how many subsets are grouped into the term "fighting". It's still usable in fighting and you can fight with it. as a bouncer, I am not allowed to strike on the job. What does that mean? I wrestle - defend, clinch, subdue. that is the same strategy that grapplers use in the ring as well. Whether or not it by itself is a complete system of fighting is irrelevant - it's still very effective. this, I agree with. Not outside of thailand. The reason it's precticed in such a way there is because they are predominantly buddhist - it's part of the culture, not necessarily a backbone of the art itself. I see what you are saying here, but that is not the case with thai boxing. It was created with the full intention of being a sport. It's not government deemed, like wushu.

Exactly. great post.

because YOU can't use it, maybe. I've seen TKD guys land a crescent kick with ease. I've landed them as well. There is a time and place for everything. our capoeira mestre was a bouncer in miami. He has pulled of similar things. Once again, just because you can't do it, that doesn't mean that nobody can. Now, in general, I agree with you. you have ideal techniques to use and others that are not as ideal. But that is personal preference. I have noy intended to offend you, and hope that you dont take offense this is just my opinion, and experience from 18 years of MA!