pers

Chris , the idea of one strike one kill does not mean you throw one punch and wait and see what happens ! The concept is one strike one kill in an ideal situation ,but you would carry on with continuous attack until you achieve that .

Is that even legal in regular shotokan competition? direct kicks to the knees? i've never seen any Shotokan competition where you can attack the legs. I'm not sure we're on the same page, when I say "full contact" shotokan, i'm not talking anything goes, or using techniques that would be too dangerous for the ring. i'm talking about the current rules in regards to targets/striking area, and what you can strike with, with allowing of intentional knockouts, and fought in a continuous or point style, depending on your flavor. I don't see how that would be any more dangerous than muay thai or an MMA fights i've seen. No I am not sure what you mean by FULL contact either ! Shotokan fight with bare hands , to hit someone with bare hands full contact could be quite dangerous and even lethal , as I said we do make contact but with control . As I said if you like to see what full contact Shotokan reverse punch can do then watch Lyoto Machida knock his opponent out with it in UFC. http://youtu.be/a49ReMH6zME

karate shoud teach you to fight at any distance , that is why we have stances like hangetsu dachi , all designed for close quarter combat , elbow strikes or short punches and knee strikes all work well in close distances . yes Shotokan can teach effective defence against weapons and multiple attackers , that is if you can find a competent instructor who can teach you all that . If you go to a Shotokan dojo that only teaches long distance combat where all you do is fight in long and deep front stance then look at other dojos until you can find a instructor who has more knowledge of Shotokan . I am afraid for every competent teacher who has the knowledge there are many that don't and are stuck at brown belt level in reality despite their high dan grades and flashy certificates

the blocks and various kumite drills are part of the progression of karate , an upper block like jodan age uke starts out as a block and we are taught as beginners how to block and incoming punch but it will change shape and one day it could serve you well when in a tight spot you managed to knock your opponent out with an age uke under his throat and save your life ! I think we should not generelise and use the same brush on all , I don't know what those so called 5th dans and 8th dans have been doing all their life , If I call myself a 15th dan would you believe me ?!! No disrespect but there are way too many people doing karate for status and ego satisfaction rather than training to improve . there are way too many who have trained for over 20 years repeating what they have learned in the first 5 years !! and I am being generous when I say 5 years ! but they are quick to go up in rank for the reasons that I mentioned . but 3rd or 4 th dans in our dojo would not look much different to two experienced street fighetrs facing off , by that I mean if they weren't wearing karate gis you could hardly tell they are karatekas !

If you like to see the Shotokan reverse punch in full contact watch Lyoto Machida knock his opponent out in UFC ! Shotokan caters for every age and ability group , not everyone can and want to train and follow what Machida is doing althought I respect him a lot and think he has done good publicity for Shotokan and demonstrate what pure Shotokan technique can do if you go full contact . So my answer to full contact Shotokan for average people like me would be NO .... they are too dangerous and can cause permanent injury to the face and body . Imagine hitting your oppoenet with the low side kick to the ankles or knees , they can cause permanent damage to the knee , so is it worth it ? definitely not if you are just an average guy taking up karate as a hobby and keep fit and self defence , after a while there be no one left to train with ! practice your timing and distance and strategy and test your bottle against opponents and do your best to perform good techniques but with control to avoid injury , practice the power and devastation and lethality of your technique on a bag or a dummy , give it your best shot and don't hold anything back ! hit it with all you got , if you can knock down a heavy dummy that swiwels on its base and knock it over then you got enough to knock almost anyone over ! by the way , when I say perform with control I don't mean to say you don't touch your opponent , I would still aim to hit the jaw with speed and power but I would hold back hitting my opponent deep enough to hurt him .

If you mean you are going to teach your own concept of the style trained in I would say go ahead ! Whatever you decide to teach you are going to teach the fundementals of karate first , then you can insert your preferan ces and your ideas on how to do combat into your tea ching .

LOL ! I just posted in the other thread and then saw this ! Kanku sho is my favourite these days but my favourites change every once in a while . Hangetsu is always up there , even if I don't do the whole kata I usualy the first 3 moves over and over before the start for warm up and breathing and kime , to me it is like going in slow motion how giving my mind time to evaluate the connections of muscles and limbs of my entire body , when I do the whole kata the second part of the kata when in fast mode like those three blocks and punches are the extention of those three slow moves in the beginning . So if I get the first 3 right usually the 3 fast ones would effective too . I love so many of them , unsu ,sochin ,empi , niju shiho ,hain godan and shadan . Best way to find out how competent and able a karateka is to see him do hian shodan ! Any one even a yellow belt can do hian shodan , but how you do it is what matters . it is a great kata for even a 4th dan to practice and tune up their techniques . Like our sensei used to say no matter what grade you are in karate you must always pay the karate tax in your training and karate tax is basics . but as you progress in grades you do less and less , up to black belt .if you start by 100 % tax when you are a white belt by the time you reach shodan it had dropped to maybe %50 and after second dan it maybe % 30 but perhaps it should never reach less %20 .

My favourite kata keeps changing every now and then ! currently I am in favour of kanku sho but before that my favourites were hangetsu , sochin ,kanku dai , empi , unsu , Nijo shiho , teki shodan , hian godan , hian shodan . Each one has a different feel and , for warm up I just go through bits and pieces that I like most from each kata , I usually start with a few repetitions of first 3 moves in hangetsu for its breathing and kime ,sometimes I do them when I get up in the morning , to me it is so invigorating . Hian shodan is a great work out for basic techniques and fundementals and it is always good to go to for conditioning and tuning up your techniques even for senior dan grades , you see a black belt do Hian shodan and you can guess what dan grade they could be ! at the moment I love kanku sho for its dynamic and multiple approach to self defence , I just love doing this kata at the moment .

If you want to put it like that it's fine by me , as long as it is a mean to an end and seves it's purpose . Karate has as many applications as you want it to be , it can be a great aid to any sport , it helped me tremendously in soccer , I played as goalkeeper since I was 8 years old ! until I started karate at around 25 and I stopped playing football and did karate for about 7-8 years before I went back to playing football again , I never thought I be as good as I was before but infact I think roughly speaking my game had improved by %50 . It was like I had the idea and experience of the game and now I had more control over my body to be where I needed to be and get there much faster than I ever could when I was much younger and playing league football ! there were few instances that I like to share with you and they bring back good memories ! I once almost scored a goal with a ushiro geri ! there was this low cross from a corner and I hit the ball cleanly and firmly with the sole of my boot ,the ball went towards the goal but a defender blocked it and in return and a team mate put the ball in the back of the net . Another time I scored a goal with a kukustu dachi ! what happened was I was in a good position inside the box with the goal to my left and shouting at a team mate to pass the ball to me , but he was in a shooting mood himself and he took a firm shot to score but the ball was off target and came towards me in speed , I just lined my right foot with the ball and went into a kukutsu dachi with my right foot directing the ball towards the goal , the ball hit my right foot which was my front foot and flew like a bullet by the side of the keeper and into the goal ! another great gift karate gave me in football was how good my left foot had become ! it was like I could always play with my left foot which in fact I couldn't before ! my control and precision to my own surprise had improved immensely. by the way in the park games I used to play one halftime in goal and the other half upfront as a striker , I never managed to score with a powerful mawashi geri hitting the ball into the goal but I came quite close a few times ,hitting the ball over the post or to the sides . I accidentally knocked out a player once when I turned behind to hit a ball at head hight with a mawashigeri , unfortunately he had already headed the ball and I got his head instead ! karate is very useful in military and it is vastly used around the world in the military and police forces . I always say this and can't say it enough , it is not the style but the ability of the instructor as a karateka and a teacher that counts not the style .

How is karate not a martial art ?

everything you say applies to all karate, not just Shotokan. Sosai Oyama was a big believer in ichi geki hissatsu, winning many of his challenge matches over the years with just one punch. You're focused too much on the competition side of an art, not the art as a whole. If that is your idea then why do you come up with the statement claiming kyukoshin is the strongest karate ? when you make such a big claim then people here from other styles would question it . and it seems you don't read my posts properly , I am focused on martial arts side of karate and not on competition side . competition is a small part of karate , that's why I brought the average joe into discussion so you know what I am trying to point out .

I can't seem to find any link for that. Everything I see is pretty much what I shared. He earned his shodan around the same time Oyama began training there, so I'm sure he did have some input into Oyama's training. There's a lot of accounts saying he later went to learn under Oyama too, so I'm sure there's some truth to both. http://www.dynamic-karate.com/karate-legends-taiji-kase.html We've had this conversation before. Personally when I watch Shotokan matches I feel they are far too linear and rigid compared to other systems which do engage in full contact fighting. As for the comments about the style, Kyokushin fighters each develop their own individual styles much like any other fighting art so there is no one style that fits all fighters. A fighter like Hajime Kazumi will use footwork and counterattacks, combining powerful punches with just low kicks and foot sweeps. You'll also have a fighter like Kenji Midori, who due to his smaller stature relies on his fast high roundhouse kicks and footwork to take out his opponents. You will have your power fighters who are ultra aggressive and relentless, like Makoto Nakamura or Hiroki Kurosawa for example. They are always moving forward and attacking, never giving any ground. You may also have a fighter like Norichika Tsukamoto, who fights primarily from the outside and hardly every punches yet has an impressive array of kicks he uses very effectively. Just like in boxing, there is no one style of fighting in Kyokushin. Heck, in a previous thread, you actually thought a Kyokushin fighter was Shotokan so you can't even tell the difference yourself between the two. As for the techniques - a lot of arts say that they are so powerful they will seriously hurt an opponent, yet reality is far different from fantasy. Oyama didn't believe that either, hence why he wanted to train full contact. Initially they allowed bare knuckle blows to the head, but for a number of reasons (specifically, illegal prizefighting laws forbidding bare knuckle fighting in Japan, as well as students having to go to work with busted mugs, black eyes, and missing teeth) Oyama decided to take away head punches to keep the fighting as karate. If he added gloves, Oyama thought, it would just become like kickboxing which he didn't want. Knockdown fighting is popular, so it still sticks around as a tournament format. Many Kyokushin organizations are moving back to the old ways though of utilizing head strikes (with light gloves) and have for over a decade now. Oyama actually wanted to change the rules to be a more realistic fight and had one of his students, Takashi Azuma, come up with a more realistic ruleset. Once Azuma presented it to Oyama, Oyama liked it but knockdown fighting had grown so popular he couldn't change it so with Oyama's permission Azuma went off on his own, forming Daido Juku Kudo. Knockdown fighting may not be as realistic as a real fight, but it's certainly more realistic than the sophisticated game of tag many karate styles play now. If you can lose a match for excessive contact, it's definitely not being realistic. Add in the stop and start every time a point is scored, and it's now a game, not fighting. It's going to develop bad habits that is going to carry over into your karate, and pulling your punches or kicks when fighting for your own survival doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I think this would apply to any karate style, not just Shotokan. Kyokushin is karate, and shares the same basic principles as any other karate style. If size was all that matters, then how did the renown Kyokushin fighter Kenji Midori, who weighed under 70kg, routinely drop fighters much heavier than him with his powerful strikes? I think his kicks are pretty darn quick in this video: You seem to have a bone to pick with Kyokushin for some reason, pers, even to the point of starting threads to degrade it. Insecurity maybe? Kuma , I have no problems with kyukoshin karate and respect all who train in them , I am only picking on what you came of with kyukoshin is the strongest karate , I am not saying kyokoshin is not good but I was expressing opinion and experience to say I think Shotokan is more effective and realistic , now why would that be a sign of insecurity ?! I have seen many strong fighters in kyokoshin karate , there amny in Shotokan and other styles too , for all of those guys faith might have sent them to a different school of karate and they would still be a champion , they carry that talent with them before they ever step in a dojo . we are talking about average joe who trains in karate , a martial art for self defence who may save you from trouble on day even if you 70 years old , then maybe speed in thinking and deciding the best action supercedes the speed of much younger and fitter opponent , economy of motion and speed in expansion and contraction and knowing where to be and when to be , not a fantacy dude but science of Shotokan karate . Ippon is the ultimate aim of Shotokan , be it with one technique or more until it is achieved .

Hats off to you sir ! oss ...

That's funny because I read in an interview that oyama trained under kase in those early years . that is what kase said himself ! I tend to believe him ... Funakoshi was an old man by then so maybe that was the reason for lack of kumite in his teaching but his son and other seniors who took over were not of the same thinking . Kase ,kanazawa ,shirae ,Enoeda were all formidable fighters and advocate that in their teaching . talking about realistic contact , kyukoshin fighting method is far from realistic contact , to me it looks like two powerful men standing face to face and exchanging blows without paying much attention to defence . Shotokan is about moving in and out of range , simply to hit and not to get hit . Shotokan techniques when mastered are devastatingly effective and could do serious damage so it needs to be a controlled contact specially to the head in competitions . shotokan techniques are about speed of execution with correct coordination of body parts involved in the delivery of technique ,that is the reason they spend a long time mastering techniques , how to move forward and back and side ways in a most efficient way . the faster the more powerful the technique delivered , rather than relying on muscle mass and heavy pounding which seems to be the kyukoshin concept. the difference is here in this Newton formula mass x velocity = power Shotokan works on more speed while kyokoshin works on mass to produce power . as a martial artist I prefare speed to mass , speed backed by correct technique has more chance of ippon than heavy mass and slower delivery . as a martial artist are of any built ,small and short or medium built or big and heavy built . an experienced lightweight with a small stature and maybe 60 year old in shotokan has a chance to beat a much younger and bigger opponent with speed and good technique , but in a kyokoshin way he would have had no chance in a similar situation !

Oyama himself was a student of Kase of Shotokan who later became chief instructor of JKA in France . Now depends who meet who , to blantly say kyukoshin is the strongest because oyama said so and no body could beat him out of those who challenged him is a bit far stretched . Need to think outside that bubble .

sorry but earned that term from who ? by all means call it the strongest karate if you like but there are many other stylist who don't agree with you . I say Shotokan is the strongest karate but I am sure you and other stylist like wado ryu or goju ryu or shorin ryu don't agree with me ...

I agree with your sentiment, and my Shihan has siad the same thing on several occasions to the effect that "I can teach you technique, but fitness and endurance must also be trained in yoru own time". There is only so much that can be achieved in 2-3 2hour lessons a week! This is why you will find that a lot of serious Kyokushin practitioners train hard 5-6 days a week in and out of the dojo. Its not just general fitness so-to-speak (though yes, pushups and sit ups are involved). I have been in numerous 2 hour Kyokushin classes where we will routinely drill over 1000 kicks. So much so to the point that the body wants to give up, but the mind must push on! This to me is Kyokushin, the Ultimate Truth, and it has helped me through every aspect of my life. It has taught me that the mind controls ones reality. I have trained several other styles including Judo, Arnis and Muay Thai, and while they are all great arts that I thoroughly enjoyed, none of them gave me what Kyokushin has given me. It is the same with the 20/40/50/100 man kumite. It does not matter how fit or strong someone is. There will come a point where the body wants to give up, and you must make the mind push on to gain accomplishment. This is an important lesson, and to me, represents enlightenment to a degree. We are not the body or even just the mind. We are the will that drives the mind and body. Don't get me wrong , I am not having a go at any style in particular but at those karate clubs in whatever style that put heavy emphasis on physical conditioning like doing 100s of push ups etc. To me that is the sign of limited knowledge of the instructors in karate that they try to compensate by running a club like a boot camp .

If by strongest karate you mean spending a lo.g time in a karate class to do pushand sit ups then why not go to a gym and get fit ?! as our sensei used to say to us " we are here to train karate and you taking the concepts and ideas and train in them , you do the physical conditionig in your own time ! " we did a good warm up first for like 10 minutes and then it was all karate and technical and tactical aspects of kihon, kata and kumite . so much emphasis in mastering how to move , when to move and mastering techniques , improving speed and efietioncy as we regard speed a.d effuciency as power and not how much you can lift or how many sit ups you can do .

Exactly right ! Karate is for everyone and age group ,anyone can learn and train in karate ,they just have to adopt it to their body type , even ones with disability can work around it . we had members that had disabilities or were much less gifted athletically but after a few years the improvement in them was incredible , guy who could not walk after a terrible accident and was wheelchair bound came training and within a few months he was back in his feet , I am not saying he was back on his feet and training like he never had a problem but his physical improvment was amazing ,he was back on his feet and trying to punch and kick and block and doing his best . Of course all this is possible only with a good instructor and will power on behalf of students . I have just started learning the guitar in my mid 50s ,something I wanted to do since childhood ! I find it hard ,my fingers don't like to obey me and go where I tell them but I am using what I have learned from karate in the last 29 years ,using the same method to teach them , same way I learned to kick and punch and block and move and perform variuos forms (kata) . Now I have to teach my fingers and co ordinate my hands to work in harmony and develpo calluseis on my finger tips < similar to the one I developed on my knuckes of my hands ! How long will it be before I can be a good decent guitar player ? I don't know and it doesn't matter to me much , I will just enjoy the journey ! You enjoy your karate journey ,even the hard training , it is not the end of ther world if you can't kick to the head , karate has lot more to offer than that ,once you get to build a strong fundemental in your karate you can adopt the best it has to offer for your body type and pyhsique . GREAT post. I played guitar for a very long time and am new to karate...I found the same to be true as did you. Learning is all the same. You do something slowly and purposefully until it is correct. You then speed it up as fast as you can do correctly. Muscle memory in your thighs...is just like muscle memory in your fingers. How interesting ! I wish we lived in the same town so we could meet ,you could have helped me with the guitar and I could have helped with karate ! In an ideal world I would have gladly exchanged half of my karate skill with half of your guitar skill !!

Great post !

I have the same belt since I graded shodan in 1992 ! I am actually quite proud of it , it has got old like me ,wrinkles everywhere and getting gray too , all natural . On one side it says Japan karate Association and on the other it proudly says Keinsuke Enoeda .

Exactly right ! Karate is for everyone and age group ,anyone can learn and train in karate ,they just have to adopt it to their body type , even ones with disability can work around it . we had members that had disabilities or were much less gifted athletically but after a few years the improvement in them was incredible , guy who could not walk after a terrible accident and was wheelchair bound came training and within a few months he was back in his feet , I am not saying he was back on his feet and training like he never had a problem but his physical improvment was amazing ,he was back on his feet and trying to punch and kick and block and doing his best . Of course all this is possible only with a good instructor and will power on behalf of students . I have just started learning the guitar in my mid 50s ,something I wanted to do since childhood ! I find it hard ,my fingers don't like to obey me and go where I tell them but I am using what I have learned from karate in the last 29 years ,using the same method to teach them , same way I learned to kick and punch and block and move and perform variuos forms (kata) . Now I have to teach my fingers and co ordinate my hands to work in harmony and develpo calluseis on my finger tips < similar to the one I developed on my knuckes of my hands ! How long will it be before I can be a good decent guitar player ? I don't know and it doesn't matter to me much , I will just enjoy the journey ! You enjoy your karate journey ,even the hard training , it is not the end of ther world if you can't kick to the head , karate has lot more to offer than that ,once you get to build a strong fundemental in your karate you can adopt the best it has to offer for your body type and pyhsique .

Is your knee injury due to your kicking ? if so it means you are not kicking correctly and being on the heavy side if you don't use your body correctly to kick the damage is worse as you put too much stress on your joints and kness . It is very difficult to learn to kick the correct way from advice in here , only way is to have a good instructer who can see you doing it and correct you as you go along . One tip though .... if it hurts don't do it ,you will lose more than you gain in a long run.

Karate without kata is not karate ...it is kick boxing or something on that line , nothing wrong with that at all ,it is just not karate .

These are very impressive numbers ...