pers

You want to know the diferrence between shotokan and kyukoshin then watch the famous fight between these two heavyweight champions . Sonny Liston was the undisputed boxing champ and Ali a young challenger ,Liston a fearsome and extremely powerful boxer who would just stand in the middle of the ring and pound his opponents with blows that not many could take and he used to knock his opponents out . But he had no answer for Ali's footwork as Ali refused to fight the Liston way and stand up face to face and exchange blows with him ,he would have had no chance fighting that way ,instead he used his great footwork to stay out of his range and his punishment ,go in and out using angles and his great distance and timing and eventualy knock Liston out . This is what shotokan is trying to teach ...avoid getting hit and use footwork and correct distancing and timing to hit the opponent at his most disadvantagous position , unlike Kyokoshin who fight in a Sonny Liston way . Hope this example make it clear for those who want to know the diferrence between the two styles .

I am talking about my experience in my shotokan dojo .. Just like in the airforce they use simulation or army sharp shooters don't actualy kill each other in training so does training partners in dojo ,they push each other to their limit and hit them to make the training worth while . Like our sensei says you better learn to block your partner becuase outside they are not going to be nice to you , so in the dojo is the cruel to be kind concept . I am actualy doing my partner a favour by trying to hit him in the face or body as fast as I can so he can learn to avoid it , if he can't then he still lives and may just have a bit of a bruised face and ego but he will actualy learn something from that and you never know he may actualy think twice before he gets into trouble outside !

Hi Dave , good to see you want to start karate again ,as you already have a shodan in shotokan I would suggest you practice katas a lot , you can always look them up on youtube for reference , if can't go to a good dojo then its great to be able to do it yourself and enjoy doing them . you have spent so much time in the past learning them so why not use them for your basic training ? I still enjoy doing Hian katas and I do them with intent , I do any kata like I am in a real conflict ,what is the point otherwise ? To me is like taking part in a movie and I am the John Wayne ! That is what kata is all about ,from hian shodan to unsu ,the reason you are doing them are the same , they teach us different skills at difereent levels but the end result is the same , it is mind and body conditioning .

Hello Dave , I enjoyed reading your post and your concept of martial arts . However there is a point I like to make about face punches , in our dojo head punches were allowed to make firm contact . The only controlled strikes were in pre set kumite like one attack kumite , in this the attacker in jodan zuki punches with speed and power to actualy hit the opponents face , if the defender is successful in blocking or avoiding the attack he then counters with a controlled but meaningful counter as it is considered a free shot and the person recieving it is not allowed to block. Shotokan is a martial art and caters for every age group and in any physical shape or size , so if you are very small in hight and size you don't have to stand up face to face and exchange blowes with a person who is 190 cm and 100 kg in weight and maybe 30 years younger than you if God forbid you find yourself in that situation for real ! If you can aquire the skills to avoid his attacks and have such timing and sense of distance to hit him at his most vunarable position and try and end the conflict with minimum amount of time that you can spare . One good example is the late sensei Kase 9th dan JKA ,you look at the man and believe me , you would say to yourself ,,I can take him out in two seconds ,until you see the man move with such grace and speed that would leave you in shock ! he was very short and did not look athletic at all ,but what he lacked in physical apearance he had it in his karate ability and skill ,he has many videos on youtube . I had this feeling towards him when he first came round to our group of green belts to teach us in the famous Crystal palace course but he amazed all of us . the greatest lesson I learned from him that day was that karate is for everyone ,even those with limited physical or less advantagous pyhsical body type.

My advice to you is stay where you are and concentrate on your shotokan training ,you still have a lot to learn as a 1st kyu . If you go to kyokoshin dojo you will only confuse yourself and hinder your progress ,the reason being that kyokoshin has a diferrent concept to shotokan . Like other member here put it very nicely if you choose to chase too many rabbits you will go hungry . I have trained in shotokan for about 27 years , I am at a stage that I can go and persue another style becuase I feel I have bulit a strong foundation that I can easliy cross train in another stlye and not embarrass myself ,but I still feel I have a lot more to learn in my own style to keep me going for the rest of my life.

Well done ! so are you a first kyu now ? if so then your next journey begins now to go for shodan ,for me it was a sweet but hard journey and a bit painful at times but it was worth all the effort .

This is the ultimate state of mind . One strike one kill is the concept and the mind set , to end the conflict as quickly as possible .

Excellent post , you said it very well . My advice would be to give each technique 100 percent as if your life depends on it ,have that frame of mind and try and act like an actor in a fight scene of a movie ,live the kata and do it as if it's for real ! It doesn't matter if it is Hian shodan or Unsu ,your attitude must remain the same , you do them all with the same frame of mind .

I think instructors have an obligation to train themselves daily and keep up , you don't give up training becuase you are 4th dan or 5th dan and still be an active teacher , now I fully understand those qualified teachers who experience health issues and that prevent or limit their training but they have wealth of experience and could teach all aspects of karate ,there are so much about strategy and tips about techniques kumite and kata that they can pass on ,those masters are gems .

If they only practice for tournaments I can understand your hesitation. Many knockdown dojo do train with gloves and allow head shots in dojo sparring nowadays. Yes, that's what i'm looking for, full contact sparring with sparring gloves and headgear. Even in the one step kumite drills we do at my kyu rank we don't wear any sparring gear. How will I ever commit to do a full contact attack to my sparring partner like this? This situation is killing kumite aliveness and is a waste of time instead of skill improvement. I find it very frustrating that only Kick Boxing, Muai Thai and ''MMA'' gyms practice full contact sparring with protective gear. Why? It's mid 2012 and sparring gear is available everywhere, why not use it to enhance your training? 'If your Dojo is teaching you to fight according to tourney rules ask them for your Happy Meal you've got a McDojo.' Johny , the best way to practice full contact is on a punch bag , in the dojo you learn how to strike on a partner wherter he is stationary or moving acoarding to the type of kumite you are doing , we always aim to hit but with control to the face ,for example when doing one step I always do my best to land a jodan zuki to my opponents jaw with speed and power but pulling back a couple of centimeters to avoid injury , and outside the class you find some time to practice those techniques full force with nothing to spare against a punch bag and thuse improve the effectiveness of our technique and see if it would work for real . so in my opinion in a karate class we learn how to do it ..distance ,timing and efficiency to deliver a good technique to the target and outside of class we can train and test the power of our technique against targets like a punch bag . There is no need to knock out your club mates to find out if your technique is good enough ! a punch bag can tell you that too . It's one thing having a strong punch or be naturally very flexiable and could do a nice jodan mawashi geri ...its another thing to actualy hit someone with it . How many people do you know that have a massive God given hand and could hit like a hammer but they lack the abilty to a deliver that and reach their target , I hope I am making sense ... You know that Oi Zuki in Hian shodan ? that technique goes a long way up to senior dan grades ...it just changes shape a bit over the years but all the pricipals stay the same ,still senior dan grades try to polish and improve it . Like a fighter plane that goes through upgrades so does the technique ,part of that is hitting the bag or makiwara regulary , either with a partner or on your own ,you will soon improve and know which strike was good or not ,the bag will tell you .

That really is the awesome thing about kata. I love how it adapts to needs and desires of the person practicing it. I completely agree with you. There really is no right or wrong way, yet you can learn so much about a person and the way they are feeling by watching their kata. When I shared a room with my brother back in highschool, he used to always say I was fighting off a bunch of invisible ninjas. The nice thing was, that I always won That's good to hear Sam ,kata is a great asset to have ,you can take it anywhere with you .

I dont think weight or being over weight has any thing to do with it, sensei Kaze is a good example of this , he was small in size but over weight and if you didn't know him you wouldn't think much of him as an athlete but he was absolutely awsome karateka and moved around and unbalance and strike people much bigger than him like a Leopard ! I was 6 or 7th kyu when I trained with him at a crystal palace and I was mesmerised by his ability like every one else in the group ! mostly becuase I couldn't believe a man of his stature could be able to move so swiftly and gracefully . being over wieght and being unfit is not the same ,some people have a great physique but not that skillful in karate and some poeple are not naturaly gifted pyhsically but they make up for it with skill and ability . you need to look beyond their apearance and watch their ability ,if he can't practice what he preach as an instuctor then look somewhere else.

the thing with kata is at different stages of your career it will have different feelings , our body type and our own preferances on our favourite katas and what they mean to us , over the years my favourites change slightly . sochin kept me going for a long time ,I liked it and felt good doing it ,then I started to pay more attention to Kanku sho , and then Hangetsu and then Nijushiho and Unsu plus I always like to do hian Shodan and godan . some times I like to do them slow to emphesise on correct technique and check out if I am doing it in the most efficient way . Normally 20 minutes before the class starts my warm up is doing kata in slow or meduim speed ,maybe a whole kata or bits and pieces from this and that , but in class it is like fight scene in my head fast and furious within the concept of the kata , in my mind is a fight and a self defence situation against multiple adversaries , I forget about looking pretty with my technique but how effective it could be , of course the more you have practiced the kata and familirise yourself with its application the better you can play the part , after all it is a training and in kata you are always the winner in the end against the imaginary opponents ! it is a mind and body game and how to get the two close to each other and even better how to make them into one .

tai sabaki is body evasion , what you are reffering to as interception is called go no sen if I remember correctly the term for it . sen no sen is when you wait to see the attack and you take action ,go no sen is a stage further ,to read the attacker's intention and as he begins the attack you counter him with you own attack . tai sabaki is to put your body in a favourable position or evading an attack by moving the body out of the attackers centre line thus gaining advantage to attack from the most vunerable position for the opponent .

Great advice , I was going to mention youtube ,all the katas are there by top people . Congradulations on your return after 22 years , I recently returned to training after a long lay off ,it seems the bug never leaves your body !

Excellent posts guys ,you said it best ...thank you .

I agree with you but could also use the opportunity to debate about our form of martial arts ,for our freind's sake who is a 6th kyu and is looking for answers we maybe able to share our own experience and help him make a better decision . That is all I was trying to do for our friend from Athens becuase I was in that situation myself and I felt the frustration myself . Of course without knowing anything about the club he is training we can't comment about the club ,but even if the problem was that it is not shotokan which is at fault . In my own case I had to make the switch from one dojo to another and join a different asociation at 3rd kyu level and it was like going from primary school straight to university and I am not exagerating ! Both clubs were shotokan but the difference was as I said like primary school to university. I had to relearn all the basic techniques and remove all the bad habits that I had learned for the past 3 years ,it was extremely hard and frustrating for me who was not a natural to karate , facing dan grades from 4th dan down to shodans who wanted to prove themselves as new dan grades and who better to take it on but the brown belts ! It took me 5 years from third kyu to shodan !! I did both the basic class and the brown black belt class during that time and they were excellent . There were only 2 or 3 people that did double class regulary and I was one of them , becuase my standard was very low and I had to work hard to improve it ,otherwise I would not be able to progress in brown black belt class . Interestingly even after I graded shodan I carried on with the basic class for another 4 years and enjoyed every one of them ,great work outs and I used to love the one step kumite , trying to land a jodan chudan punch or kicks , doing them served me well against all those dan grades who didn't do the basic class and I felt I over took them with speed and efficiency .

Interestingly nobody was singling out Shotokan nor attempting to make this a "style vs style" thread. All I did was correct a misconception and share a simple opinion with the disclaimer that it was my opinion. I have no problem with systems. It's faulty training methods I dislike. was it not you who called kyukoshin superior then ? sorry it must be my poor English !

LOL ! OK dude , so you were not impressed ....as you were then dude .

There is more to jissen kumite than what you are describing. As for differences the Kyokushin method in my opinion is superior for a number of reasons. It is continuous fighting not start and stop when a point is scored. There is no penalty for excessive contact as it is full contact. Strikes to the legs are allowed. The goal is to stop the opponent so they can no longer continue to fight thus a very different objective and the kind of mindset one should have in case they need to protect themselves out of the dojo. The point fighting method you are describing leaves a lot to be desired. Please enlighten us with what more there is into jissen kumite and the number of reasons that make it superior . If you just say becuase I tell you so then we leave the discussion but care to give your reasons without generilising and brushing off shotokan kumite is tap scoring ...I am sure there are many karate schools who do fight like that with a just a light touch and point scored but please don't paint all with the same brush . for example many years ago our sensei kicked out a purple belt who was an idiot and a bully and a year later he opened a club and start teaching shotokan as a second dan ! is that shotokan's fault or does it make shotokan a poor school of karate ? I did mention in my original post that all styles are equally good and have benefits of their own ,it is about a particular school and instructor and their qualities NOT the style they are teaching .....until you claimed about kyukoshin being superior and I had to call you out on that . The quality and effectiveness of shotokan technique and their fighting methods are well known and documented ...it is the result of lots of panistaking basics ,the reasons for controling the techniques are obvious in training ,if there is not control on how much contact you make then after a while there be no one left to train with . I would know if I am hit with a controlled but fast and furious technique that a couple of more inches it would have had a devastating effect on me . I am absolutely positive and sure that kyokoshin karate is a respectable school of karate and I have read many stories about its founder mas Oyama , I was just trying to point out the different aproach between the two school for a relatively new practitioner who is a 6th kyu in shotokan and is in the same frustrating stage of his training that I was once in ... it is the stage that you just want to learn to run before you have developed your muscles to walk properly and I was trying to point that out to him plus a brief description of different methods of the two school . Kyukoshin is more about strenght and developement of tough body to be able to take heavy punishment while shotokan emphasises on developing pure technique and analysing what happens during the execution of technique ,how to move from A to B effiecently . I would not call shotokan superior to any other school or kyukoshin but shotokan suits me and mybody and age these days , other people have other preferences . Is this what you call light touch or tap scoring ? if so the ones on the recieving end must be really good actors to mimick being knocked out by a devastating technique !

I would say either Bassai or Kanku Dai! They pretty much encompass Shotokan and are a showcase for the style. imo of course! OSU I agree with you but my mind also wonders towards Unsu ,and the two Gojushiho katas that also reflect what shotokan is about at a higher level.

absolutely ... once you get old and your body starts getting frail it is only the technique that can help you against younger and physically stronger opponent ...

Did you ever go to Crystal palace course ? I made few trips up there and trained with Enoeda sensei ,kaze ,Kawasoe . We were also privilaged to have sensei Enoeda teaching at our dojo two or three times as the only club outside of KUGB to have such an honour .

Though there are some fighters that prefer the toe to toe style the goal remains the same as Shotokan - end the fight as quickly as possible. In my opinion the Kyokushin method is superior though as you learn it's really not that easy to stop someone with one blow. Mas Oyama the founder trained in Shotokan but found the kumite unrealistic hence why he developed jissen kumite and Kyokushin. Superior in what way ? ..........so shotokan kumite is unrealistic but kyukoshin is realistic ? what is realistic about two fighters facing each other in a stationary stance and taking lumps out of each other with body blows with no punches allowed to the face ,do you fight like that in the street too ?! there are many examples of shotokan kumite from JKA available on youtube ,where its dynamism and fluidity with speed and power are displayed in its best ,very realistic in my opinion ...much more than lets stand and beat each other up in the body and see who can last longer standing up .

What a great story ! thanks for sharing it with us , very inspiring for young karatekas who read this ,its not just about doing a nice jodan mawashigeri it is also about the improving ones character and self esteem .