Sam

Cool just read all this (ignored to initially for some reason). New to conditioning my self - just got some sand in bucket at the moment; and a board with lots of sisal rope around it (dry coarse stuff) that i hit alot on the way to work.... working nicely!! Fingertip pushups seems to be the way to go as well for me (in my limited experience), helping massively with my striking into more dense object. Also conditioning on the knuckles - knuckle press ups on carpet / gravel twisting 90 degrees on the way up and down.... thats working as well.

Wow, that was a really good post Shorin Ryuu; I dont agree that thats necessarily true in all martial arts (about shodan meaning practically nothing) but you did use Okinawan styles of Karate as an example - so i guess you're not generalising. I do definitely agree that there is too much emphasis put on the physical endurance of the test rather than the skill or knowledge of the practitioner.

Yep, definitely seems you should get out there like tufrthanu said only reason he's still got karate is u... The transfer to kickboxing does seem a bit strange ....

As i will mention in other posts - proof by anaology is not really any proof when taken too far. Didnt mean to put words in your mouth Aodhan!

The analogy you draw again is slightly flawed in that gonig out on the road is more like gonig into a fight...... advance techniques are the same as basic just done in a differtn way; gonig out on a road is a different kettle of fish to just riding a bike... implying that training is completely differnt from actually going out and fighting.... different skill set : kicking a back, reading an enemy.... just dont like proof by analogy guess thats my problem!!!

A good reason for it other than respect, is it provides a universal language for TKD practictioners to train wherever.... in any dojang all over the world... I learn terminology rather than the language, but i would actually love to learn it; just a matter of finding the time, or a teacher.

I agree in a sense, but any skill goes out of practice, and the analogy that you propose (meguro) is not really valid - becuase by the same anology i could say...... when learning a foreign language until i am absolutely fluent (mastery) i will practice the basic grammatical rules; and also language is completely different from MA anyway. Riding a bicycle is nothing as complicated as a basic technique. Riding a bicycle is simply overcoming a fear and de balancing yourself, thats really all there is, whereas technique is not so innately learned. Although i agree to some extent the analogies are flawed. There are very few things that could be compared to the practice of MA; and IMHO i would always see it as appropriate to continue to pactice the basics. Incase this comes out as rude or a flame, i dont mean it to be, so ill apologise in advance if anyone takes it thisway, im in a bit of a rush

hehe, i get it "grappling" techniques.... okay so maybe im a little slow.

Its always really interesting in our organisation - we have national black belt training sessions every few months and get alot turning up (around 100) and just to see the variation in attitude is astounding - some are very humble or unassuming, whereas some are braggarts. Always funny to see the difference (esp. in TKD) in technique's they use when asked to demonstrate, but i can imagine some of the second bunch of people did little to help the impression the non-MA world has of BBs

Thanks Mikaveli, I agree about the Dan grade and degree but its really what you expect from a black belt that matters in teh time it takes. IF you expect them to have an understanding of what the moves do and how they work and be able to do them all to a high level then yes 2 or 3 years is reasonabe. However if you expecft a black belt / instructor to be in excellent physical condition and be conditioned as well, also highly adept in the moves themselves demonstrating the ability to do them all to an exceptional level then yes 5 years at 20hrs is adequate. I guess all our differences in opinions stem from what we see black belt as : (a) - a point where you pull of the moves adeptly. (b)- a point where you are in mastery of the moves. (a) would suggest blaCk belt is only the start of your journey in the art physically and spiritually. (b) would suggest that black belt suggests mastery of the physical side and furhter in crease in Dan grades represents a more spiritual understanding / growth associated with Martial Arts.... These two as we all know are very differing stand points in MA and neither is necessariliy better than teh other, so long as you know which one you are!

I always love it on forums when Korean history comes up. Its so absolutely convoluted now that no one really knows for definite what happens. People who were actually there say different things to each other; people like Choi change their story over the years (compare 1965 publishing of encyclopedia 1999 edition). All i would say is that coming from and ITF school i would agree Oh Do Kwan was definitely not one of the 1st 5; and the rest of what everyone is discussing will change depending on which art you study and under which GM if any at all.... one other thing, EternalRage that was a fantastic post, thank you, very rarely see someone cut through all the cr*p around korean history.....

I agree about that it not being the way of TKD recently - guess its the more sport orientated edge its taking. Im only 19 and have been training for 5 years, so cant really comment on how it used to be, but id definitely agree that general theory, not just korean terminology but other things to, is not concentrated on enough in alot of dojangs.... I really do believe this is an important part of learning TKD, as whats the point in learning something ifyou dont really know what it is, other than what it does (if that makes any sense?)

Yep we do both here, didnt really read all teh posts, but got the gist. We actually have 3 variations, sort of... (1)Turning Kick using ball of foot (2)Turning Kick using instep (3)45 kick using instep - like a turning kick but the hipsdont go over (used for sparring, goes up at 45 degrees hnce the name). Use (1) for line work and breaking and forms (2) + (3) for sparring (1) + (2) + (3) for padwor

4 days 2 hours on each

ouch

I like the college / uni analogy, all i would say is there is more than just a physicaly side to being a black belt, so there is necessary levelof maturity that goes with it... time wise - 3-5 years would be reasonable.

This is really weird, ive hardly ever had any problems with people when they find out i did martial arts, even people who i didnt get on with at college never said anything about it, and i practiced my forms a lot at school. We get the odd couple of idiots who run through our lessons (local sport centre) shouting stuff every couple of weeks, but nothing that bad....

I think we're getting a bit hung up on the difference in training. Like aodhan said it should be around full time (20+ hours) training for 5 years, which would be around 5200 hours. Now, what we have to consider (imho) when deciding if this is a reasonable amount of time (compared to modern 2 - 3 years at 6 hours a week). In the 20+hr, 5yr course you would not just learn the moves and become adept in them, you would spend a large proportion of that time doing physical training and conditioning on a level beyond what one would learn / endure in modern training at 6 hours a week. I believe this is the major difference, all well and good learning forms and moves and their applications, but also at 20hours a week you have time to greatly improve your physical ability with those moves. Any way thats just my two bits, personally it took me 3 and a Half years at around 10 hours training a week with home training thrown in at around another 5 hours (at least now it is, cant remember what i started at), this is not including any exercise i do other than conditioning.

Classes at my dojang vary between 10 and 25 in each lesson, and yes they are all open to all belts. Although within our organisation we have specific black belt training sessions, and pattern courses that occur every 2 or 3 months.

nope never heard of it.

Very difficult situation, i mean ideally youd just say that they dont have to be there if they dont want, its down to them, but i guess you dont want to turn students away from your school! Personally i would explain to the parent that the promotions are based on achieving a certain level of undertstanding, rather than directly related to the time attending lessons. And that some students go to more lessons and work at it at home. Still a very difficult situation to be in - just out of interest is this question hypothetical or has it recently happened?

TKD (WTF, ITF as well); Not enough self defense, ground work, etc. to beat: get in nice and close and push them over, lol. Again TKD doesnt teach anything assuming you're on the ground so once they're down thats it. Also too tempting to kick leaving off balance - so thats another let down.

I personally learn the Chang Hon forms in my Dojang, but have been around and learned the Tae Guek forms and have practiced a couple of the songahm forms as well. IMHO i would say that the Chang Hon form set are the best for teaching students techniques applicable to their time trained (bearing in mind the minimum time between the belts for us is 3 months, then 6 months after you hit blue belt). My only problem with the Songahm form set is that it starts off with a lot of moves that most white belts wont be able to get to grip with that well and that early on, unless of course the grading time on the first step off white belt were to be longer. It is always really interesting to go around different Dojangs and learn the different form sets, and i was wondering if anyone knows any sites with a collection of the different forms from each group as i was thinking of doing one myself.

19, and going on for 20 in october. Nice to see the massive range of ages on this forum!!!

19, and going on for 20 in october. Nice to see the massive range of ages on this forum!!!