judoguy

Let me ask you a question. Since you train in both judo and shuai chiao do you think that you could abandon your judo in favor of shuai chiao and combine it with your BJJ or is your judo training more intergal. This question is based on the premise that some people seem to think that judo is all about throwing and nothing else.

In the sense that judo is decended from jujitsu and jujitsu is decended from shuai chiao they are related. But you are right in that shuai chiao doesn't have EVERY greco takedown but it has most of them. how long have you studied Shuai chaio by the way?

If you really think about it most throws have to be done in a somewhat unorthodox method with the possible exception of seoi nage and tai otoshi. I'm talking about in live randori with someone who knows what they are doing of course. They certainly don't look as beautiful as they do when demonstrating on uke.

Oh and about Bjj egomaniacs. You must understand the difference between DO and Jutsu. Do is a way of life. A philosophical approach as well as a technical. The mentality is that if you focus soley on technique and winning then no matter how good you are, no matter how many fights you win, you are not complete. You can win fight after fight against people from any style to prove yours is the best, but your style will still be considered inferior because it's pursuit is vain and empty. On the other hand your fighting can be less effective then someone elses but if you have a philosophical and spiritual base to your art then your style would be considered superior. Jutsu on the other hand is about winning. It's about pure technique and what works to get the job done. It doesn't care about aesthetic appeal, it doesn't care about philosophy, it cares about results. So you have Judo and Jujutsu. The Bjj people have chosen to follow the path of jutsu. Thus you will get some of the excess of that approach such as egotism and bravado. The Gracies did this when they wanted to put BJJ on the map. They have since toned down the rethoric but it lives on in some of the practitioners of BJJ. I have met with Renzo gracie and With Royler, both of whom are great guys and two of my favorite fighters because they make NO excuses for losing and don't demand special rules for their matches regardless of who they are fighting. Rickson and Royce on the other hand...

Judo will help you with your clinch and it will prepare you for the ground. Judo groundwork works best when applied right off of a throw/takedown. There are various positions to learn once you are on the ground that from a Self defense stand point are more suited to streetfighting then bjj's. The moves are not as highly advanced as Bjj as far as positions and transitions but you will be no pushover on the ground either. Master the basic positions and submissions and you will be the match of just about anyone. Don't worry about super advanced guard positions and fancy submissions. I tell my students to master 3 chokes, 3 submissons, and 3 throws from any position. The rest of your time should be spent on counters and escapes. Judo is a very deep martial art and if you don't spend all of your time training for olympics and tournaments you will reach a level on the ground far beyond most of the people that train for them.

I think seoi nage works well with people of a relativly equal height because I have never seen it work in live randori on a person who has a notable height advantage. I would personally never use it on someone who is taller then me by more then 3 inches because they have too much leverage and could easily counter/nullify it unless they have no grappling experience. Hip throws and reaps are better suited for taller opponents.

It's not a lock that a judoka would win. I think the average Samboist is better on the ground then the average judoka. They have a stronger juji gatame IMO and those devasting leglocks. But as I said before the two arts are so intertwined that you would be hard pressed to find an old school judoka who doesn't know some sambo. Hint... hint

Shuai chaio has every greco roman takedown. But Greco doesn't have hardly any shuai chaio throws. Shuai chaio has no ground work all. Both are extremly hard to take down to the ground and the training will make you tough as nails. If I had to pick one it would be Shuai Chaio simply because It is a nastier version of Judo but without the ground work. I also think it would work better on the streets as it is in my opinion the most effective form of kung fu ever devised followed by baji quan.

I would also recommend chinese fast wrestling or "shuai chaio". They have every throw used in judo and then some. The difference being that they don't really joust for position as much because the aim in chinese fast wrestling is to grab and throw as quickly as possible. But from what I've seen the throws are done at a much higher alltitude and at a much more punishing velocity. They also have just about every Greco take down as well.

Many of the pride nhb guy's are starting to want to know judo because the throws are pretty much unstoppable when you learn them properly. More and more guy's are using judo like take downs because of the fear of getting KO'ed by a knee to the head ala Ralph Gracie. That has been happening to some of the BJJ teams when fighting in pride events, so they are very reluctant to shoot in, and now try to stand and trade strikes with their japanese counterparts as was done in the last bushido event when Noriega fought Nawarga. And any judoka worth his belt knows how to execute an over the back throw such as seoi nage without getting choked out from behind. We train for it. I've been doing Judo for over 3 decades and Have rarely seen it happen. My advice to you BJJ guy's is to seriously start training judo. It will help your ukemi (breakfalls) and help you to defend against a good judo player. I remember the first few BJJ youngsters I trained with. In truth their ground game was more advanced then mine when you look at how long I have studied Judo (34 years) vs how long they had done BJJ (6 years). But I as good as they were it was almost comical how easy it was for me to tap them coming off of a throw. They literally had no idea how to defend it so they started flopping to their guards. Ippon seoi nage into juji gatame (cross body armbar) almost at will. And trust me when I tell you it will be much harder for you to get a good judoka to the ground using basic shoots then it will be for him to put you on your back, or side, or head if you're not careful. But having said that, most judoka will have very little success in tapping a bjj guy on the ground if they fail to get it off of the throw unless he/she is truly gifted on the ground.

All very valid points. I belive the distinction lies somewhere in the middle between Training methods and types of techniques. I will say this until the cows come home and I know it's not PC but I do think that some styles are just flatout better then others. It can also mean dead styles or styles that are no longer actively growing and evolving with the times. And yes Judo is considered a modren style and it does adapt as far as training methods and such.

I hate these stupid terms by the way. Martial Athlete, Mixed Marial arts. Why not just call them martial artists and martial arts? Isn't a "martial athlete" a martial artist? Is a judoka considered a martial athlete? We run, lift weight's, work the medicine ball and stuff. Some martial artists may train more athletically then others but they are still martial artist's.

Another good post. I agree 100% in a clinch you can pull off some nasty stuff. I still say the throat is a long shot but you can definetly gouge the eye's or knee his balls from the clinch. Unless he is trained in how to operate from the clinch of course.

Good post. You can also add in adrenaline which changes everything. It has been well documented that when the body is under the influence of adrenaline that you lose accuracy and you would be hard pressed to land a solid blow to the throat or the eye's. Hell even balls are hard to get to when your fighting hard. Fortunatly you can train to overcome this with adrenal stress training offered by various "reality based" martial art instructors out there. In my experience the feeling a person get's in the ring is totally different then the one you get in a street fight.

Excellent post. Thats the reason I asked because I was talking to a guy who swore up and down that heel hooks affect the ankle as well as the knee. I have always thought that it effects the knee exclusively. Oh well, live and learn.

Martial applies to the principals of physical combat that are systematically put together and applied forcefully on aggressors or people who need to be put down. The art comes in as the various individual expessions of those principals. So if we go by that definition then yes boxing is a martial art as is wrestling. For example; take a street brawler. He punches, clinches, kicks, he uses his knees and his elbows when he fights. Now take a thai boxer. He does the same thing, so what is the difference? The difference is that thai boxing took all of those moves and systematized them. Basically perfecting how to effectively knee, punch, kick , elbow and clinch. And by adding drills to boost speed, power, timing, and endurance you have what is (arguably) today the most simple yet brutally effective striking art in the world. Designed for combat, which makes it martial, yet each fighter has his own strengths and ways to express it, making it an art.

If you are not an aggresive person then I will recommend BJJ. Stay away from judo. Other then that, rb gave an excellent analylisis of the two arts. Great job rb. Not much to add onto from there.

I'll give you a wing chun example of what I mean by unatural movements. Let's take grandmaster Leung Tings style of wing tsun. His is considered to be the most hardcore of all variations of WC. Yet as hardcore as it is it contains no blocking and no backing up, the theory being if you have to back up you might as well turn and run away. Ok, sounds good... show me that in the streets. The system limits itself to forward and side to side angles of attack but no backing up? What happens if the guy bullsrushes you, or you trip over something and fall on your *? In the chaos of real fighting it is ridiculous to adhere to such an assenine statement. In a real fight you must be able to do whatever you need to do to survive, including backing up to give yourself some space if need be. No blocking, Are you nuts? Why is trapping allowed but not locking? Why do we do chi sao but no full speed trapping? It makes no sense and yet people do it without questioning it everyday. Why can't a trap become a lock? These are the types of questions you need to ask when you are training WC next time. It takes me back to my statement that WC is a martial art with sound theories but horrible training methods. But as with most generalizations, YEMV (your experience may vary)

I have never seen a Sport MA that didn't bring you along slowly. This includes Judo and bjj. No martial art in my experience just throws you out amongst the wolves without proper training first. Hell you can get through a large BJJ school without ever having to compete in grappling events at all. Just don't expect to earn your blackbelt though.

Anybody out there? JohnnyS ? Sevenstar? kenpo4life? Treebranch? sano? WHERE ARE YOU???????????????

Does anybody know what bones and/or ligaments are effected during the following joint locks. Heelhook Achilles lock ankle lock calf crush

I agree somewhat. People need to get principals down before you introduce them to full contact. There is also the problem of making a person timid if you bring them into full contact too quickly.

Your exactly right, it's not a reverse triangle it's a variation of yoko sankaku jime or scissors choke. With this choke you don't need the persons arm to serve as the aid for the choke because the crook of the back of your knee is the base and your lower leg and calf region put the pressure on the carotid in effect making it like a naked choke with the leg. It can be apllied from several positions in combination with an armbar for a really nasty effect. (Edit: It's not called yoko sankaku jime. It's called hasami jime. It's a relic of JJJ.)

that is correct, to an extent. muay has been around in some form for a LONG time, but the the current muay - muay thai - and it's gloved format ahs only been around since the 1920's making it modern. MT is a traditional art but I think what our friend means is Karate or kung fu you know the usual sterotypes for what a TMA is.

I'm interested in what you've got to say Judoguy, could you give some more details? Where they to slow, unable to use any techniques, overpowered perhaps? Who were they fighting against a street brawler or someone with training? If it was someone with training were they able to use their techniques more easily, or effectivly? I'm also interested to hear what anyone else has to say about this. Wing Chun has been mentioned as effective numerous times on these boards and in training I've always found it to be quite straight forward and logical in its approach and having effective strikes and defences. I'd say the striking aspect of it seem in principle at least as effective as the limited Kick Boxing I did, can anyone else compare them with more experience? The main problem I have is timing, to correctly recognise what I'm seeing and feeling and being reactive to it with my Wing Chun. This is something I expect to improve with training and sparring. I'm very keen to spar with people from other arts, or indeed with no training at all because I doubt I'll ever have to fight another Wing Chun guy in the street and I think that unpredictability is important. Hey Nick_UKWC. First off I would like to say thank you for the spirit in which you asked this question. You asked in a way that indicates that you are willing to listen and learn and I can appreciate that. It's very refreshing, especially around here where any questioning of someones art and/or training methods is considered sacrilage (spelling?) Anyway to answer your question I have trained in martial arts for 34 years. Judo mostly, but I have trained with and fought people from various styles. I'm also a police officer who has trained defensive tactics to various organizations and to civilians as well. I like Sevenstar agree that the training methods play a huge role in what makes or breaks a marial art(tist) But it goes beyond that. I used to think that any martial art could be used successfully if the stylist trains full contact all the time. But then as I progressed in my studies I came to the realization that all styles aren't created equal and that some are in fact BETTER then others. I noticed that the people who could make their wingchun, aikido, and kung fu work were able to do so because they only used the techniques with the highest success probability. Alot of the other less useful techniques were filtered out so to speak. Rather the person consciously knew that they were in fact filtering out those techniques I don't know. But what I do know is that the martial arts that are highly successful I.E. muay thai, Kyokushin, judo, bjj, boxing, etc. is because they focus on techniques that are more atuned to natural human movements. What do I mean by that? If you were to watch video of streetfights you would see that most fights usually have the same sequence of events. Shoving, clinching, grappling/wrestling, punching, and sometimes kicking.( Edit: I'm not talking about the mental aspects that lead up to the fights, but only of the actual physical act of fighting.) They don't alway's happen in that order but you can work the scenario out any way you choose to. From those various fighting angles if you look closely, you can start to see why muay thai, kyokushin, judo, bjj, wrestling or boxing would work. Those arts are not based on movements of animals or insects, but of human movements. Basically in a sense they have evolved from the chaos of the kind of street fighting you see on those crazy videos and into what they are now. The movements are simple, graceful, and feel natural. Not clumsy or inhibiting like some complicated kung fu forms and karate katas are. They naturally flow with the chaos of a real fight and have become systematised for maximum efficiency. As for your wing chun I would say that some of the movements are natural and some aren't, but the centerline theories of Wing Chun are sound. The only problem with most WC styles are in fact the training methods. Start training full contact and you will get the results you want. But I must warn you not to be suprised if you end up eliminating alot of your techniques in favor of the more useful ones. Your style of fighting will start to look less like wing chun and more like boxing and /or muay thai.