judoguy

I forgot about Remco and those guy's in the early ufc events. THey were good judo guy's but nowhere the level of Yoshida and Karo.

Well said. Essentally the same point I was trying to make but I have the tendency to turn short and sweet into long and boring, sorry.

fair enough but look at the facts, There are great stlyes or karate out there and a few practicioners have had sucess in MMA(mostly Kyokushin guys) but numbers dont lie and karate practicioners havent had a % of the sucess of BJJ fighters or other grapplers..especially if your talking about people who train primarily in one stlye. I know what you are saying tjs, but I think what he/she was trying to say was you will have more success if you train with a full contact style like kyokushin, eshin ryu, or shidokan. Same with styles of kung fu that are hard core like shuai chiao, baji quan, or hun gar. Admittedly those styles are not a serious factor in NHB because the overwhelming majority of people in the sport train in a combo a muay thai, bjj, wrestling and boxing, but underrepresentation does not mean ineffective. One only has to look at the resent rise of judo stylists in mma. Judo for the most part was totally silent in nhb for years until worldclass judoka started to get in the mix and have had great success because guy's had been training in bjj, muay thai, and wrestling only. They were training to defend primarily against the double leg and then all of a sudden here comes this guy who basically flips them head over heels onto the mat hard and now are all of a sudden they are out of their element and forced to deal with something new. If you think that judo guy is having success then whats going to happen when worldclass shuai chiao stylists get in the mix. Those guy's have even nastier more powerful versions of judo throws in their bag of tricks. What happens when baji quan, a style that most knowledgable people say could replace muay thai as the premier striking art in the world if they added more concentrated knee and elbow strikes, get's in the mix. I've seen a guy get knocked out with a shoulder butt in baji quan. My point is NHB is an ever evolving sport and when these other guy's decide to try their hand at it trust me when I tell you they will have good success. Boxing, wrestling, Muay thai, and bjj are great, but there are other very effective martial arts out there waiting to be added to the mix and it would do you well to check them out so that you will have an edge over your opponents .

I have been in the martial arts for over 25 years and I've been a cop and done security for 13 years so yes I do have lot's of stories to tell.

You made some great points and some rather weak points. You will absolutely be in trouble if you do a choke on the street unless you have a few witnesses to back up your version of the events, but pummeling them into submission isn't exactly helpful either. Grapplers are at a paticular disadvantage when it comes to self defense because they have the ability to inflict great bodily harm very quickly to an opponent. But as a grappler you also have pins and compliance locks in your arsenal do you not? If you don't know compliance holds then you should know that you don't exactly HAVE to break the joint when applying an armbar or shoulder lock do you? And if you are involved in an altercation with an angry relative and it gets out of hand then choking them out isn't any worse of an idea then say, punching and kicking them right? In my experience knowledge of grappling has saved my butt on more then one occasion. It's helped me to avoid being taken to the ground, it's helped me to fall properly when I have been taken down, it's helped me throw someone to the ground hard enough to make them think twice about continuing to fight, and it's helped me to avoid being beaten to death in a small riot. But if the topic is about bjj in paticular and not grappling in general then I can see your point. If you train to fight primarily for the ground you will instinctively want to take every altercation to the ground since that is how you train. As a judoka I have a few more options then a bjj guy does so maybe this doesn't apply to me in paticular.

Hapkido is VERY effective on the streets. I'll share a story with you about a guy I used to do security with who was a hapkido blackbelt. We were hired to do some security work for a popular Los angeles night spot where one of the clubs female employees was a bartender. Well apparently her boyfriend wasn't very happy about her profession so eventually she broke it off with him. Anyway this guy wasn't too happy about this so one night he began calling her and harrassing her at work, 23 times! She was disturbed by this and wanted us to walk her out to her car after work and sure enough he was there waiting. My collegue walked out to where the guy was standing and tried to talk to this guy calmly about leaving her alone at work and that sort of thing. He kept a distance of about 5 feet and the guy was livid that his girlfriend didn't want to talk to him so he started to approach the girl and me. I'm thinking to myself here we go, I'm going to have to handle this guy but my buddy cut him off and the guy tried to punch him. He side stepped the punch and grabbed ahold of this guy and used what appeared to be some kind of aikido type of throw that sent this guy literally flying over the hood of his car! He then pinned the guy down while I called the cops. Now personally i'm not into aikido or any style that doesn't incorporate full force/full resistance training but I will always recommend a system that I have actually seen work on the streets and hapkido is one of those.

Judo was not created as a sport art. Judo was developed as an upgrade of older jujitsu. It allowed it's practitioners to safely train realistically with full force as opposed to kata only training, fighting with armor, and weapons. Judo is the martial art to thank for the evolution of old into new. Bjj came from judo in an attempt to nullify strength by pure technique alone and the ground logically takes away that advantage seeing as though a would be attaker would have no leverage on the ground thus allowing smaller people a better chance of beating someone bigger. But there are stand up techniques in BJJ. It was intended to purely be a combat art but is now begining to suffer the same fate as judo in becoming too sport oriented. Now that Helio has codified the core techniques of bjj in "Gracie jiu juitsu: the master text" it has officially become a dead art like judo. When I say a dead art I mean as far as adding NEW techniques to the core curriculam. Certainly you will have variations of the techniques but the tried and true techniques are what will stand as canon much like the 67 throws and 29 grappling techniques of the kodokan.

If you do that you will get submitted via crucifix. If applied on the mat you can tap out, on the streets, well... Thing is you will NOT escape a properly applied full nelson period. It's like asking how to escape a rear naked choke once it's properly applied, or how to defend yourself after you've been knocked out, It ain't happening. If you have an edged weapon it's possible, but in hand to hand combat against someone that has it locked in with the proper grip it's not going to happen. If he has his fingers interlaced like most street punks will then it's easy to escape by either reaching back and sqeezing his fingers together or by dropping to the side and If you are the person being nelsoned, you can trap one of his arms with your elbow before he joins hands, and roll to the side. Now, hip heist and turn toward him, and you have side control. Your best bet is that in most fights the guy is not going to just stand there and hold you in a full nelson,so your best chance of escape is in the time he transitions to what ever it is he's going to do next. I know it sounds bleak but try having Gene Lebell put you in one of his full nelsons and then get back to me.

Oh I forgot to mention that I have done kata guruma on the streets but it was the "lumberjack" variation

I really hate having to name a favorite technique, but for the sake of the topic... On the mat I prefer throws that are easy to turn into submissions so I like Sumi Gaeshi into Ude garami. Tawara gaeshi, tomoe nage (the over the side variation as opposed to up and over) and all variations of kata guruma. On the street I will take what an opponent gives me. I know that the majority of street opponents are in fact untrained in breakfalling or in counters but I still prefer throws that don't give up my back, or risk landing on my back unless absolutely necessary because as the saying goes assumption is the mother of all screw-up's. I have used Kouchi gari and ouchi gari mostly because of the ease to pull off when clinched. If I have to give up my back it will be o goshi and tai otoshi. Only once under the most extreme circumstance I have had to use a sacrifice throw (uki waza) against a guy who was 6'4" 270 lbs while working security for a semi-famous actor/comedian and that was not very plesant for me (or him for that matter).

Most JJJ styles teach no foot/ankle locks at all. But you most likely will learn some calf crushes and other stuff that mess with the pressure points in the leg area. As for classical jujitsu not working it all depends on your objectives. It may not work on a trained BJJ or Judo stylist but it sure as heck will work in the streets and in some cases I prefer the JJJ way to do a technique over the Judo/Bjj way. An example is the rear naked choke. In bjj you will be taught to put your hooks in to make for better control. In JJJ they teach the old knee in the spine version. On the mat I prefer the modern way. But on the streets There is no way on God's green earth that I'm laying on the ground with my legs Grapevined or figure 4'd around my opponent. I will do the knee in the spine version even though it's less secure because you can disengage quickly if you have to. In other words, LEARN BOTH WAYS!!!

Hey Treebranch, just to let you know most of those throws that are designed to break the arm or wrist are not going to cause projection. For example if you look at one of jujitsu's most demonstrated techniques; the wristlock throw, it really won't cause the person to filp in a graceful arc to the ground but would splinter the wrist. The reason people flip/breakfall is to avoid serious injury. The same can be said of most arm breaking throws. An example of this is Renzo Gracie v Sakuraba. Sak performed a standing kimura lock on Renzo. Renzo tried to breakfall but the damage had all ready been done and his elbow was dislocated. If a person has his/her arm busted during a throw it most likely is purely accidental if not incidental. A keylock takedown is another example. If done at full force it will cause a takedown, but it will also damage the shoulder before the opponent has a chance to go with it, but when done with a little less force, such as in a JJJ demonstration it will allow the uke time to react and flow with the technique. Just my 2 cents.

If it's a one on one fight I'll go for a choke as soon as it is open to end it quickly, but if it's multiple attakers and I felt as though my life was in danger I go with the unfailable gmaot technique. (get my * outta there)

You'll get no argument from me on that fact. Striking and grappling are both essential for combat.

Oh and by the way, if two fighters have equal skill but one is bigger and stronger then the other then physical attributes make a difference.

Opps double post.

Ok now I see why you said what you said Sevenstar. I left out some info in that post. What I meant to say was that not having to rely on physical attributes, but purely ojn skill/technique is what makes people trained in the grappling arts be able to defeat larger opponents who rely on physical atributes. My statement regarding the woman who was a judo expert and killed her husband using judo in self defense was meant to be an example of this. Sorry about the lack of clarity.

speed is VERY relative here. humans can only achieve so much of it. If greater amounts of speed could be produced, you'd see little guys like de la hoya knocking out big guys like tyson, but that will never happen. That's why there are weight classes. a human will only be able to achieve so much speed - chances are, the big guy will not be too much slower than the little guy. So, the big guy with more mass and slighly less speed still puts out more force than a faster little guy. strength is very much necessary in striking, as speed isn't THAT much of an equalizer. I disagree with judoguy too though - endurance is a must have, especially if you compete, but you can have all the endurance in the world and still lose if your opponent is more skilled than you. in grappling, you really need to understand kazushi, tsuri and kake. on the ground, you really need to understand space, timing and leverage. All of this combined with relaxation produces a good grappler. The attributes are a key point, but at the heart of it all is skill level. Where's the disagreement? The implication of the latter part of my post indicates that technique/skill level are what matter . I was saying that grapplers rely less on physical attributes then most other styles of combat. And what happens if you have two opponents of equal skill level? Endurance wins the day in that battle don't you think?

What we are talking about here are attribute based arts. Striking arts tend to rely more on physical attributes ie: speed, strength, then grappling arts generally do. That is not to say that arts like judo and bjj don't require some attributes but generally grappling arts don't. Endurance is the key attribute in most serious grappling styles. That is what allows for smaller people to beat larger ones. I belive a lady who was a judo blackbelt killed her husband years ago in selfdefense.

And also Karo's ukemi is so good that when he gets taken down he just rolls right over you and reverses position easily. He has really incorporated his judo into mma very well.

Excellent analyses. Especially the latter part. One interesting match was Karo Parisian v Nick Diaz. Prior to the fight Nick commented that this was a bad match up for him. Nick is a much better striker then Karo but was very tenative in his striking against Karo for fear of big throws and take downs right into submissions. Nicks ground game was not the problem because he is very good on the ground, but his fear of clinching with Karo hurt him in the fight. Same goes for Randy Couture in all of his fights. He regularly defeats great strikers because they are too concerned about getting taken down, pinned against the fence and pounded. People had better start learning Greco and/or judo or you will see this happening more and more.

It'll be in your paypal account pronto!

I think that fights are more or less lost in the clinch and in the takedown. It is getting harder and harder to take guy's down and keep them down which is why people are having a renewed interest in judo and the like. The best guys at takedowns are guys that can utilize rare/exotic takedowns like Karo Parisyan, Randy Couture, and Genki Sudo. Rare/Exotic takedowns also help to give them the nod when a fight goes to the judges.

Wow I guess I was reading too much into the comments. Some of the very people who I thought were saying that it doesn't have good ground work are posting very positive things in response to my topic. Thank you all.

I'm relatively new to this forum but in my short time here I have noticed something. Some people on this forum seem to be under the impression that judo has little to no ground work, or that the ground work is crap. The misconception seems to be that judo has SOME groundwork in the way that BJJ has SOME throws. If that is the case then it is WAAAAY off base. The ne waza in judo is very rich indeed IF the student chooses to devote himself to it. The positions, the transitions, and the submissions are complex and effective. I'm not saying that judo ground work is as advanced as bjj in the sense that bjj has some positions that are not seen in judo. But I will not submit that judo has SOME groundwork in the way that bjj has SOME throws. I don't want to start a flame war or anything like that because if you truly understand my statement then there really isn't anything to argue about. Let me know what you all think. Edit: I'm including kosen judo in the conversation even though the rules are different from kodokan in that they do newaza nearly exclusively and have no time limits in their newaza matches, it is still judo none the less.