AngelaG

My main style is Shotokan. And I love it!

I can't really explain it because even to myself the definitions are blurry in my own head, it's a feeling rather than a substansive thing. This does not mean by the way that I think one system is more worthy than the other. Nor does it have any bearing on effectiveness etc.

Very risky move. I have trained this and it is hard in a controlled situation, now try it with someone moving, the adrenaline flowing and the attacker moving the knife hand around. Remember if a knife is shown plan on getting cut. I have to agree. This move is too fancy and hazardous. That is why I stated using a jacket or chair, etc. I usually find that when walking home from the pub late at night that there is an appalling dearth of handy jackets and chairs to grab, and what attacker is going to stand still whilst you strip off? I know someone that has used the move I mentioned and it worked, and they are alive safe and well. Yeah prepare to get cut but preferably not stabbed in the heart or other internal organs!

If the karate school trained in a similar manner to your OCFM school, do you think it would be more effective? why or why not? Right I think I am confusing the matter here by not putting exactly what I mean. First of all my karate school and my OCFM school are one and the same - exactly the same instructor, two different styles. Secondly we have two different styles of sparring in the Shotokan, one is the kumite competition style sparring, light to mid contact and as I said good for a lot of things but not self defence. Then we have a different group of oyo exercises where one person attacks, full force and power, with hook punches and straight punches and we deal with the punch and then deal with the attacker. Thirdly because of the fact my instructor for OCFM and karate are one and the same and everyone at the moment that does OCFM at my club also does the karate lessons it means he can adjust the lessons around us, he knows what are strong and weak points are etc.

I just felt like your post was little mocking. I don't really care if OCFM is like a million other things out there because it works for me. It does exactly what I want and need it to do. I enjoy the instruction from the people within it, so why should I care what anybody else is or is not doing? It is not taught as some sort of new concept, it's a plain and simple this is this, use it/don't use it up to you. But you have to live with yourself if you beat someone up, stamp on their ankles and leave them crippled - they lead the way then we choose our own path. I don't know what you mean about tactical systems, I can only really give an educated opinion on what I have studied. Anything else would be pure speculation. But I see my Shotokan as an art. The traditions such as bowing, dojo kun, respect for those that have gone before, courtesy, to me make it a bit different. And the fact that it should only ever be used as a last resort in self defence. I guess there are karate clubs out there that I feel are taking the art out of their systems. Not that I disagree with this, as I've said before everyone has their niche, who am I to decide what other people can and can't do?

Not where I live and I train for the circumstances that I will encounter. The likelihood of a knife is small enough, but a gun.. it's just not going to happen.

Hiya I do shotokan

Yeah controlled sparring is great for certain stuff, and I do it elsewhere. OCFM supplements all that. Currently everyone that takes OCFM at our club also takes the karate lessons so there is no need to go through certain things that we may have to if a new person starts but does not do the karate. I know - I never said they weren't Oh it came from the moon! Yawn! Thanks for yet another thought-provoking and meaningful (and obviously well-researched post MM . Do you realise how obtuse you sound making such sweeping judgements on the back of a post from one practitioner in the art? In my eyes OCFM is not really a martial art actually, there is much martial but very little art. In the same way I choose to think that sports such as boxing are not martial arts. Yes the boxers are very skilled, highly trained, hard athletes and could hand me my butt in a bag, but IMO they are all Martial and no Art. The art comes stuff like the old traditions carrying on that do nothing to make one a better fighter but carry on nevertheless. I love my karate, and if I had to choose between oCFM and karate karate would in hands down every day. OCFM has it's plus sides and as a self-defence thing it is very good, and it has some fantastic teachers who are also fantastic MAs across a wide range of styles, they are all really enthusiastic about what they teach and nothing is hidden from anyone. A beginner can be taught exactly the same lesson as someone who has been attending for years. So anyway, I'll keep on studying my "same-ol same-ol" if it's all the same to you. I don't really care what you think as I am the one that studies it, I am the one who sees the benefits it brings and only the people that actually look into it properly and attend at least one training session are the one's that are fully equipped to judge IMO!

Hey I think we may have to agree to disagree . I probably got it wrong with the two lethal to spar comment - or at least didn't explain it quite how I wanted. I do know that balance points and quadrant theory are used elsewhere, I wasn't saying they were't. It's just you told me to read up on it and I was pointing out that I do actually train up on it - I'm not just an armchair warrior I have two different lessons styles. Shotokan is the usual kihon, kumite, kata. We also do a lot of oyo and bunkai though. OCFM usually starts by us doing something really hot and sweaty, such as one person holding a shield or hook and jab pads whilst the other hits, kicks etc. using as much hip as possible for power. We will also do exercises where we have to do 10 push ups, the pad holder moves away, we get up and find them do a set combo, then do 10 push ups etc. So we do spar but not in a karate way of sparring as it's not all tippy tappy point scoring. It's a bit like that I don't see two boxers really going for it in the ing as "sparring", they are fighting, pure and simple. After we've all got very hot and tired we'll sometimes do scenario exercises, such as someone is grabbing you get out of it, or someone has got on top of you get out of it etc. Then after that we will do a bit more slower paced technical stuff, look at the theory behind what we practice etc. If I want kumite type sparring I can do it in my karate, and it's nice for control, distance, timing, speed, balance etc; but it's completely cr*p for self-defence.

A jacket or a chair? If I was the kind of person to point a gun at you and you started messing around with chairs or jackets etc. you would be dead before you so much as got a real grasp on it. A gun is even quicker to use than a knife, with the added extra that you don't need to be close distance to use it. People with guns are all hyped up by th power surge, the adrenaline rush and they'll also probably be fearful too. The quickest thing you can use is your hands, so use them. The technique works - why go searching for added complications?

that's probably right but dont depend on it. When a knife comes out your probabaly getting cut. Yeah, I think you are probably right - or at the very least that's the way you should train. You will get cut but minimise the risk and the potential fatality of the strike.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't continue quoting but they way you write as a massive quote but with some bold and some not makes it quite hard for me to read, and takes too long to sort out when I want to quote sections. Firstly if you see my styles you will see that I don't just do one traditional MA (Shotokan), I also cross train in Open Circle Fighting Method. Now, you will probably think I am just being a naive loyal follower but I believe that the Open Circle Institute has some of the leading authorities on subjects such as Body Alarm Reaction, Balance Points, Quadrant Theory etc. I don't need to read up on it, I am trained by highly skilled people every week - they are a mine of information! OCFM is not a sparring style. You can't really spar in it because it is not a game, it is a potentially lethal fighting method, where techniques such as stomping on people's ankles are viable and effective methods. There are no rules whatsoever, it's survival of the fittest. We don't say that you have to kick or punch above the belt. Everything is a viable target. There are practioners in OCFM that would eat you up for breakfast and not even suffer from indigestion (or something ) Anyway, I guess that what I actually truly think is that fighting skill is something you have or don't have. There are totally untrained people out there that will rip off your head and spit down your neck. In the same way there are awesome karateka, there are awesome MTists, there are mediocre karateka etc. etc. Well hopefully you get my point! It's more down to the person than any MA they study - that just helps hone the already sharpened blade It's been nice verbally sparring with you, I hope there's no hard feelings

Mine changes depending on the technique I am doing. So kick kiai sounds different from punch kiai. And then it'll change depending on what sort of mood I am in (focused, happy, angry etc) and how tired I am. When I am really going for it and kicking a person it does tend to sound like, "DIE!", which my instructor always says isn't very nice!

That's cool, I can deal with that. Because if I have followed my training properly I have initially struck you on the head or neck to shock and stun you, and have possibly even already knocked you out. If not I have grabbed your head (remember I said I was using my hikite hand was holding you head, not your hand!) I pull your head towards me (at this point while you are so off balanced you can hit me all you want - you'll have no power to your strike - and yes we have practiced this in training). At the same time as me pulling your head I also strike back out with my other hand to your head/face/neck - whatever presents itself best. At all times my hands will be on the same level as your head, I have simply adjusted where that level is. Fear shmear. Firstly I am talking the body's natural reaction, not me dressing up in a scary mask and saying "wooooooo". Secondly I am still talking proper strikes as well. I suggest you read up or actually train in something for a while before you pass judgement on it. Secondly why are we assuming it is two trained martial artists fighting each other, and not just comparing how two MAs would last in a fight situation. The majority of the MAs out there are taught that it for use in SD only, if we are all taught this then the likelihood of two properly trained MAs getting into a fight with other are minimal. I suspect I will never have to use my art against a tranined person once outside the dojo. Obviously I would still train as though I am fighting the hardest, highest trained Mo-fos out there - but that's only because I believe in training to max potential to get max results with min efforts. Oookay! I am not going to start childish debates on this. If you know what I was trying to say you are being deliberately nitpicking in order to inflame the situation. Like I said I am not going to resort to childish arguments, I am only interested in rational, educated (friendly ) debate. Using balance points I can still actually take them in a variety of directions based on their body positioning anyway. The human body is not as stable as you think.

Striking of course, what did you think? I was waving down a cab? I'd like to see how much you could resist once I have used Body Alarm Reaction on you! Not more than I could pull you. Your perogative - but it's still the truth of body mechanics and basic physics But I am not pulling a fully grown, fit male towards me, I am letting them go where they already decided they wanted to go but assisting them for my benefit. They have also been stunned by my lightning quick reactions and a strike to the head/neck. Errr Wasn't that what I already put in my earlier post? Right here in fact?? Regards Angela

I heard somewhere that if someone shows you a knife (i.e. waving it around) they are less likely to use it. it's the people that keep it secreted about their person until they strike you have to worry about. If a person is holding a knife to you the best thing to do is get rid of the weapon, even if they punch you after it's better than being stabbed. To do this using relaxed hands slap them straight across the back of the hand one way, simultaneously slapping across the inside of the wrist the other way. The knife will go flying though, so it can be a bit of a gamble that it doesn't stab you, him or a passing bystander as it shoots off

I never need to use my Martial Arts. I just fix them with an icy blue stare and they tremble and weep with fear. If they are REALLY mean sometimes I might even cut the to pieces with a sharp, witty, observational comment. The only time I've ever had to use my MA was quite boring really. I was coming out of the dojo one night and these 8 guys approached me. They were all armed, one had a knife, one a baseball bat, another a pistol, and the rest with various weapons -such as tomahawk missiles, apache helicopters, small nuclear devices etc... usual fair on a Friday night in Devon. Anyway, they walked up to me and asked for my money - ironically I had just drawn my spending money for the weekend out of the bank earlier that day, it was only £1,000,000 so I wasn't overly concerned - what's a little cash compared to one's life? Anyway...I could tell that 4 were drunk, the other 4 were pub landlords. One points his cruise missile to me and I hand over my money, my keys to my lotus esprit, the front door key to my small summer home in the bahamas and the keys to the small space station I own, that is currently orbiting the earth. Apparently this wasn't good enough for them, and one of them starts getting really agitated. I'm trying to get them to calm down by telling small amusing jokes and anecdotes but they are having none of it... One of them starts keying in the codes for his nuclear missile - What's a girl to do??? Well, the thing I've trained for every day in the dojo. I quickly whipped out my mobile phone and dialled one 9 in... they paused as they realised what I was doing... then another 9... they start backing off - just then they wimped out and started to run. Luckily for me they ran straight across the small minefield I had strategically placed out only 4 hours previously!! It took 4 of them out and I took another one out by throwing my mobile phone at his retreating head. Anyway - I decided to just go home and have a nice cup of tea. The next morning the paper came though and apparently the guys I took out were some very wanted people. The names don't mean much to me though Mr. O.B Laden, Mr. S. Hussein, Mr. A. Capone, Mr. N. Bates and Mr. M. Myers. Anyway I kept quiet about it, after all I was only doing my duty as a good minded citizen. Angela (Tongue very firmly in cheek)

Where are my hands? Primarily shifting and parrying followed by immediate strikes to their body and/or head. After that they may be grabbing appendages etc. Obviously you do not grab a determined person and start trying to fight them in a tug-of-war, matching strength to strength. A good MAist should be able to fight someone regardless of size differences etc. Anyway if you train properly you learn not to pull a person but in fact to redirect their power in the way you want it to go.

Try purchasing a wobble board, or something similar.

I guess our oldest member is 50-odd... but I've never asked him his age... he's a lot higher grade than me

You'd think someone else coming out with a confession like that would make me feel less insane but.. nope. It's the way you have to jerk to innocent attention if someone comes in unexpectedly!

Its a shame, Shorin Ryuu, that not many people know the application of hikite. Especially those who practise it without knowing what its for. I think alot of us inderstand that. I know that the chamber can be a grabbing hand. know that some of the movements are supposed to be breaks, or can be breaks, i.e. a high block and techniques like the second technique in heian nidan. A shuto block can be a strike to the neck, etc... BUT, as vito said, if you drop your hand like that, you deserve to get hit in the face. you should train the applications of the kata, but know how to integrate them without compromising your defense. You are assuming that you are grabbing their arms or stun them. Think of it instead that I have grabbed someone's hair and I am now pulling their head back to hikite position as I simultaneously strike with the other hand (both hands work together). Anybody that can get a decent punch in from that position is a superman. Or if you are grabbing an arm it is done after you have used something like Body Alarm Reaction to technique. In my organisation is is called "earning the right to land your technique". When I saw Martial Athlete the first thing I thought was the competition light contact TKD type matches. Here's a story for you, my instructor had a friend who got very heavily into the competition type sparring. He would train for it on a daily basis and was very good at what he did - a very fast and nimble guy. One day he was stopped by a mugger on his way home, and the MAist went for a stomach shot, which he landed with perfect precision, semi-contact as he had diligently trained for every day!!. He even added in a fiercesome kiai for good measure. Luckily for this guy the mugger was so spooked by this insane guy that he ran off, but the situation could have been a lot different. I train TMA, and we train oyo alongside kumite, close up fighting where you do not take your strikes to full extension, there are no rules such as only stright strikes to hinder you as there are no rules on the street... Everything is a target from top to toe and we can use whatever we want as a weapon. We will do this on a partner semi contact, and then we also use punch bags to ensure we train in striking though the opponent. I do shotokan. In the shotokan dojo down the road they do tippy tappy, no contact sparing only. Go figure - different instructors teach different things even within the same style!

I find it fun. It gets me out the house. It keeps me fit and healthy and flexible. I have made some great friends from the people there so it has seeped into social life as well. It's exciting and everything is achieved on my own merits - I can take full credit for where I am today. Somewhere along the line it got under my skin and now MA seems to exist in every fibre in my body.

A few ways. A) Twist your torso from the hips so that they push through you and end up going past you. Use the twist from the hips to continue round with a strike to the back of their head. b)Trap their hands and then twist the torso from the hips as before. Use their hands as your play thing - go to town! If someone is stupid enough to gift you a limb then use it. c) Use a slapping motion in a down and out. Practice this so that you can push their hands far and wide without spreading your own guard. The best way to do this is make is a fast and hard strike rather than a pushy style strike. You've spread their guard so strike to the head and/or face - their forward motion makes it so much more effective. d) Pivot around one foot, parry their hands and using a monkey grip pull them in the direction of their punch and down.... They fall so hard to the floor that their kneecaps try to end halfway up their thighs. (This could be bunkai from the first move in heian yondan - especially if you pull down and are then quick enough to raise your hands back up into their face/throat/neck as they are falling downwards)

We do more traditional karate. We don't really believe in competitions. We mainly concentrate on kata/bunkai/oyo.