Master Jules

Make no mistake, the Goju Kai under Yamaguchi is not some half-a$$ed organization.....not by any means......they train hard.....very hard.....Im not disputing that. My point is that in comparison to Okinawan Goju, there are differences. Differences in the performance of certain kata, differences in the bunkai interpretations, and to me, thats the root of the secrets of the system, and although Yamaguchi was a great martial artist in his own right, he nor anyone else for that matter is even remotely qualified (compared to Miyagi) to make these changes. Most systems offer some type of meditative portion to the training, even if its just sitting in "Seiza" before and after class. And many people have become familiar with the famous pictures of Yamaguchi doing his "waterfall training", where he can be seen performing Tensho kata under a waterfall. The Okinawans though, are really much more hardcore when it comes to the body conditioning drills that you speak of. This all falls under an aspect of training known as "hojo undo" (supplemental training). Some of this includes the use of stone weights (chishi), gripping jars (nigiri game), makawara training for knuckles and edge of hand as well as fingertips, and one of my personal favorites, Kotei Kitae (forearm banging). Just remember.....even though the training might be considered "hard".....doesnt mean its right.......Goju Kai offers a good cirriculum, it really does. But its not the "original"......Its just not Okinawan Goju Ryu.......Im just a really hard core traditionalist, so for me there is no substitute ( and I still hold a sensei rank from 1996 in the USA/Urban Goju Ryu version).......If Japanese Goju Ryu under Yamaguchi's Goju Kai is as close as you can get to the "original" where you are......its still a better choice than many other things out there........give it a shot......and please let me know how I can be of further assistance.

Hey !! Cool post !.... MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL !!!! HAPPY HOLIDAYS !!!!!! HAPPY AND HEALTHY NEW YEAR !!!!! MAY THE BEST OF THIS PAST YEAR BE THE WORST OF THE NEW YEAR FOR EVERYBODY !!!!!!

Id rather punch the bark off a tree before I had to go running......If I wanna move myself quickly.....I jump in my car.

Ottman.....thank you most humbly for your compliment....but I have plenty of room for improvement as well, and thats why Ill never stop training.....ever. Str33t Guy......could you be more specific in your comment to Ottman.....Im just curious if you wouldnt mind elaborating on your post. Thanks.

In regards to kicks, yes, the Goju Kai does practice a lot of kicking above the waist line, whereas Okinawan Goju Ryu mostly kicks waistline and below. As far as Goju Kai being mostly striking oriented, that is true. The reason for this, as I mentioned in my earlier post, was because Yamaguchi didnt get the opportunity to really "get" the "whole" of Okinawan Goju Ryu. The Traditional system of Goju Ryu, while it is a "stand up punch and kick" system, also relies HEAVILY on grappling skills, a part of the system that many practicioners overlook. The grappling part of Okinawan Goju Ryu descends from the Chinese system of Shaolin Chin Na (seizing and grabbing) techniques. If you really study the blocking methods of Okinawan Goju Ryu, you will find them to be more "circular", rather than linear. This allows for the incorporation of the Chi Sau (sticky hands) techniques. The idea behind the Okinawan Goju blocks, is to (basically) meet the incoming technique, blend with it, and then trap and control the limb. A good example of this is the middle block.....As opposed to other systems which have a middle block that snaps across the body, and essentially smashes the incoming punch away to the side (the power of the block going in a linear fashion across the body), the Okinawan Goju block is more circular in nature, and the idea is to blend with the incoming punch, and bring your opponent CLOSER to you, so you can then grab and control the limb with a lock of some sort. Hapkido is a Korean art, which is generally taught side by side with TKD for example. This is because TKD is roughly 70% feet, 30% hands....Hapkido is roughly the opposite, and it contains all of the joint manipulations and locks and throws.....long and short of it is that it's kinda like Korean Jujitsu. Zen Do Kai..... Lets break that down, and itll be easier to understand. Zen is a school of Japanese philosophy, which was derived from the Chinese "Chan", which in turn was derived from Buddhist beliefs. In Japan, it was influenced by the Shinto religion, which holds nature in the highest regards. Do is the Japanese word for "way" Kai means "organization", as in "group" So, the Zen Do Kai is basically an organization that focuses on the philosophies of Zen. Doc......you say that you cant find any Traditional Okinawan Goju dojos in your area....where do you live ? Maybe I can help. Anyway.....thanks for the compliments, and dont hesitate to ask about anything youre curious about or interested in.....Feel free to contact me privately as well, and Ill do all I can to help.

Hey Doc..... Lemme give you a rundown on Goju Ryu lineage... Traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu was founded by Chojun Miyagi. His top students founded several "kans", or houses of Goju on Okinawa. A few main ones are : Shoreikan--Seikichi Toguchi Meibukan--Meitoku Yagi Jundokan--Eiichi Miyazato Shodokan--Seiko Higa Shobukan--Masanobu Shinjo These are the main, Traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu practicioners. Gogen Yamaguchi was a sporadic student of Miyagi for 12 years, and was appointed by Miyagi to represent Goju Ryu in Japan. He did make changes to the system, and since he didnt "get the whole system" from Miyagi, there are parts where he had to "fill in the blanks", which is why there are many glaring differences from Okinawan Goju compared to Japanese Goju. Yamaguchi named his organization "Goju Kai". To further all this, one of Yamaguchi's students was a UDT/SEAL team member named Peter Urban. When he returned to the USA, he founded a system called USA/Urban Goju Ryu, and when some of his top students (Frank Ruiz and Ron Taganashi) "broke away" back in the late 60's, they in turn founded there own version of the system, and called it "Nisei Goju Ryu", which means "second generation" Then there is also Ron Van Clief, who founded the system he now practices, called "Chinese Goju Ryu"

Whoa !.......hold on a sec there.......Goju is most definetely NOT "hard" in the kata as you say Ted......in fact Goju means "hard/soft".....however this is misinterpreted by many people.....it doesnt mean either "all hard", or "all soft", but rather hard and soft at the same time......Im not sure what form of Goju you saw, but if youll pause for a second to read my lil mini bio there on the left......trust me when I tell you that when it comes to Goju, I have a pretty good idea whats what.....

The harder you train, the easier "real life" situations will be......the more you experience in terms of other styles than your own, the more youll be familiar with, and the more techniques you will have in "your bag".....either way.....the keys to defeating an opponent are to train extra hard in terms of learning techniques, learning how to "read your opponent", and getting as much fighting experience as possible, so that when you do fight, you simply enter a "zone" where you are totally comfortable, and emotionless.

What types of problems are you experiencing while sparring ?

RUNNING !!!!!! And just in case anyone missed that.......RUNNING !!!!!!!!! I hate running......so I just dont do it.....I joke with everyone that I learned how to fight exceptionally well so that I DONT have to run.........I aint gonna chase you.......and if you wanna fight me....here I am....I aint going anywhere !....LOL

Ive said it before and Ill say it again..... "Belt hold up pants....get on mat and train".....

Gotchya.....kinda like reading a telegram I guess......

Oh.......you mean the dots............gotchya.......sorry bout that.....just a habit Ive developed over the years.....hope youall dont find it to annoying.....sorry again. ........

Whats the "full stop key" ????? And btw Str33t Guy....how old are you ?

Goju Kata.....they may be taught differently, and in a diffenrent order depending on the "kan", and the individual dojo.... Sanchin......keep in mind this form takes at least 3 years of diligent practice to really start to "understand and perform" reasonably well.....thats why its taught first.....it also contains all of the body mechanics applicable to Goju techniques. Next.....Basic form 1.....the beginning of the "gekisai" family....roughly the same as Gekisai 1, minus the stomp kick, elbow and backfist. Gekisai Dai Ichi Gekisai Dai Ni.....same as Ichi, but done with open hands, and finishing with a mawashi geri (circular block) Gekisai San.....slightly different.....starts out with a double middle block (like Sanseru.....fast punch out....slow retraction back to middle block), and begins to incorporate more advanced tecniques like the cranes head hand positioning, and open handed down blocks. The last in the Gekisai family is Geki Ha This also starts out like sanchin, double middle blocks, but the punches are fast out, fast in, like Seisan. This kata also begins to incorporate body shifting movements, and elements os the next kata, Saifa. The Gekisai family means "To Wage War" Next is Saifa, the first of the Old "koryo" katas. It means "smashing and grabbing", and its more advanced sister kata is Karurunfa....Note the "FA" at the end. After saifa comes Seyunchin, which means "controlling your opponent while he believes he controls you".....the sister kata to Seyunchin is Shisochin...."CHIN" being the chinese word for "battle" or conflict.....as in "Sanchin....3 battles...or 3 conflicts....breath body and posture.....mind body and spirit. After Seyunchin.....you begin with the numbered katas.....such as Seisan, or 13 hands.....Seisan is also known as the "fire kata"......some dojos teach Tensho at brown belt level, before Seisan....some after......Seisan being a black belt form.......next in line is the next numbered kata, Seipai, or 18 hands. Now heres where dojos make a difference......some dojos have modified the next kata, Sanseru.....close to the opening of the form, there is a double jump kick, a very advanced technique, which used to place the kata second from the top, just under Pechurin (Superempei)....some dojos have replaced that double jump kick with two consecutive front kicks...(Jundokan lineage...as seen on Morio Higoannas tapes)....much easier to do, and lowering the kata to brown, or even 1st degree black level...... Next form is Shisochin, meaning "four directional battle", followed by Kururunfa, also meaning "smashing and grabbing your opponent into little pieces"..... The final form is a numbered form.....Pechurin, or Superempei, meaning 108 hands...... You may have noticed a lot of the number 3, or derivatives thereof.......Goju is primarily a Buddhist art, and the number 3 plays a big part in their beliefs......Pechurin supposedly wards off evil spirits, which is why when it is performed, the usual straightforward bow is replaced with a bow to all four surrounding walls in the dojo..... On a side note.....It was comented that Shotokan and Goju Ryu are very much alike.....not so.....not even close.....Goju by definition means hard/soft.....not all hard or all soft, but hard and soft at the same time.......Shotokan is a very hard system, prefering to, for example, bang away incoming techniques with hard blocks, rather that blend with the incoming techniques, trap it, and subsequently be able to stick to it and control it

Yeah.....Ill hafta second the motion.....Professor Wally Jay's book on small circle Jujitsu is fantastic, and if you ever have a chance to go to one of his seminars....do so....he is amazing.....Ive trained with him almost every year when hes in my area for the last 10-12 years.....he is really incredible, and his system is amazingly effective

Stances......Ill try not to lose this post....lol Systems teach a variety of stances..... Its not that one is good and one is bad, it depends on what you need to accomplish..... For example...... Sheiko Dachi (sumo stance) is a very solid, stable stance.....thats the upside.....the downside is....it doesnt offer very much in terms of quick mobility. Nekoashi Dachi (cat stance) on the other hand (which btw is a typical Okinawan fighting stance), offers you the ability to move very quickly in any direction....the downside to it is that it isnt a very stable, well grounded stance. You asked how our stances compare/contrast to each other.....honestly.....I dont know.....I see your bio states that you train in MMA.....I can only assume that you (hopefully) have been exposed to several types of fighting styles, which would mean that youve seen a variety of stances..... The only way to actually see how what we practice compares/contrasts is to get together and train with each other, and kinda "compare notes"..... I have been very fortunate over the last 31 years of training....especially when I owned my dojo. I have made it a point to invite as many different teachers of as many different styles to conduct seminars, as I have done for them at their dojos, so that I/we can be exposed to as many different things as possible. When training in a dojo, and working on fighting techniques based on your particualr system, you generally are somewhat limited in a sense that during sparring, you fight mostly the same fellow students, who are learning the same system that you are.....now, while this is good, and you certainly are learning.....you training can be made better..... On the street, youre not always gonna come up against a guy who is practicing the same style you are. By getting exposure to other systems, you can become somewhat familiar with what to expect from an opponent outside of your system. And that can be a real help in the "real world".....remember.....dojo sparring, while it may be hard fighting, is still being done in a controlled environment, which certainly gives a form of comfort level not found on the street when encountering a stranger......and in the real world, "question marks" cause problems..... Quick bar/bouncer story..... Escorting a drunk pain in the a$$ out of the bar one night.....his friends were helpfull, cause he was way outta line, and like I said....drunk and stupid....lol....anyway.... He was good about getting outside the bar.....but when we got to the sidewalk....thats when his mouth went into overdrive..... He started blah blah blah about how he was a 3rd dan in TKD, and he was about to kick everyones a$$......blah blah blah.....At this point, one of our "regulars" stumbled out of the bar to watch the "excitement"......He overhears this guy going off about his being a 3rd degree, and being drunk.....he starts blabbling about how "The Sandman is a master dude....hes a 4th degree and hes gonna kick your a$$ !!!!".....very helpfull.....anyway.....seeing the big "Sandman" logo on the back of my shirt, he starts coming at me screaming about how he represents such and such TKD dojo, and that he's gonna take me apart....blah blah blah......if I had a nickle for every time I heard that......now.....hearing himtell me about his TKD background, and havin seen many TKD guys, as well as trained with lots of them......I know that theres about an 80% chance that this guy is gonna try to kick me.....probably to the head, or at least some kinda fancy somethin' or other..... Naturally.....he does a double jump kick.....he was drunk, so it was sloppy.....I blocked the kicks with open palm, snapped a frontleg front kick to his stomach, and slammed him with a really hard roundhouse to the ribcage......that kinda ended things, and as he was gettin back up, the cops rolled up, so his friends helped himacross the street to go home......he stayed there for a while making faces and taunting us....at one point, doing some fancy jumping spinning something or other kick, from which he fell flat on his a$$, which caused the whole group of people on the sidewalk to laugh hysterically...... learn as much as you can about as much as you can.....itll come in handy.....I promise.... As far as my own use of stances.....I simply stand in such a way as to make myself comfortable, ready to move into whatever the situation calls for.....do I need to be solidly grounded ?.....do I wanna be able to move quickly ?......I let the situation dictate what and where I gonna be doing whatever Im gonna be doing...... Thats footwork......as far as hand positions..... Theres closed hands, open hands, and if youre workin with open hands.....palms up, palms down, palms facing the opponent, edge of hand facing the opponent......that depends on what techniques they chose to come at you with, and how you want to deal with it.....do you wanna deflect and redirect ?.....do you wanna catch it and go for locks ?.......there are just so many variables...... we all have friends that dont train.....how many times do they come up to you and fool around saying things like..."what would you do if I grabbed you like this.....or came at you this way......" There are just so many different responses that weve learned for any given attack.....just go with the flo.....use what works best for you at the given moment.....never limit yourself......

Those are two very good posts..... Bruce Lee's words and concepts have been interpreted and misinterpreted over the years to no end..... As Delta 1 said.....Bruce Lee never said that forms are worthless.....his main point was that practicing a form without knowing the applications and how to apply them effectively was a waste of time because you would essentially just be "going through the motions".....You must put your heart and soul into every technique that you perform, and since it is a form of art, which makes it open to individual interpretation, his point was that you learn to express yourself as an individual.....thats not to say that you can have the standpoint that whatever you do is fine because you are expressing yourself in your own way.....but that modifying a bonafide technique to better suit your personality so to speak is not only acceptable, he encouraged it. JKD itself was in a constant state of flux as it was being created, simply because Bruce Lee's own personal philosophies were as well.

NEVER ignore "correct technique".....never....... Practice the form slowly.......countless times.....WITH CORRECT TECHNIQUE As your mind and body work as one to perform and understand the form, your body will naturally begin to "speed up" the techniques until the form is being performed at the proper speed with the correct techniques. NEVER EVER EVER SACRIFICE TECHNIQUE FOR SPEED.

Fake Chinese dubbed voice...... "Ahhhhhh........you must be Master Ping from the northern province......your crane style is the finest I have ever seen.....but it is no match for my Flying Lizard !.......You want to fight ?.....Fight me !....." "Flying Lizard ?......You must be Master Tang......you killed my brother.....prepare to die !!! LOL

HEY !!!! Dont start dissing cheap movies.......they teach you how to make great sound effects !

Just wrote a huge post.....had a great story in it and everything.....took me so long that when I went to post it......I lost it......argggggggg!!!!! No worries......lemme have dinner and Ill get back to it later.....promise...lol

Sounds like a very "entertaining" fellow......isnt it a pleasure to meet those "know it all" kinda guys.......

Let him have any opinions he wants to.....heres the key question.....Are you happy with what you do ?....if so....thats all that matters....you train for you....no one else......in time, provided that his teachers are worth their salt so to speak....hell get more of an education aside from punches and kicks....he'll hopefully learn that his current attitude and behavior is out of line, and maybe he'll change....maybe he'll even offer you the apology that he should....then again....maybe not.....either way......let all of his babbling pass in one ear and out the other.....preserve your friendships at all costs, and just keep doing your thing at your dojo......when he goes off on his rants....ask him if you can come and see the differences that he so loudly boasts about.....not in a challenging or confrontational way......but in a way that shows a healthy curiousity for the possibility of learning something new......just go with the flow.....let him rant and rave about whatever.......so its annoying....whatever.....thats not the end of the world........

Thank you for your kind words Str33t Guy...... Fighting styles are really based on ones personality, and moods at the time.......Ive also noticed that mine has changed a lot over the years as Ive gotten older and more "level headed"...lol.... I also feel that "one style is not better than the other".....its all in the hands of the practicioner..... This really is an art form, no matter what style you train in....and being an art form, it is quite often affected and influenced by the individual practicioners interpretation and expression of the form...... The key is.....no matter what you train in.....always put your full efforts and all your heart into it. Thanks again.