goshinman

I don't agree with anything you said. To say that judo clubs spend most of their time donig stand up is about as broad a generalization as can be. I don't know if you have really trained with real judoka or not but I can tell by you making those kinds of statements that you most likely haven't. And what fight were you watching were you saw Royce DOMINATING Yoshida on the ground? I must have missed that one. Like I said before a GOOD judo club(meaning one that dosen't focus on sport judo as much) will have you just as proficient in the ground game as any bjj school period.

A good Judo school will have you just as proficient in grappling as any bjj school will. that is a known fact.

Kimura is frikin' awesome. Go JUDO!!!

One day when we were all debating about bjj vs (add your own art/style) A guy claimed that the spider guard was invented by bjj masters and was completly new and unique to bjj. Well as a wise old king once said "there ain't nothing new under the sun". Read this article I read on jiu-jitsu.net. Read the history. Almost everything done in the art of Judo comes from one or more Jiu-jitsu styles which came before. The cliff's notes version: Jigoro Kano developed Judo out of a few Jiu-jitsu styles, like Tenshin Ryu, Fusen Ryu (where we get the groundwork), and Kito Ryu (just to name a few). Judo is a more "sportive" style that combines what Kano felt were the best elements from each of these styles. Please read the history for a complete picture instead of emailing me questions. Nothing New I always hear a lot about "New Moves" from Brazil or the latest techniques … Is this a reality? Yes and No. Yes, because as any art evolves, new variations and set ups are 'discovered'. No, because every single time I hear about a new move or counter, it isn't long before I see it in an old Judo book, or as I did recently, in The Kosen Judo tapes. Before I start talking about these tapes, I really want everyone to understand that I had a Black Belt in a traditional style of Jiu-jitsu and took it off to study Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (in which I am currently a Brown Belt). I felt that the 'old' style I was practicing was lacking certain dimensions and the evolution that the Brazilian style had (like comparing a Model T to a Mustang). We did all the same moves like the Triangle (sankau-jime), Armbar (juji-gatame), chokes, pins, throws, etc … But because of Kano's heavy influence and focus on stand up training instead of ground work (remember that very few styles of Jiu-jitsu put such a heavy emphasis on Newaza (groundwork) as BJJ or Fusen Ryu did), the emphasis was on setting up throws and taking people down. Its just the emphasis and I felt that since we were all trying to get each other to the ground anyway, what happened there (once on the ground) was more important, so I switched to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu; this was just a personal preference. Now you have to look at this from both sides: since the emphasis in BJJ is groundwork, and in Judo, the throw, I would bet my last dollar that a BJJ Black Belt vs. Judo Black belt match will begin with the Judo player getting the takedown. But it will end with the BJJ Black Belt getting the submission (that is, of course if there is no time limit). So it is simple a matter of prioritizing, not that the techniques aren't a part of each art. A Judo player has more set ups standing, a BJJ player has more on the ground. The BJJ guy knows a load of takedowns and throws by Black Belt, but doesn't know how to set them up as well and vice versa. It is the set up that really makes techniques happen at a high level. I have seen all kinds of people do moves, like Frank Mir and his modified Americana from the guard. I've been doing this for years and learned it in a 'classical' Jiu-jitsu class, not BJJ. But because not many people saw it (or the first time they had seen it was in the UFC), it became the "Frank Mir Armlock" on the Internet the next day. This happens to me all the time. Guys come into my academy all the time with "new moves" that I learned 10 years ago. The triangle choke was introduced to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu from an old Judo book (read the history on this site, please). All of this is quite evident once you read Best Judo by Isao Inokkuma and Nobuyuki Sato, which was written in 1979 (this book covers everything considered by most as uniquely Brazilian, like the Omoplata). Like many others, I thought that in addition to the set-ups, BJJ did have a few things that were truly "new". I thought this right up until I saw the Kosen Judo tapes. I watched as everything I thought had been invented by some Brazilian champion was demonstrated on this old tape from before their time. It started with something as simple as a half guard pass that I learned only a few years ago from a Brazilian friend and purple belt who had just been shown 'the latest moves'. I would then respond with, "Well, DeLaRiva guard is pretty unique to BJJ!". Nope. Low and behold, there are two old-as-hell Japanese guys doing sweeps from what I had always known as DeLaRiva Guard. I'm not kidding. Then, I thought, "Spider Guard, there's now wa …." WRONG. These old bastards were right there on my TV doing the sweep from spider guard where you set up the bicep lock with one leg, your shin across his belly, roll the opponent over and get the bicep lock (chave de biceps) from the top. Unreal. They were doing it with all the sophistication and grace of a 25-year-old Mundial Champion (remember, these guys look ancient, so all that crap about Judo guys using too much strength goes right out the window). Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't start dusting off my Japanese Jiu-jitsu black belt or anything. I still wasn't seeing the kind of set ups that you see on Mario Sperry's Master Series or a Michael Jen seminar. The sequencing was simply not there. HOWEVER, there were some pretty killer set ups and entries that had me leaning close to the TV like Rainman watching Judge Wappner. I think it will be hard for the average beginner to catch these fine details, especially because the whole thing is in Japanese, but believe me, there are loads of little details, tricks, and secrets here that had me nodding with approval and grinning the entire time, the rest of the time, I was taking notes. The tapes are available on the web from a few sources, like the one I listed above, but are not available (to my knowledge) in an English translation. They are divided in four categories, but since the language is not my own and such a wide variety of moves are covered, I'm not exactly sure about the specific organization. Because I know most of the moves in Japanese, it wasn't entirely confusing to me, but I think the average viewer will have to keep his eyes peeled and finger on the pause & rewind buttons. In conclusion, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is a great art and one of the only styles (of Jiu-jitsu) to keep the real (or Jiu-jitsu at its 'golden age' of development) Jiu-jitsu alive. The marketing strategy of the Gracie family is brilliant and we all owe a world of gratitude to them for preserving (and of course, adding to) such a great art (the way it should be practiced), but not for inventing it. Ok let the flaming and style bashing begin....AGAIN

I would really like to get some info on these techniques so if you could please give me a source so that I can check them out. Thanks again in advance.

There is another style of Judo called Taiki ryu judo that has alot of the banned techniques as well. But it doesn't have all 67 throws reconized by the kodokan. Can you give me more info on the list you have of the banned techniques? Thanks in advance.

Helio Gracie reveals the true story behind his epic battle with Masahiko Kimura Helio Gracie Interviewed by Nishi Yoshinori From Kakuto Striking Spirit May 1, 2002 Translated by Yoko Kondo This interview was conducted in 1994 just after the UFC 3, but was published for the first time on May 1, 2002 in Japan. Nishi Yoshinori participated in a seminar held one day before the Ultimate in Charlotte. What drew attention there was Helio Gracie who was teaching Nishi with care. On September 15, four days later, Nishi visited the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy owned by Rorion in Los Angeles. Helio, who postponed his return to Brazil in expectation of his visit, was waiting for him there. Nishi took a private lesson on the advice of Rorion. When the one-hour training was finished, Helio came to Nishi saying "there is something I want to show you." What was put in front of Nishi were rare pictures of his legendary fight with Masahiko Kimura, the master. For more information on Masahiko Kimura please see this excerpt from his autobiography "My Judo" or see the videos of the match with Helio Gracie. Nishi: What valuable pictures they are! I don't think even the wife of Kimura has pictures like these. Well, what kind of rule was this fight done under? Was it the vale tudo rule? Helio: No, it was the jiu-jitsu rule. Nishi: Then, you didn't exchange blows with Kimura, did you? Helio: That's right. We could do anything except kicks and punches. There were no points and no time limits. But when I challenged Kimura and we met together for the first time, he seemed to be very surprised when he saw how small I was (laugh). So I was told to fight with a man named Kato at first. Nishi: Then, did you fight with a Japanese Judo-ka before the fight with Kimura? Helio: Yes, I did. He had 20 kg. heavier than me and was strongly built. But I was able to win by good luck. Rorion: My father finished Kato with a choke in less than six minutes (see a photo from the match). So Kimura accepted my father's challenge. But the people around strongly objected to it. It seemed that especially uncle Carlos didn't want him to do it. Nishi: Did the people around think that Kimura was more than a match for you from the beginning? Helio: Not only the people around, but also I myself thought that nobody in the world could defeat Kimura. (laugh) Especially my brother Carlos was worried that I would never give up under any condition. He thought I would get seriously injured. So he gave me permission to fight with Kimura on the condition that I would "give-up" without fail. Regret? I didn't regret it at all either before or after the fight. For me who aimed at jiu-jitsu at that time, fear was surpassed by desire to know what on earth such a strong man like Kimura would do in the fight--he might open the door to an unknown world for me. I heard that you are the same type of person too. Nishi: Yes, I am. Helio seemed to know that Nishi had fought with Rickson [Mr. Nishi faced Rickson in Vale Tudo Japan Open 95 and was defeated by rear naked hadaka jime choke in the first round], and he has been fighting in kickboxing and karate events as well. It could be felt here and there in Helio's words that Helio was sympathizing with Nishi's action. Nishi: I would like to ask you something technical before the story about Kimura. What kind of style of jiu-jitsu was it you learned? Helio: I remember vaguely that my brother Carlos was learning it from Konde Koma (Kosei Maeda) around 1914. Anyway I was just four years old at that time. To tell the truth, I don't remember well the technique directly taught by Koma. Carlos opened the dojo in Rio when he was 25 years old, and I was watching the techniques that he had learned from Konde Koma. But I kept thinking about what a small and weak man like me should do to win, and developing the theory to control an opponent by technique. Rorion: It seems my father didn't teach it to anybody in the beginning. But one day he had to teach the training in place of uncle Carlos who was late for the class. My father was only 16 years old yet, but the improvements my father made in the techniques to control an opponent with a minimum power was persuasive enough to satisfy the students. Since it doesn't require power, it makes it possible for you to fight for 20 or 30 minutes. After that, it seems that uncle Carlos left the teaching to my father. Nishi: That has become the base of Gracie jiu-jitsu of the day, hasn't it? Was a style Mr. Carlos learned from Kosei Maeda centering on "kata"? Helio: There weren't so many techniques. Most techniques were something mainly based on power. But Konde Koma was always fighting in real fights, so a lot of tricks to win in a real fight were incorporated in his teaching. Nishi: Striking was also included, wasn't it? Helio: No, it wasn't included. Kosei Maeda known by the name of Konde Koma was a judo-ka who got out of Japan to spread Kodokan Judo to the world in Meiji period, and performed an open fight with a different style in each country. (However, Kodokan removed his name from the register in the later years.) But why did he call it jiu-jitsu, not judo in Brazil? Nishi has secretly thought that jiu-jitsu introduced to Brazil might be something like a variant form of judo. Nishi: Did Mr. Maeda call it jiu-jitsu, not judo from the beginning? Helio: I heard that Konde Koma called it jiu-jitsu. We didn't even know the word of judo itself until it came into Brazil. At that time (the time when jiu-jitsu was brought by Konde Koma), there were many Japanese immigrants and local people had a friendly relationship with them. I heard that they often helped Japanese people in many ways. So I think he taught us their traditional jiu-jitsu in return for it. Nishi: When judo came into Brazil, didn't you think it was similar to jiu-jitsu? Rorion: I have a strong impression about judo that judo is a sport where the objective is to throw the opponent to the ground using power. But I think maybe the original art is jiu-jitsu. When Japan lost in the World War II and America was occupying Japan, they taught the Americans judo, but not jiu-jitsu. In that sense, we were lucky to have been able to come in contact directly with jiu-jitsu first, rather than judo. Helio: (nodding to what Rorion said) They didn't teach the Americans the mind of the samurai. Nishi: It doesn't seem that judo itself was completely introduced to you. I wonder if Kosei Maeda introduced something he made up and called jiu-jitsu, or if it had originality as a result of the improvements made by Mr. Helio. It draws my interest very much. Then, when is the start of vale tudo? Helio: It was not something like vale tudo, but the first fight between different styles was in 1932 when I fought with an American wrestling fighter named Fred Ebert when I had 17 years old. He described himself as a world-class strong fighter. It seems that Fred Ebert was a fighter who took second place in the 95kg class in the world wrestling championship held in New York in l928. This coincides with the story of Helio who described him as a giant with 98kg, but it turns out to have been nearly 40kg difference in weight between them. Helio's weight was about 60kg. Nishi: How about the result? Helio: (with a frown) The fight started at 12:00 at midnight, and fought until 2:00 in the morning. But we were told to stop the fight by the police. Rorion: The fight lasted 2 hours and 10 minutes. To tell the truth, he was stopped to fight by the doctor then due to the high fever caused by a swelling. Anyway he had to undergo an urgent operation next day of the fight. Nishi: It sounds...... (breaking off in his speech) .....reckless....... Helio: I didn't want to be said that I avoided the fight under the pretext of the doctor-stop. That's all. However, I regret that we couldn't get the result. Nishi: What if Mr. Ebert is in good health and challenged you to do the sequel to the fight now? Helio: I will do it, of course! (laugh) But he might need some handicap because he was pretty older than me. For Helio, who has such a "never say die" attitude toward a fight as mentioned above, I wonder what came to his mind when he threw in the towel in the fight of Royce [vs. Sakuraba in Pride Grand Prix 2000], his son, with his own hand. I wanted to ask him about it. But maybe there was something wrong in the way I started to question saying "I am sorry for the result of Royce, but....", they stuck to the answer made by Rorion, who was voluntarily working as an interpreter, that "No matter how nice a car you drive, it sometimes happens to you to get out of the course due to a puncture. Neither Shamrock nor Royce lost to anybody this time." (Helio speaks only Portuguese, so the interview was done in such a way that at first Nishi's words were conveyed to Rorion in English, and then Rorion conveyed it to Helio in Portuguese) However, I felt like that I saw Helio's deep attachment to fights in difference in words between Helio, who used simple and clear words, and Rorion, who used a metaphor. Nishi: Mr. Helio, did you have a favorite technique other than jiu-jitsu? Helio: Does it mean a technique in striking? I was good at side kicks. I did it in my own way, but kick the body of the opponent using the heel. Don't ask me to demonstrate it here now! (laugh) Nishi: No! (laugh) You said it was your own way, but did you study it watching the move of karate? Helio: Karate? No. Judo came to Brazil around 1950-1960 and Karate was later than that, maybe around 1970. So I had no chance to study it. Besides when I saw karate for the first time, I didn't think it was effective for self-defense or kakuto art. Nishi: Well then, do you think kakutogi based on striking are not effective for all? Helio: Generally they are not, are they? I think you know about it much better than I do. Rorion: In a fight like the Ultimate, all you have to do about striking is to kill the distance. If you do it, then you can control the fight. Nishi: They are at a disadvantage under the rule of the Ultimate for sure, but I can't agree with you who say positively that they are not effective from the view point of self-defense and kakuto arts either. Then, when did you start fighting with striking? Helio: I don't remember clearly, but jiu-jitsu was considered something oriental in Brazil and there was some guy saying that he could defeat me in a street fight. So I accepted the fight with him including punches and kicks. Nishi: Unbelievable! (laugh) He must have sorely regretted his words after the contest.! Was that the beginning of vale tudo? Helio: Maybe so. I'm the one who started vale tudo. But we didn't call it vale tudo. It was a TV producer who decided to call it that. Nishi: A TV producer? Helio: That's right. I held style vs. style tournaments to spread jiu-jitsu. Of course, I won all of them. The producer found them interesting and decided to telecast them. The title of that program was Vale Tudo. Later the form was changed to one-match fight between a winner of the jiu-jitsu tournament (it was held under the original jiu-jitsu rule and striking was prohibited) and a challenger invited from a different style. This program started around 1960 and became very popular. It used to be aired every week at one time. Nishi: It is a model of the Ultimate. Anyway, I'm surprised to see that it was the title of the TV program, and vale tudo was performed every week. What an amazing country Brazil is. Helio: Many people were scared of punches. But since they watched the fights on TV, they started to understand that punches were good, but they could be nullified by using different techniques, and a small man like me could fight. Nishi: I was doing judo and was afraid of getting punched. That's why I started learning striking and still now I am studying. Mr. Helio, did you have any fear of getting punched? Helio: If I get punched, I feel happy and more guts. But I feel pain too. (laugh) So I developed the way of fighting to avoid to get punched. Nishi: And at first you keep the position not to get punched, then give the opponent punches whenever you want to. Helio: That's right (laugh). Nishi: How about a throw? Throwing is not effective either? Helio: No, it can be very effective at times. Anyway, a fearful throw by Kimura remains vividly in mind. It was very impressive to see that Kimura made the opponent KOed with one throw. When it was decided that I would fight with Kimura, I was careful about his throw. Nishi: Could you tell me more details about the fight with the master Kimura? Helio: Sure! Helio: In the beginning I carefully tried to find a breakthrough, but I was in his control as soon as we stood close to each other. I had no time to even hold or grapple him. What I barely could do was to avoid his perfect throw in such a way that I relaxed the strength of all my body and moved my position a little bit at the moment when Kimura tried to throw me and as a result Kimura lost his balance. I was taken into the ground, and I got choked at first. It was difficult to breathe. I felt it working enough so I was wondering if I should tap as I promised Carlos. Nishi: ? Helio: Well, this is what I've never told anybody before. It seems I went unconscious while I was thinking about what to do [give up or not]. Naturally all the staff let alone Nishi were surprised to hear that, but what was more impressive than that was the shocked expression on Rorion's face. Helio: If Kimura had continued to choke me, I would have died for sure. But since I didn't give up, Kimura let go of the choke and went into the next technique. Being released from the choke and the pain from the next technique revived me and I continued to fight. Kimura went to his grave without ever knowing the fact that I was finished. If possible, I wish I could have talked about the fight with him and let him know about it. Nishi: I will tell his wife without fail. Helio: Thank you. But then, Kimura was strong....... strong and a gentleman. He spoke in my ear in Japanese "good, good" while catching me with arm-lock. I don't understand Japanese at all, but strangely I was encouraged by his voice. It gave me power. (laugh) I was anxious about it, so I asked him later. He said, "I was admiring your heart." Nishi: Kimura also talked about the fight with Mr. Helio in his book, and says that you had a strong heart. Helio: Same to him. I think I got the authentic samurai spirit from him. I might have been Japanese in a previous life. Nishi: By the way, what shall I do with my plan? I was prepared to do a challenge match here aiming at defeating a Gracie, but I touched the heart of the master Kimura in the talk with Mr. Helio. Now I've had one more teacher, Mr. Helio. Indeed, I must have been Brazilian in a previous life. Helio: Thank you. If you continue to train, you will be the champion in a jiu-jitsu tournament in Brazil for sure. Age? No problem. I am 82 years old now, but martial arts are what you search for at the risk of your whole life. I have no enemy; I make carelessness my enemy Return to the Judo Information Site This page is copyright © 2003 by Neil Ohlenkamp, JudoInfo.com and Encino Judo Club, USA. All rights reserved. Last updated January 12, 2003.

I was doing some research on the history of Japanese jujitsu and Judo and came up with some interestinig facts on the evoulution of judo ne waza. Remember that famous match between the old jujitsu masters and Kano's judo students? Well actually there were several matches in the old days. One extremely important one occured about 1905 between the Kodokan and the Fusen ryu school of jujitsu. The Fusen ryu was not a nihon school, rather it was created about the same time as Judo. They were the first club to beat the Kodokan since the tournament against the Tokyo police Jiu Jitsuka in the famous tournament that made Judo's reputation. The Kodokan was beaten badly, losing all but one match. Why? The Fusen ryu were the first style of Jiu Jitsu to emphasis a style of ground fighting that looked very similar to wrestling in many respects. They were the pioneers of newaza. Before that time, the Kodokan, like the koryu schools, applied most katame waza (grappling techniques) standing or as a direct followup to a throw. This type of grappling, along with nage waza (throwing), atemi waza, and weapons defense and techniques (Kano was a certified master of, I believe, 12 traditional battlefield weapons, and Jo Jitsu (art of the staff) was taught at the Kodokan until the 1920s) made up the primary syllabus of the original Kodokan. Grappling around on the mat, transitioning between position, fighting for subs, etc. had no place in the old Jiu Jitsu because it was a battlefield art, meant to be a form of empty-handed fighting for when the warrior lost his weapon (usually the katana). But Kano was open-minded and always looking to improve, so after seeing his Kodokan beaten by this newaza, he did the only logical thing: he asked the Fusen ryu masters to train himself and his top men in newaza. The Fusen ryu consented, and newaza became a major part of Judo. Now, the actual katame waza techniques where largely the same ones the Kodokan had always used. Their application to what we today would think of as a "ground fight" were the innovation. Judo also included spine locks, leg locks, neck cranks, and throws that are preformed in conjunction with arm locks. All of which have been banned in sport Judo. Some judo clubs still teach hese techniques but not very many. Another interesting tidbit was an old video (1930 I belive) on judo that featured old masters showing several guard positions, one of which looks eerily similar to the BJJ spider guard. This was information that for various reasons was all but lost and only a handful of student had access to advanced ne waza. Can you guess who one of them was? Maeda.

I really wanted to but that wouldn't have been wise considering the setting. I basically just toyed with him to show him that I could have taken him out any time I wanted to. For example, when he tried his clumsy attempt at a double leg takedown I could have easily choked him out from that position. I could have armbarred him, I could have Kimura locked him, or I could have grounded and pounded him. But I choose the right technique I think. Can't argue with the results

You know I never really thought about if they should drug test him because he was terminated. I took some thime to read over the company handbook and yes drug testing is part of the policy if you are in an accident or ANY type of physical altercation rather it's your fault or not. Our union is still pretty new (6 months) so we don't have much pull yet, but we are getting there.

I just got a lesson on stupidity. I borrowed 5 bucks from one of my co-workers about two weeks ago. When I borrowed the money he asked me when I was going to give it back to him. I told him ASAP and his exact words to me were "I know that your in a tight financial bind right now so don't worry about it, just give it to me when you can". Needless to say I was very appreciative of that. So anywayz about two weeks go by and he comes up to me yesterday and his attitude is the total opposite of what it was when he gave me the cash. "Man you've been dodging me for 2 weeks (not true) and I want my "GD" money!" I was taken by suprise at his attitude but I calmly reminded him that it was not yet payday and that as soon as I get paid I will give you you 5 bucks. He wouldn't have that and he starts getting louder and making a scene. I told him "look man I don't know if your having a bad day or what but you need to really chill out. And besides, if I recall correctly you told me not to worry about it and to pay you when I can". He yells "but I didn't mean take 10 damn years to pay me!" By this time I am starting to get mad so I get up and walk away to go outside. He says "oh so your just going to walk away from me like I'm some kind of female or something" and follows me. I tell him not to follow me and this makes him even more ticked off and he grabs at me. I slap his hand away from me and say man what the hell is your problem!? Then this idiot does the unthinkable and slugs me in full view of about 20 people. I turn my head to avoid the full force of the punch and then he try's to tackle me to the ground. I sprawl and then I stand back up. He comes at me again swingging away, I slip his punches, clinch with him, and then I reap him to the ground. I then get his back and I was going to choke him out, but better judgement prevailed and I just front face locked him instead. He was really mad and began sqwirmming and trying to get out. I told him to chill out or I'll apply more pressure, he didn't so I cranked it tighter until he was in complete agony. Keep in mind that this entire sequence of events lasted no longer then 5 minutes, and the fight itself lasted about 30 seconds at the most (though it semed like an eternity). So anyway the supervisors finally grow a pair and break us up. I was relatively cool and collected so they didn't have to hold me but he was furious and still trying to come after me so they restrained him. I grabbed my stuff, told them to call me later if they need me and I left. The only reason I did this was because he wasn't trying to stop getting to me and I just wanted to alieviate the situation as much as possible, so I left. So anyway today I get to work and go into the office to sign on for my shift and they tell me to go and see the human resources manager. I don't trip because I know what it's about and I walk to his office. Of course he asked for my version of the events and I told him exactly what happened. He then told me that I was going to be suspended immeadiately for 3 days pending the results of a drug test. He said that it was likely that the other guy would be fired because my co-workers confirmed my side of the story. He also told me that if I had thrown a punch that I would have likely been fired as well (which sucks because I didn't start it and in fact tried to avoid the fight all together). So here I am, suspended for three days without pay. All this for 5 dollars. The moral of the story, DON'T BORROW MONEY!!

Have you ever seen a Thai boxer or a Kyokushinkai expert throw low kicks? If you have then you should know that Watching out for low kicks from people who are trained in how to properly do them is next to impossible. And after you feel one actually connect TRUST ME when I tell you that you won't want to feel another one. On the other hand a thai boxer would be weary of kicking a good judoka for obvious reasons.

Which is why I respect BJJ as a martial art. Very few traditional martial arts are performance based. I can name maybe six. Kyokushinkai, muay Thai, BJJ, judo, Shaio Chuai kung fu, and Bujiquan kung fu. There may be more but those are the only one's that I know of that can be verified as being combat effective. And I am using the term traditional in the sense that they all have traditional/formal practices. Now having said that, I myself am a Japanese Jujutsuka and can roll pretty darn good with anyone. But only because I go full out on every chance I get so that my submission set-up's and combat reflex are up to par. Those are things that can only be achieved by grappling with resisting opponents.

Remember that the technique's power comes from thrusting your hips upward. Well actually I shouldn't say thrusting because in a friendly match you want to control the force in your technique as much as possible so as to not seriously hurt the guy.

No way Rickson takes out Kimura. Unless he studied Judo in depth.

Right on point as usual sevenstar. And as for what is traditional and non traditional, the guy's who use that term when discussing TMA are usually using it to say what isn't effective. Which is why in their minds Karate for example is a TMA while Muay thai is not. Not saying they are right, but this is usually what they mean.

I have come up with my dream list of matches that I love to see in a fantasy world. Here they are. 10) Royce Gracie vs Ken Shamrock (in their primes) 9)Sakaraba vs Frank Shamrock 8)BJ Penn vs Karo Parisyan 7)Murillo Bustamonte vs Royce Gracie 6)Kevin Jackson vs Tito Ortiz 5)"Judo"Gene LeBell vs Helio Gracie (While both were in their primes) 4)Gokor Chivakiyan vs Rickson Gracie 3)Matt Furey vs Tony Cecchine ( one of these guys is full of it, so what better way to find out who?) 2)Frank Shamrock vs Randy "The natural" Couture 1) Rickson Gracie vs Kimura (with Kimura in his prime) Who do you guy's think will win the matches and why?

^^^ I agree with everything you said. I study TJJ and I had to go and grapple with guys from other styles(bjj, ect.) to get my game up to par with those who were doing it for real, and let me tell you I got my butt handed to me alot before I got to a skill level where I could beat people. TJJ does focus on trying to do throws, locks, groundwork, striking, and weapons. BJJ students focus on ground work so they will always have the edge. Only a very special person can master submissions, throwing, and striking and be great at them. Kimura is the ONLY person I can think of who mastered groundwork AND throws equally. As far as standing locks/submissons, they work, but the WOO (window of opprotunity) is too smalll to make them a reliable tactic all the time which is why most mma don't really bother with them. The shootfighters seem to be able to make them work, but standing submissions are rare indeed.

Ok let me bring this topic back into focus. What I'm saying is that from a technical standpoint judo will be much harder to implement into your MMA game -even more so without the gi- then just about any other MA out there. Let's take BJJ for example. A person can train in Bjj for 6 months and get a good foundation of the basic techniques. Most MMA have a good working knowledge of BJJ but very few have advanced knowledge of the art. It's just like Royler said in his interview with Blackbelt magazine, "most guy's have a basic understanding of the art and just go with that" (I'm paraphrasing). Muay Thai is the same way. But Gi-less judo is another beast altogether. In my honest opinion I belive that Judo without the gi will take to long to gain proficient results within a resonable timeframe for MMA competitions, i.e PRIDE, UFC, etc. Karo said it took him quite some time to gain that kind of technique and he's been training in Judo since he was 9 years old. And please lets not have this topic degenerate into a style vs style thing. That is getting quite tedious on this forum.

I haven't had a chance to study shuai chiao formally yet. I have David CK. Lin's video tape series and that is how I get training for now. I love it though. If I could get into a school in my area I would quit jujitsu to study it.

I know that. I study Hakko ryu Jujitsu. Most Aiki-jujutsu styles teach the throws without the Gi, but still rely on the persons clothing to substitute the gi. There are of course some "naked" applications such as the shoulder throw and the head lock throw. Just about all the reaps will work as well. If you saw UFC 44 Randy couture used lots of reaps on Tito Ortiz which was cool. But the kind of throws Karo was doing take a lot of time to master and execute as flawlessly as he did.

Well after Karo Parisyans' easy win over Dave Strasser it seems that there has been a rush by folks in the mma community to learn judo or at least there has been a rising curiousity about it. The throws and takedowns that Karo used were great and he made them LOOK easy, but as these people are going to find out they are not easy at all. Especially without the gi. It takes years to be able to do judo as effectively as Karo did in his UFC match and there aren't that many shortcut's to gain the technical knowhow to ad them to your MMA game. What are your thoughts on this topic?

What was the ORIGINAL topic again

aikidos hiji jime (standing kimura)