goshinman

True, true. It's a problem that I see that has become increasingly common especially amongst the MMA/NHB crowd. Not to long ago a guy was on here bragging about how he whooped a TJJ brown belt and a black belt after he had only had 5 lessons in BJJ . But it isn't just the BJJ people or the MMA people because I used to go to a dojo that constantly bashed other styles of Kung fu/karate, it was one of the more pathetic displays of Budo spirit that I have experienced in quite some time.

Ultimate Fight in Brazil 1951 In July 1951 Kimura and two other fellow Japanese Judoka were asked to compete in Brazil. Kimura at age 34 was accompanied by a 240 pound (110kg) college champion Yamaguchi (6th degree black belt at the time) and Kado (5th degree black belt). It was to be a Judo/Jiu-jitsu fight. Kado accepted a challenge from Helio Gracie -- Brazilian champion for 20 years. The loser was determined by tapping out due to a choke or armbar, or by being knocked out of commission. Ippon (clean powerful throws) or osaekomi (pinning) would have no effect on the results of competition. During Kado's fight he threw Gracie several times. Gracie, who was in excellent condition, demonstrated ukemi, braking the throws with little injury. After 10 minutes of frustration, Kado decided to apply a choke. However, the masterful Gracie applied his own choke rendering Kado unconscious. With Kado's passing-out, Gracie was declared the winner and became a national hero of Brazil! Weeks later, Gracie challenged the remaining two team members, either Yamaguchi or Kimura, to a match. Yamaguchi refused for fear of injury, however Kimura accepted the challenge. There were 20,000 spectators present. A coffin was brought in by Gracie's followers. Presumably, Kimura was to be killed by Gracie. On the day of the match, the President and Vice President of Brazil attended at ringside. During the fight, Kimura threw Gracie repeatedly with ippon-seoi-nage [one arm shoulder throw], osoto-gari [major outer reap], and harai-goshi [sweeping hip/loin]. He also included painful suffocating grappling techniques such as kuzure-kamishiho-gatame [modified upper four corner hold], kesa-gatame [scarf hold], sankaku-gatame [triangle hold]. Gracie proved to be a formidable opponent refusing to surrender after 12 minutes of grueling fight. Kimura then took Gracie down with an osoto-gari followed by kuzure-kamishiho-gatame. During the battle that followed, Gracie bridged out of the pin and right into Kimura's ude-garami (arm lock) [chicken-wing arm lock]. The arm bar must have been painful but when Gracie refused to surrender, Kimura applied yet more pressure, and as a result Gracie suffered a broken left elbow. Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his comer "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had the greater fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's tremendous will to win. Now of course the Gracies have their own version which makes Kimura out to be more brash and boastful in this story so i'm sure the truth falls somewhere in between. Awesome battle though! Here's more... Valetudo in Brazil 1959 Kimura went to Brazil in 1959 to have his last Professional Judo/Wrestling tour. He was challenged by Aldemar Santana. Santana was champion of Gracie Jiujitsu, Capoeira, and boxing. He was 27 years old, 6 feet and 205 lbs. In 1958, Santana knocked out Helio Gracie in a fight lasting 3 hours 45 minutes. Kimura threw Santana with Seoi-nage, Hanegosh, Osoto-gari; then, he applied Ude-garami, and won the match. Shortly after, Santana challenged Kimura to have a rematch for Vale-tudo. ( Everything goes, as it is equivalent to Ultimate Fighting Championship. ) On the day of the competition, there were 10,000 spectators present. From the beginning, Kimura realized that Santana punched and kicked much better. The only chance was newaza. Kimura made a mistake, and tried to throw Seoinage. Since both of them were soaked in sweat, without Judo-gis, Kimura fell to the mat. Santana followed with a straight punch and head-butt to Kimura’s stomach, not once or twice, but three times. Kimura was stunned; however, he maintained his nerve and waited for his chance to counter. When Santana tried to head-butt for the fourth time, Kimura punched Santana’s forehead-between the eyes-with all his strength. Santana,his face covered in blood, retreated. Kimura got up from the mat and chased Santana. The fight lasted for 40 minutes with a draw, as both of them were exhausted, unable to do complete damage. Kimura was 42 years old at the time. Damm I hope to be that good even in my 40's. I guess it's true that in a grappling art you can preserve yourself for a long period of time without all the athritic pain of a striking art.

I know they are out there but my particular TJJ school does not go full contact so I had to get my hard workouts at another gym. I will be trying to get some guy's from my dojo to go hard with me when we can afford adequate protection. I think that another huge problem we face in TJJ is a serious lack of conditioning. It has been said so much that you can do TJJ and defend yourself against bigger stronger opponents without being in great shape that most jujitsuka I know don't even bother working out regularly.-

There's only one way to find out...

I agree completely. I also will say that BJJ is alot more consistent in the type of training they do as far as going hard and not just handing out a black belt to anyone until they have reached a certain level of technical know how and such. Traditional arts USED to be that way until they came to America.

Hey JohnnyS. I was just curious to know if you had any previous martial arts training when you went to this TJJ dojo and whooped their blackbelts? I see you have a black belt in shootfighting and TKD so did you have those when you went to spar? For the most part I agree with your assessment of the difference in the execution of the same techniques in BJJ and TJJ but they are the same none the less. I have beaten a BJJ student before so does that mean My JJ style is better? I don't know, but I do know that I beat him that day because he was knocked out and had a concussion and a strained neck. I have told this to people before, I slipped a little when hip throwing him and he didn't know proper breakfalls so he landed right on his dome. I think you may be right about one thing and that is the fact that BJJ players are just plain better at the ground game for the most part. It's what they train for constantly so it makes sense that they would excell in it.

Im sure alot of people would like to do that..that way they could live in a world of ignorance and not see obvious weekneeses pointed out by a little brazilian guy...unfortunatly some people still do. Did I claim too? No, but I think The UFC is one of the best judges there has been for what types of techniques work in a real fight. there are no red belts in BJJ I dont have to prove anything for BJJ to be succesful...look at it's track record..im sure you would like to ignore that also. First off I didn't say BJJ wasn't successful, I was mearly saying that it is a fallacy to presume that because TJJ isn't in UFC means that it isn't as effective. A TJJ player knows the same submissions as a BJJ player so I think that it is safe to say it would have had some success in the early ufc's. Now do you care to actually answer my questions regarding what would be considered success in the UFC 1,2,3? I would suggest you find a TJJ dojo and go and participate... I'm sure they will be happy to show you the effectiveness of JJ. P.S. I forgot to make the distinction between TJJ often called nihon jujutsu and modern jujutsu offten called Goshin or Gendai jujutsu. Nihon is TJJ and modern or Goshin is any that came after 1897 or more specifically WWll. Both use similar terminalogy but goshin focuses on modern applications where as nihon focuses on the old school stuff ( swords, wrist grabbing, etc)

You are the only one who displayed some good knowledge of this subject. I actually was arguing with a friend about the very same point about the relationship between BJJ and Judo but he would not hear of it until I whipped out JUDO in action and showed him all of the moves he thought were exclusive to BJJ. I loved it when his face dropped to the floor!!

And another thing, how do you measure success in NHB/UFC? In the old days you fought two or three matches before the final round. Well is it or is it not success if you win 2/3 matches? If I submit one guy in the first match, and then choke a guy out in the second but lose in the third match does that mean my style doesn't work? What does it mean?

Ummm... Because no TJJ student has ever entered it maybe? I take it that you study/like BJJ right? Ok then let's forget about what Royce Gracie did in UFC 1,2,3. What can YOU do? Have YOU ever beat a TJJ student. I ask you this because you seem to like to judge all styles by their success or lack-there-of in NHB competition when the reality of it is that was Royce Gracie, someone who has trained everyday for most of his life in BJJ. Don't ride on the coat tails of Royces victories, what can YOU do? What if you freefight with a traditional jujutsuka and get beat, does that mean that it is better then BJJ? Does it mean the BJJ is inferior to TJJ because YOU lost or does it just mean that that one particular guy was just better than you? Lets say for example a Karate student who is a red belt knocks out a BJJ red belt , does it mean the karate is better then bjj now?

Check this out. http://www.combatwrestling.com/shuaichiao.html

Here is some info from the main website combatshuaichiao.com Shuai-Chiao's Modern Evolution & the Birth of American Combat Shuai-Chiao Association During ancient times, Shuai-Chiao's earliest usage was as a military hand-to-hand combat training system. Following the Chin Dynasty (after 246 B.C.), the art of Shuai-Chiao began to disseminate into the general populace with the establishment of safer competition rules. Even from its earliest beginnings, most of the well-known Shuai-Chiao practitioners were also experienced in other forms of martial arts. Because of this, some teachers incorporated the striking techniques from other systems while teaching their students. Thus, strong techniques from other striking arts can be seen during combat situations when Shuai-Chiao is applied. In order to preserve the essence of Shuai-Chiao's original fighting science and its true application in combat, some of Gransmaster Ch'ang Tung-sheng's students organized the American Combat Shuai-Chiao Association in 1990. Currently, there are four main branches of the American Combat Shuai-Chiao Association. These branches are overseen by the senior-most members of the association who trained with Grandmaster Ch'ang. The contact information for each branch is listed below, as is a short instructor bio for each of the branch holder. In addition to the sport-style competition, we also have developed the combat-style Shuai-Chiao competition. For the safety of the participants, body armor is worn to allow the fullest expression of combat technique under the most realistic situations possible, while mitigating the risk of permanent or serious injury.

Hey Doktervet, I'm not sure if there are any in Toronto,sorry dude. You can try a search online and look up combat shuai chiao and get some info. But from what I can tell you they are VERY selective in who they will train usually reserving their stuff for cops and military people. But on occasion they will train civilians. And yes they do have the world Shuai Chiao championchips in beijing China. It's a serious grappling competition with some monster throws. Combat style shuai chiao is a little diferent from the competition stuff because the throws are designed to make the victim land on their head or any part of the body that will cause serious injury in conjunction with chokes, locks, and strikes. This is some kick * stuff!!!

I'm gonna get killed by my friends for saying this but in alll honesty if you want to learn the most bone crunching throws then I recommend combat shuai chiao. It is the grand daddy of jujutsu and judo and was the original style of kung fu. It has strikes but is primarilly a grappling art that is making a slow come back. The difference between shuai chiao and judo is in the way the chinese set up the throw and belive me it makes all the difference in the world.

By the way this is in no way a diss to BJJ, but since some on this forum seem to think it is exempt from the dreaded TMA label then I have no choice but to use it as an example.

Hey Treebranch. It's not as if I'm trying to diss MMA or anything you know? I am just pointing out that there is NOTHING new under the sun and that you don't always have to train in a hardcore method to develope your skills. As a matter of fact I would say that most of my time is devoted to developing functional strength, particularly in the areas that are most relevant to my style such as my abs, my legs, and especially my grip. I also devote alot of time to breathing exercises and speed drills as well as cardio. I also spend time disecting the techniques of my art and developing combat strategy. Combat strategy to me is simply knowing what works best in a particular scenario. For example when studying my arts techniques I am thinking; Who am I fighting, is he trained or untrained and if he is trained which techniques work best against a trained fighter. If you do these things you won't have to do hardcore training AS MUCH. I say as much because I still belive at some point you have to go all out and use it against a style different from your own just to see where you are at realisticly in your training. I think an art like yours has enough depth in it to were you can spar hard against someone else, and if you lose you can go back to your curriculum and see if the information is in there to do better next time around. The place I used to go to has moved to God knows where but I know a place called Ring of fire martial arts that holds a no holds barred/grappling type training session every friday night and they invite people from different styles to come in and tussle. It's located in Arcadia which is not to far from Glendale if you are interested. These guys are hardcore combat hapkido/kickboxing experts so if you don't do well the first time out don't worry. Taijitsu is pretty comprehensive so just go back and check out your curriculum and go back to try again. The Guys there are very respectful and don't constantly bash you if you study a TMA because they are only interested in what THEIR style can or can't do, not what other peoples styles can't do. Now on the other hand if you go there and after a long time NEVER have any success then I would recommend that you look into another style or at least try to find a way to make your techniques applicable to the situation.

Look I have a lot of respect for the traditional MA. I have sparred with many people over the years from different styles to test the effectiveness of my style of jujutsu and I have fared very well. Every friday I used to go and compete in all out contact at a local no holds barred and grappling gym. I've had a chance to go up against BJJ, hapkido, and other styles and have done very well. One of the reasons I went to do this is because at my dojo we didn't "go all" out so I needed to see if I really possesed the skills I thought I had. I went up against a bjj guy and we tussled for what seemed like forever until I caught him with an O-Guruma throw (basically a glorified hip throw) but somehow lost my balance in the process ( which usually happens when attempting a complex throw) and he landed right on his head and was knocked out. If you can picture this it basically looked like I drove his skull right into the matt while attempting the throw. He was seriously hurt and had to be taken to the hospital where we found out he had a severe concussion and a badly strained neck. After that I never trained in that manner again because I could have killed him and I don't want anything like that on my soul. So I say that just to say this, just because some people prefer not to train "all out" does not mean that they don't have functional combat skills from the TMA they study. But I understand where the MMA advocates are coming from as well. I have dabbled in other arts such as; eagle claw kung fu, karate, and other arts that just weren't doing it for me be it because of my body type (6'2" 220) or because of what seemed to be ineffectiveness of the techniques. When I found goshin hakkoryu jujutsu I knew it would be my last stop. It takes the best of modern jujutsu and brings back in the kano/Kimura kodokan style judo techniques to form a comprehensive art. But even with that I still have studied some shuai chiao and catch wrestling not so much for self defense but just because I like to research the similarites they have to japanese jujutsu that even Farmer Burns himself acknowleged existed. But I guess this type of debate about the TMA vs MMA will go on and on. I will say that I challenge any so-called MMA to find a technique that hasn't been used before in TMA. And since MMA is new and constantly evolving that shouldn't take to long...right? Better yet I'll make it easier for you, find me a BJJ technique that isn't in the kodokan judo book that Kano wrote or any other judo book written prior to 1970.

Actually Jet Li has trained in thai boxing and other hard styles that he uses for more hardcore films. But his speed and power are very functional in realilty. Some say he may be even faster then Bruce Lee was.

opps I did it again.

And about those wrist grab scenerios. I have actually tussled with this concept in my own training but have found that they can be applicable to other situations such as when clinched and a guy is trying to trap your hand/wrist or something of that nature. But I study a Goshin style of jujutsu so we don't do alot of the wrist grab as a fight starter to begin with. I find that with some practice and some good ol' american know how you can take these little martial art self defence scenerios and make them work some how. Take the infamous one handed collar/lapple grab the most locking techniques are taught from. Now how many fights actually start like this? If I were one of these martial artists who constantly bash TMA I would say "see, I told you this won't work in the real world" or what ever other stupid remark these people use. Or I could trap his hand to my lapel area, and then try to apply lock x y or z.

Hmmm lets see here. Most MMA study bjj, which has a vast majority of it's techniques from kodokan judo, which came from traditional jujitsu. So I guess they do use them in some way .