goshinman

Over the years we have had huge debates over the role of NHB events and which martial arts work and don't work. All of the arguments have been accounted for and they usually go as follows; " (insert art) doesn't work in a real fight! Name one person from that style to ever compete in NHB events!" To which the usual response is; " NHB events arent real streetfights, the rules are too limiting, they don't allow eye gouges, groin shots, or fish hooks!" This banter typically goes on and on for about 20 pages until it gets boring and then a few days later it gets replayed in another post in a different forum. Well here is something that I haven't seen anyone bring up. Rorion said that his purpose of introducing nhb was to clear the air as to what styles worked in a real fight and which didn't right? But here is the problem with that. It actually proved that certain styles were superior to others, but that wasn't the intent. Take the cop that won ufc 3 I belive it was. He was a japanese jujitsu guy wasn't he? In ufc 4 he took out a former pro boxer with a hip throw and submitted him with an armbar before getting hurt. Pat Smith Ko'ed and submitted quite a few people before losing to Ken and then Royce and he was into TKD and some kind of African martial art wasn't he? Keith Hackney was a white crane Kenpoka wasn't he? The list can go on. My point is that just because they didn't win the ufc doesn't prove that their styles don't work in a real fight now does it? It just didn't win against grappling in general and bjj in paticular. But they were effective nonetheless. It just proves the point that just becaese it didn't work in the ring doesn't mean it won't work in the street.

As I read browse through this forum I read alot of posts about "what would you do against a streetfighter?" or "what is a streetfighter?" I have seen some good answers and some rather bad ones so as a person who was actually in a gang and has participated in violent acts and altercations I'd like to give you all my take on it. For the most part, the street fighter is a myth that was made up by so-called "REALITY BASED" martial arts teachers. I won't say their names but they are all well known and you can see them in all of the top martial arts mags. When dicussing the topic of the streetfighter one needs to keep two things in mind. 1) Their is no person who trains in a style called street fighting. 2) when you train for the streetfighter you are not actually training to fight a person, but rather a WAY of fighting. What do I mean you ask? Streetfighting is a fast paced and chaotic brawl. It happens suddenly, and it happens anywhere. From my experience fights usually go in the same sequence. Words are exchanged, followed by a walk up, and then fists start flying. On the streets you can expect to encounter 1 of 3 kinds of fighter. 1) Sloppy brawler types. 2) Semi trained 3) Trained. Lets look at the first type. The sloppy brawler type is what I call a "likes to fight guy". An encounter with him usually goes like this. Loud talking or "woofing" as I call it, When punches are exchanged he attacks fast and relentlessly. He usually will swing wildly and put full commitment into every swing and kick/stomp. He will clinch and go for a take down and try to wrestle or stomp you while you are down. Usually when all is said and done there is very minimal damage to their victim. These are the easiest type of people for trained martial artists to prepare for because they are so predictable. But in reality they are very difficult when in an actual fight with them because of the furious nature of their attack. 2) Semi trained. This guy is well represented in the street. He may have had some training in his life such as wrestling in high school or boxing for a little while but for the most part he may have had an uncle or other relative who showed him how to fight. Either way he is a tough guy to handle because he has SOME skills. 3) Trained. This guy is the closet martial artist. He may have taken martial arts all his young life and been very good at them but he loves to get into streetfights because of his bad upbringing. I knew a guy like this who was a VERY skilled striker but had no regard for the philosophy of the martial arts. He was taught by his father who didn't give a damn about disipline or any of that. I seen this guy actually kick someone in the knee and tear the acl. Never mind the fact that this guy did not want to fight. This kind a of fighter is rare and you will likely never encounter him but if you do you had better be ready for a REAL battle. Having looked at these kinds of fighters I can only offer this advice. On the streets you can NEVER ASSUME. You must always assume that your opponent will be just as good as you and NEVER underestimate him or her for that matter. This is the drawback of most martial arts because most TMA assume you are fighting an untrained opponent who is 6'0" tall and right handed. He in reality can be left handed or ambidexterus. Yopu just never can tell. So train with this in mind and you will be ok.

I think that you definately should do it. Your trainining in full contact judo will help you to see how to apply the more eccentric techniques of JJJ in ways that you would never get without judo training. It's just something about doing a full force martial art that helps you be able to see the gaps to apply complicated techniques such as wristlocks and the like.

I understand that but I think you are missing his point. I think he pointed out that the HIGHER PERCENTAGE moves could be pulled off with or without the gi. When I say high percentage I mean the stuff that you commonly see done in mma and adcc type events such as; armbars, naked chokes, and stuff like that.

Well he did specify judo and kyokushin, so the training methods and conditioning would be excellent to say the least.

Great topic. For me it all comes down to the envoirnment. Since he is swinging his arms wildly which means mostly a looping/circular motion and I'm in a wide open area I'd step back to give myself spacing and when he closes the gap I'd blast him with a straight-arm palm strike to his chin or face, clinch and then take him down with an extra nasty osoto otoshi (which could knock him out) or morote gari (double leg) and take him down, russian mount him and work some ground and pound. If I see some buddies coming to aide him i'm outta there with a soccer kick as i'm leaving. If it's a cramped space like a bathroom stall I'd clinch immeadiatly and go for a standing kata gatame (side choke) but my first option is a guilletine.

Any hold that puts pressure on the shoulder is very painfulin my opinion. Ankle locks are painful too.

Let's PM each other because this is getting way off topic.

Waldomiro Perez is the instructor of the bjj camp. He is a cool guy, but some of his students are jerk offs.

Toying with me Man please thats not even fair. You've been studying judo for what, 20 years now? Thats almost longer than I've been alive. My ground game has gotten alot better as I have learned a few new tricks. My throwing is alway's good. All this despite the fact that at the dojo i'm training in right now they don't allow full out randori. But I manage to keep my skills sharp by rolling with the best peeps I can find in the area. I've been boxing alot lately and doing some thai clinch work over at the new gym down on colorado. The one that is a BJJ/Muaythai academy. It's pretty cool but some the BJJ guy's are a pain in the *.

The knee is fine. I've just been training and working. Still trying to get in with a P.D but no one is hiring right now because of the budget cuts so I just have to wait and see. Hey man what ever happend to R.O.F? I drove by there one day a few months ago and the building was closed down and it didn't have a sign up that said they had relocated or anything.

It's Danale from the old R.O.F dojang. Remember the nhb contests they used to hold every friday night?

I learned the technique in it's most basic form first and then the principals behind it. The principal of a techniques is what makes it work against a resisting opponent vs a static opponent who is not fighting back. I know that you should know that one Steve.

If I were to look at this hypothetical situation from the prospective of a juror, It seems to me that it would be much easier to persuade me that during a fight that the accused defended himself by punching another guy who accidently fell and hit his head, causing him to die as a result. That to me seems much more defensible than a guy choking someone to death. Given the fact that Choking just sounds so much more cruel, coupled with the fact that the accused had some degree of control over the situation would mean bad news for the defendent. Was he still fighting you while you were choking him? Did you feel him stop moving? If you did then why didn't you stop choking him? Those are all questions you would have to be able to answer. ESPECIALLY if you have vast experience in BJJ or JUDO because you had better belive that a D.A. will hammer that point home to jurors.

Ahh, but the key there is that both Judo and BJJ stylists are highly trained in that regard. They have refined their technique in the dojo and in competition so they know how to properly apply and disengage from a choke. Now contrast that with people who only have a basic knowledge of chokes and not a functional/working knowledge of chokes and you end up with a recipe for disaster. An example of this can be a karateka who only trains in how to apply a choke but never learns how to apply it against a resisting opponent. He gets into an altercation and attempts to apply a choke but fails to properly apply it or doesn't know when to release it and he ends up killing the guy. Another example of this the high fatality rate on men who have had chokes applied on them by cops. It is for this very reason that choking techniques have been banned by the LAPD and other law enforcement agencies. A man was choked to death in Pasadena by a police officer only 7 months ago and the department is debating on rather or not they should ban the technique. When you train against resisting opponents you learn not only the proper application of chokes but you also learn the naunces of position, how to let the sqruiming of your opponent aid you into sinking in a choke more effectively instead of forcing it in and breaking his/her neck in the process. These mistakes can be avoided with this type of training and I belive it is essential for people who want to use chokes in a real fight.

JohnnyS you are hillarious! I love the way you so casually said that. But in all seriousness johnnyS is correct but I would ad that some serious brain damage will be caused if you sustain a choke for longer then 1-2 minutes. It usaully takes about 8 seconds to make someone go out if you have a good choke set in. But if the person is out and you continue the choke you can expect to be taking a nice long vaction "up state" if you catch my drift.

If a pure wrestler fought a BJJ expert or a Judo expert he would most likely be submitted by both. Generally speaking Bjj people are more technical on the the ground then most judoka. Of cousre there are always exceptions but generally this is true. Same goes for judoka being better at throws then bjj peolple. Thats just the way it is. Now bjj vs kosen judo.... That's something I would LOVE to see.

I read that entire article and it didn't seem as though Dave had alot of nice things to say about Judo. He said wrestling throws are better and that 90% of the stuff he learned in judo he has discarded. Sounds like he's been CONVERTED.

Kyokushinkai, Eshin ryu, Seidokan, and Shidokan. Those are the best karate styles with shidokan being the most well rounded because you learn grappling and kickboxing as well. Problem is that schools are hard to find for either one of these styles.

It was my understanding that Maeda taught Gracie kosen judo. Kosen focuses 90% on groundwork. It was through the developement of Kosen judo in japan that we get the guard position, and all of it's variations (spider guard ect.) The pinning positions and the submissions such as cross body armbar and the like. The kosen was created in order to expand on the grappling concepts that Kano learned from the Fusen ryu jujitsu guy's that the kodoakn lost to so badly. If anyone doubts this info you can get the Kosen judo tapes which show this material in detail. The only drawbacks are that the tapes were made in 1920 I belive and they are in japanese. But they do show the various guard positions, and several transitions into submissions from these positions. And you can get "judo a-z" which shows you the banned throws, leg locks, heel hooks, spine locks and neck cranks from pre 1947 judo.

Body scissors is kind of like the little heel strikes to the kidneys and elbows that people throw when they have someone in their guard, it is more annoying then anything. I haven't seen anyone tap from body scissors before. When in your guard your primary focus should be controlling your opponents weight and keeping your own hips free so that you can be as active as possible when you attempt a sweep, submission, or defending against strikes and attempts to pass your guard. Focus on the basics and forget fancy stuff like body scissors because they generally don't work.

Before this thread self destructs into yet another bjj vs the world thread Maybe, what I said has somehow been misunderstood. I simply stated that a good judo school can turn you into just a good of a ground grappler as a bjj school. Gumbi is correct in that he is talking about sport judo. They train almost exclusivly under competition rules. However there are some judo clubs that focus almost entirely on newaza and are awesome on the ground. But generally the ratio for most schools is about 70/30 for nagewaza and newaza. But a great deal of time is also devoted to learning the various pinning positions in judo and the counters, as well as possible submissions from them.

Igor Yakimov, Mark Robinson, and Hayato Sakurai in the abu dhabi 1999 challenge.

Wow, six examples since 1950. Your propoganda convinced me. After this summer I'm going to cross train with some judo people for a school semester or two. I'll have to dig up this thread then. My propoganda Did you even read the WHOLE article? Anywayz, In the mean time read this. http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/kano.html Click on the newaza link.

Oh and by the way can you name even one bjj expert who has defeated a judoka in either a pure grappling match or in NHB? I mean since bjj groundwork is so much better then surely you can name someone right? While your scratching your head trying to think of one check this link out. http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judovsbjj.html