Shorin Ryuu

Gojuchad: That's fine. Regardless of whether or not you said anything, I would have eventually posted something on the topic in this thread anyway. However, even after many years of doing the kata (or perhaps because of), there are still biomechanical, structural things a kata can tell you. Not just where things are wrong, but things that may be "more right" than others. But, I understand where you are coming from.

Sorry for posting. I didn't realize you had direct say over who could post and when. Just kidding.

I think the important thing to realize that it isn't the kata itself (although I do consider many advanced kata to emphasize more things than other kata), but how you do it. I pose you this question. Now for everyone reading this, you can replace the name of the person with anyone you want to, and the name of the kata with a simple beginner's kata in your style. If Miyagi Chojun did Gekisai, or if Chibana Chosin did Pinan Shodan, are those kata "beginner's kata"? I don't think so. His Gekisai was the kata of a master. Your gekisai may be the kata of a beginner when you first start it. But as you progress, for the sake of example, when you become shodan, your gekisai better be a shodan kata and not just a "beginner's kata". Just something to think about.

Really, what everyone is talking about is simple task-saturation. That means that the faster and more attacks are brought to bear upon you, the less time you have to react or even think about each one. That isn't unique to fighting. Just think about having someone asking you simple multiplication math problems while you are juggling bowling pins and playing hopskotch. Isshinryuka brings up a good point. Simply going all out will lose its effectiveness the more experience your opponent is. The key for you later on is to have a good offense, but not at the expense of your defense. Nothing is wrong with attacking someone full force, but if you leave yourself wide open, it is then that there is something wrong. [insert standard "your offense is your defense, your defense is your offense" quote here.]

Obviously, dippedappe and I are in agreement here. I am anxious to hear what the response will be... On another note, gojuchad wrote: Now, this following post is a full thought, so it should be read all the way before being dissected. I think there is often too much of a zen emphasis on doing the kata. Indeed, it is all too tempting to just empty the mind and "go through the motions." There are many levels you must consider when doing the kata, to include but not limited to, bunkai, energy, breathing, biomechanics, meditation, etc. It has become a buzz phrase to say "let go of the mind" and "your mind must become empty", "Do not think, feel" and so on and so forth. I'm not accusing anyone here in particular of doing this, but I think it is all too common that people say these things without really understanding what it means. To them, it is just a pleasant phrase that sounds philosophical, or something. But if anything, I find it incredibly easy to "let the kata do itself" and to get into this unthinking flow. I find it more difficult to analyze what it is I'm doing, the structural strengths and weaknesses of certain positions, and the constant envisioning of an opponent: all at a very high speed. What I do not believe the main purpose of the kata is spiritual development or satori. Is spiritual development important? Yes. Is meditation or at least the ability to bring calm to yourself important? Yes. I'm not denying this, nor am I denying the fact that many karate masters of old stressed these things. But, you can relax with a six pack of beer, a few calm breaths, or flat out meditation. I don't need my kata to do that, and in the old days (think pre-1900s), they didn't use kata to achieve them either. When doing the kata, I think it is important to think about what it is you are doing. Pay attention to how your body feels. Is your shoulder telling you a movement is too far? Does your knee say that perhaps there is something wrong with your stance? Does one position seem more structurally sound than another position that is the difference of three inches? Try to understand the concepts that this kata is trying to show you. Obviously, if you do this, you may not look quite as smooth as before, you may even make mistakes. The more you practice, and the more you get a deeper feel for the kata, the less "brain space" it will take to do this. But, if you never take the extra step, if you always try to make your kata only a tool for medititation, then I don't think you gain as much from the kata as you can. If you simply go through the motions, then you will become guilty of what Shapeless accuses many karateka or Chinese martial artists of doing. This brings up an important distinction. I believe there is an incredible difference between an empty mind and a clear mind. What I think is desired in studying and doing kata is a clear mind. Now before people jump all over this, let me explain. Yes, I have read Musashi's Book of Five Rings. Yes, I have read many of Bruce Lee's books. Yes, I have read many books on the influence of zen and the martial arts and zen and the influence on Japanese culture. Yes, one of the majors in my undergrad was Foreign Area Studies (East Asia). So I understand the arguments behind zen and the culture behind it all. If you look at a lot of comments the Japanese had about Okinawan martial arts in the early decades of the 1900s, they felt that it was an incomplete art. This means that it heavily emphasized fighting and didn't really try to incorporate spirituality into it. The archaic training methods didn't make it readily teachable to more than a small number of people. Consequently, the Japanese influence on Okinawan karate was large. Okinawan karate had to adapt in order for it to be accepted by the mainstream Japanese population. All of these changes are best left to another post, but one of these changes, I feel, was an overemphasis of spirituality and self-development at the expense of some practicality. At any rate, despite how often I myself use the word "traditional", it does make you realize that many things that the word "traditional" implies, aren't traditional at all when it comes to Okinawan karate. With a clear mind, you not only feel what is going on, but you actively record your experience so that it can be later compared, analyzed, whatever. There is another difference here. The difference between an analyzing, clear mind and an analyzing, cluttered mind. In other words, you can over-think things. What is the difference? You tell me. For everyone, it will be different. Some people think faster than others, or can handle more information flow than others. But the fact is, if you don't think, it is much more difficult to learn not only what you are doing, but why you are doing it. All of this was on how the mind should be while doing kata. There are some similarities as well as differences on how the mind should be when in an actual fighting situation. But, that is a discussion for another time, and I doubt there are that many people who read this whole boring post anyway. As usual, I am in danger of rambling the more I type (some people would say I start rambling the instant I go beyond a few sentences), so I'll stop now.

Gekisai itch? Sounds like something you get after a night of indiscriminate encounters... I learned this kata from a teacher in a different style. I never cared to maintain it, since it was just something I learned extra and I didn't see any new concepts that jumped out at me. However, it does seem somewhat familiar to what I learned.

Congratulations. It is a long, unending journey, so stick with it and it'll take you many places.

Pullups (hands facing out, but perhaps hands facing in as well) will probably help your punches...just make sure you do them properly (body held straight, no swaying or kicking).

Just for frame of reference, I myself started out with ball bearings and a really heavy set of nunchaku in the beginning (not out of any scientific reasoning, but that was just the pair that I bought years back). And as my previous post indicated, I have since switched to cord.

What grip would be used for close distance? I've been playing around with the "open" grip, both with wrist perpendicular (sort of) and parallel (palm upwards) to the ground during close distance. I haven't bothered with long distance, as I don't consider it a long-distance weapon. What I mean long distance is anything over 6 feet or so. This distance doesn't take into account any movement you take before the throw, but simply the distance between the hand and the target at the time of the throw. In my opinion, anything farther causes the thing to go end over end, which isn't good (and there's no point in attacking someone that far away anyway, at least not with a sai).

Just as a side-note... In Japan, the title of "Soke" is pretty well-established as the founder of a style. On Okinawa, however, most all respectable Okinawan karate masters shy away from claiming to be the "soke" of their style...I think Nagamine Shoshin's son gets some flak for calling himself the Soke of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, from what I hear. I think it falls under the line of "there's nothing new under the sun" in martial arts, and claiming to be a soke is rather arrogant, in the Okinawan view. Once again, this is in contrast to the Japanese view (apparently), and definitely in contrast to the American view of "soke", where anyone and everyone seems to be one. Now this does have implications on the nature of styles and systems itself, but I'm just commenting more upon the fact that the title of "soke" is used very little among traditional Okinawans, just as a matter of course. The whole notion of rigid styles and such in Okinawa is relatively new anyway (1930s), but once again, I'm just talking about the specific usage of the title "soke". Granted, this is really nothing more than an excursion into the world of semantics, but I'm interested in what others feel about this as well.

Well, I wasn't just talking about the centerline, but everything else as well. Yes, please put in that part 3, we're anxious to see it.

Well, seeing how you have started quite a few threads in the past (or posted in them) about this topic, I'll be a bit more specific than I was in answering your others. (This is also an answer to one you wrote on Oct. 1, but I apparently didn't see it). And yes, I've already recommended the Okinawa Program to you in the past, perhaps, but I'll do it again, don't worry. Well, these are guidelines that I use to eat: Get more of your protein from plant sources rather than animals. There's a lot of free radicals in red meat, which cause cancer. I'm not saying become a vegetarian; I'm not one. Americans just tend to eat more meat than they need. Fish is a better source than red meat. Soy is good for you. Give in to the soy... Tofu isn't bad if you don't eat it straight up (I'm wierd so I don't mind it that way either) and is a good source of protein. Eat less processed foods. Eat less simple, refined sugars (stuff that makes things really sweet). These hit the blood stream quicker and cause a spike in your blood sugar levels, causing your body to produce lots of insulin, causing the down after a sugar high, etc. Too much of this gives you diabetes. Carbs aren't bad for you. Complex carbs are actually good for you. Trans fat is to be avoided as much as possible (partially hydrogenated oils) as they are simply not healthy in any amount. Some saturated fat is okay, but less is better. All fats are not bad. Monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats actually raise the levels of healthy cholesterol and lower the levels of unhealthy cholesterol. Snack on fruits if you want something sweet. Fructose hits your blood sugar more slowly than processed sweets. Do you like rice? Eat brown rice instead of white rice because brown rice has more nutrients. Are you living by yourself? I am, which makes it much easier to control what I eat since I have to buy and cook it. Lastly, buy a good book on nutrition. Or two. Or three. It helps to see several opinions on nutrition. Now this part is relevant to your Oct. 1 post. In this post, you asked if you didn't follow the diet as it was it in the book, but still used the guidelines, would you still get the results... I've recommended this book a lot just because I liked it: The Okinawa Program. It has solid nutrition info and if you really wanted to be hardcore, a specific diet regimen that lets you plan out meals for each day (and a recipe section for those meals). I don't follow the diet regimen, I just apply the knowledge of what I know to what I want to eat (and cook). Now, as far as you reaching a stop in weight loss, there could be several factors. One of these might be that your body has gotten used to your current workout routine and you need to mix it up a little. One recommendation I have for you, if you aren't doing it already, is to run or bike or swim. I don't like to run personally, because of my knees, but regardless, these three activities are very good for fat loss. Being the naturally-close-to-unhealthy-low-levels-of-body-fat person that I am, I always have to ensure I artificially introduce more levels of fat into my diet (or eat more) in order to not look terribly skinny (sunken cheeks, that sort of thing) whenever I go really hardcore on this.

Darn...I've been found out... Double Darn...I should stop posting my thoughts aloud...

Well, at 16 percent body fat, you have a lot of body fat to lose without worrying about losing too much. However, as mentioned, you must still ensure that you are gaining the proper nutrients for just an overall healthy lifestyle. Your diet does some somewhat similar to mine, by the way. I'm not a vegetarian, but I only eat meat (non-fish) once every other week or so. To burn fat while exercising (unless you do something which I consider foolish, like the Atkins plan), you need to intake carbs. But if you are simply thinking about cutting back on your calories, maybe you want to eat more low calorie foods instead (but not necessarily starve yourself). Now as far as free time goes...you always have time to train, if you really want it. Trust me, I had 22, 24 credit hour semesters back in college, and still managed to train several hours a day (voluntarily, and on top of the other demands of a military academy on my time...). It's all a matter of priority. Fortunately, if you're just concerned about gaining fat, you can just bike or run for half an hour a day and not worry about it. Half an hour a day really isn't that much.

Yeah, Tom is in quite a few of my classes. The other day, we were fooling around, doing some knife stuff. As far as the Dojang goes...I probably won't be going there anytime soon (I train elsewhere on the weekdays). I still say training perhaps at NPS would be a good idea. If nothing else, we could just meet at a park or something.

Good point. But seriously, nice posts, Drunken Monkey. I like a lot of this deeper analysis of concepts and characteristics rather than some of the other post like: "Wow, yesterday I sparred and knocked someone unconsious (sp?)!!!!11!!1 lol!!!11" But, I digress... I must say, a lot of those concepts are the same as Shorin Ryu and other traditional Okinawan martial arts. Are there Wing Chun forms that especially emphasize rising/falling energy? Granted, even in Shorin Ryu, these concepts are arguably present in all the kata, but we have some that I feel really emphasize them in certain points.

Faultline Warrior Classic...oh well, I didn't expect more from this area of California... At any rate, good luck (and you still haven't taken me up on the offer to do a little training) and have fun.

Yes, grappling is fun. For my grappling, I do Shorin Ryu karate... So, what makes you want to "want a change"? Is it because you feel something is lacking? And if so, what specifically? Lastly, (since this isn't 20 questions...only more like, say, 4 questions), how long have you been training?

Yeah, I've heard that before, but I haven't seen it elsewhere than a few websites (usually dojo websites, although well-meaning, will often have incorrect info on them). Where did you see that? I'm not saying you're wrong, and if anything else, a judo person can resolve this either way, but this just demonstrates the arbitrary nature anyway. All the same, there are extremely excellent 10th dans out there, and then there are others. Sadly, the "others" form a majority of the ones out there.

Having spent the last half hour experimenting with throwing the sai, I come to the same conclusion that Sauzin does, namely, that starting from very high and throwing low makes for a pretty smooth throw. I've not seen Kyan no Sai, but in a lot of the sai kata in my system (taken from a lot of Nakaima Kenkou's sai kata) and some others I've done (like Chattan Yara no Sai), that movement is in a lot of places. I have been able to produce satisfactory results without doing this, but I've found that bringing it high and then throwing it down takes advantage of energy/ki/gravity sinking as the throw lowers, making the movement quicker and with less chance of misdirection.

I've actually gone back and forth between the whole idea of "throwing the sai". On one hand, there is the oral tradition that people sometimes even had three sai so they could throw one and fight with two. This conflicts with a more common sense view that metal was pretty expensive in Okinawa, and constables probably didn't have three (or maybe even two). Look at it this way. How much more does it cost to equip each constable with 3 sai each, as opposed to two or even one? Not saying that they never trained to throw them. If anything, just thinking about it makes me wince (big iron shaft at high speeds = lots of pain/injury/death). But I would like to think that there was a lot more emphasis on fighting with the sai in hand... That tangent aside, it is meant to be thrown from the "open grip", as you describe it, rather than by holding the blade. The balance would be totally off if you held the blade. As far as throwing it, I'd imagine there might be two schools of thought (of my invention, not some standard accepted division). In the school of thought that meant for the sai to flip in the air and end up blade first, it is simply practice at understanding how much force to use at certain distances to produce an optimal throw (based on how many times it may spin in the air). I'm much more inclined towards the other school of thought. This is that when you throw, you basically follow through with your hand, but you don't let the wrist bend so much as to cause the sai to do anything but make a beeline towards the target. In other words, as you throw, your arm and wrist align so that you basically point at your target. If the sai was meant to really be thrown, I don't believe the sai was meant to be thrown over a great distance. I don't have too much practice with throwing sai, to be honest, although this is prompting me to go to my backyard and test on some cardboard boxes...

The only advantage that the chains have over the cord is that the cord will eventually break. I think the cord has the advantage in everything else.

So, on the big level here, what's the difference between what I am saying and you are saying?

If anything, those that are sick can just sit off to the side and watch. There is a lot to learn by just watching a class.