Shorin Ryuu

I think the big hold-up over "unrealistic" karate technique in certain drills or kata is based upon three things (there's more, I'm sure, but these are just the ones that come to mind). First, most people assume that all drills and such use this "ridiculous hook punch that a blind person could see coming" and the like. However, that simply is not the case. Perhaps at the beginning level, attacks are "dumbed down" a bit and later progress upwards as the student advances in understanding and ability to react. I have the same sort of disappointment in places that only do those watered-down attacks. Once again, in all the true traditional schools I have trained in, that is never the case. The second reason for criticism is that there is an unhealthy obsession on technique. Did you learn this technique? Did you learn that technique? What about technique from style A, B, or C? I have techniques from 50 different styles!... Does that make one superior? Most certainly not. What is most important when doing drills and doing kata isn't the actual technique itself. What is important is the principle and concept behind it. Because as you say, you can't be 100% sure one technique is always going to work. But, you don't have to be. All the drills, all the kata, they have just been used to train certain motions and concepts. Knowing the technique is fine, but knowing the concept behind it is better. Now for many, this sounds like JKD and certainly not like traditional karate at all. However, what I'm trying to say is that the focus on concepts and principles rather than technique is far from new, and that is how masters traditionally trained backed then (and still do). If anything, I have found that it is more typical of modern schools to be guilty of obsession over techniques rather than concepts. The third reason is related to the second, and that is the traditional manner of teaching in many traditional Okinawan schools of old (and I'm sure it is similar to Chinese schools, but someone more familiar with them can say something). In those days, yes, the teacher did tell you to do things certain ways, and there were probably a lot less questions asked. Simply put, they didn't want to tell you as much until they were sure you could be trusted. That is simply more of an Asian, Confucian sort of thing (not to mention practicality, as in those days, martial arts were used solely for combat). Despite this, there wasn't a whole lot of difference between was told to every student and what was told to "trusted" students (more on this later). This isn't to say that teachers expected their students to blindly do what they always were told without thinking. On the contrary, the burden fell upon the student to figure things out for themselves. Masters would tell their students things, and if they didn't get it, then that was just tough. If they were simply content to just do as they were told, maybe they would figure things out, maybe they wouldn't. But it was only those with inquisitive natures, perception, and dedication that learned not only the techniques in and of themselves, but also the concepts behind them. It was those people that became the best fighters. That is why there really are no "secrets" to karate. It is all there. The masters now were shown basically the same things that every other student was shown back then, but they took it upon themselves to learn rather than to imitate. (This all brings up another issue, the fact that in my opinion, martial arts was never really meant to be taught en masse, simply because of the watering down of personal attention to each student, but that's something else altogether that I won't dive into.) Even now, I had a conversation with the head of my style for North America. He told me that out of all the things he knows, all the techniques, all the concepts, only 10% of it was told to him directly (and believe me, he knows quite a bit). The other 90% was figuring things out for himself through training, study, and yes, individual thought. So, if you are simply told everything, you never progress as a martial artist. You merely become a mirror of technique that people (JKD especially) find disdainful. However, I would argue that traditional training methods forced people to think about things themselves (yes, in their own "style" or "way") and express themselves, thus learning martial arts as opposed to copying them. Just my thoughts as well.

I had that feeling once and then remembered to turn off the gas on the kitchen stove...(just kidding). Just as a minor point, when you learn a style, you don't have to "do everything you are SHOWED, EXACLTY how you are taught." [sic]. Let me start this rant with the disclaimer: I'm not attacking you personally or generally. Okay, here we go. Granted, there are some things that are established as "the way" to do things, but even that changes from year to year, and is only for the purposes of preservation for future transmission (kata being the most obvious example). If anything, in traditional Okinawan karate, at least, and I'm sure the same goes for true traditional Chinese boxing, combative training was always tailored towards the individual. Sure, they were given certain drills and things to do, but everyone had their own way of doing them. You look at all the karate masters on Okinawa and what did they do? They didn't obstinately learn just one thing. They traveled all over Okinawa, learning different ways of doing things. They traveled to "mainland" Japan, China, and Taiwan. They took things they liked and discarded things they didn't like. Even nowadays, you learn the "official" way of doing kata. But as you progress, you develop your own way of doing it, the way that suits you the best. You might argue that the act of learning kata in and of itself is a sort of limitation, but that is an underestimation of the act of learning kata itself (not to mention the myriad of other training methods that karateka do in addition to kata). As far as "JKD you can implement what works for you most effective", I certainly do the same thing with my traditional karate, and have always been encouraged to do so by every single traditional karate teacher I have had or met. Sorry for going on a rant here, but the philosophy of having an open mind in regards to martial arts training isn't something unique to JKD. Perhaps that wasn't your intention in what you wrote, nor do I mean you any offense or anything like that whatsoever, I just wish to purvey to you that those who learn traditional karate are not the close-minded, rigid robots that your post implies. Once again, I'm not attacking you, and I will of course come off as sounding very defensive in my post. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way when I see what I believe to be a wrong impression of traditional martial arts.

First and foremost, I do it to be able to protect myself and others should the circumstance ever arise. That is the reason I took it up and the reason I am still doing it. Secondly, I enjoy it immensely. I love being physically and mentally active. Apart from the actual training, there is a community of traditional martial artists that for the most part, are all wonderful people (not looking down on modern martial artists, I'm just talking about the people in traditional circles that I have met). A more specific motivator is that I have/had excellent teachers that motivate(d) me to become better by their example of continual learning. Another one is that after parting ways with my best friend (who trained with me in college) after graduation, there's no way in HECK I'll let him be better than me when we meet up again (a friendly rivalry thing). I also tend to be a bit of a perfectionist in things that I care about deeply.

#1 Vale tudo #2 Kick Boxing #3 Boxing #4 Jeet Kune Do #5 Krav Maga Well, I did box a bit in college, but it's a pity they don't have traditional Okinawan karate as an option (I doubt they really understand what it is like, anyway).

Yes, once during basic training a few years before I went through it, there was someone who everyone thought was dehydrated, so they forced him to drink water over and over again. He got sick, and since the symptoms of overhydration are the same as dehydration, they gave him more fluids via IV... He died of water poisoning...

I've read in a few places that Funakoshi added side kicks to a lot of the kata, so that is what you may be seeing. But in terms of the pinan kata, I don't think there are any side kicks that Chibana added/changed. From what I remember of my Matsumura Shorin Ryu training, we didn't do side kicks in the pinan kata either. But, despite my insistence on keeping kata true to tradition, we really have to realize how kata was done and taught back in the old days. They didn't care if everyone looked the same or not. The level of precision and exactness that is demanded by teaching mass numbers of karateka around the world is a rather artificial construct that we have added to the kata. Body mechanics will vary from individual to individual, so as the study of kata progresses, so must the understanding of how it should apply to your body. Like I said, back then, they didn't care too much about the precise placement of certain moves, as they were more concerned with the concept behind it. The motions themselves were more important than the exact position in many cases. Nowadays we ask the heads of various styles "where exactly does this go?" and we sort of put them on the spot. Sure, they pick one "official" way of doing it, but even that sometimes changes slightly from year to year. There is a marked difference between the "gold standard" of how the kata should be officially done, and then how you should do the kata to match your own unique body mechanics. That "gold standard" is useful for keeping the template for future transmission, but since we aren't all mass-produced robots, our own individual kata should vary slightly. This is really just more of my rant, rather than dealing specifically with whether a side kick should be a front kick, or whatnot.

The trailer doesn't show enough of her sai technique to let me judge if it is any good or not, but taking Daredevil into account and a photo of her holding the sai for Elektra, it does look a little suspect. On a positive note, I saw a picture of her holding a bo, and her knuckles are actually over the top of the bo (although since it is a pose, I really have no way of knowing whether it should be on top or bottom...). As far as sai wrapping goes, there are a wide variety of things you could use. Mine are just cord. For the criss-cross pattern, I suppose you could do it, but I envision it shifting around a lot do to the types of manipulation you do using the sai. It would have to be pretty tight, I think.

Plus, they don't have that annoying bulge where the prongs meet the main shaft. With that bulge you get in mass-produced sai, it is harder to use your thumb to press up against the center for proper sai technique.

Great! I learned more these past few months than I have this past year, I think.

I'm actually unsure, but I thought it was the other way around, that it was originally a front kick, but was later changed to a side kick. Kusanku Dai is Nakazato Sensei's favorite kata, by the way. Edit: You keep mentioning a side kick in Pinan yondan. I'm just curious, but as I said before, I never (in Shorinkan, which we both do) have seen any side kicks in pinan yondan. There are the two kicks before the elbow strike to either side (front kicks), the kick down the center before the backfist (front kicks) and the kicks before the two punches on either side (front kicks), and then the knee kick, but I honestly know of any place where there is a side kick...

There are some deeper stances, but you never throw a kick or anything like that from those stances. Those are almost always, at least in my mind, used specifically for grappling and throwing (i.e., not a front stance). Even in our deepest stance (hachimonji dachi), quick movement and transition is possible because the biomechanics of it allows for movement without relying on pure muscle power. I can not stress enough the difference between a plain low stance and a biomechanically sound low stance. Note: This next rant deals specifically with STRIKING. Some lower stances may produce this "power" that people talk about when they talk about "powerful low stances". However, I think most people do not realize what makes it powerful. While it does build muscles, this is not what makes it powerful. People mistake the feeling of the activation of muscles they develop by deep stances as "power" emanating from a stance. This, I think, is a mistake. With muscles, you can still feel that same "power" from a higher stance. The only way that a deeper stance causes power is from "falling" energy. Simply put, lower your center of gravity from higher to lower behind your strike (falling into the target, almost). But the key to this is starting from a higher to a lower stance, not a low stance to a low stance, which is what many do. This is big in a lot of the kobudo I do (not necessarily going into a real deep stance, as our kobudo stances are higher than our empty hand, but the notion of higher to lower stances is there). On the flip side of the coin, you can use "rising" power to strike from a lower to a higher stance. So, whatever controversy this may cause, I think that low stances don't build "power", they just build muscles. The stance itself does not give you any extra power. If anything else, you are only building those muscles because you "handicap" yourself by using an impractical stance, forcing the muscles to compensate (if the stance was biomechanically optimum, it would put very little strain on the muscles). Sometimes lower stances are good for training, but only during training, in my opinion. Now, that was only in regards to striking. In terms of grappling, Shorinkan has some deeper stances, like shiko dachi and hachimonjidachi. Once again, these stances are not deadlocked, but should be free-flowing due to biomechanical setup. The main usage of these deeper stances is to sink the weight and enable grappling and throwing. Also, the usage of the legs in the grappling and throwing is also enabled by a deep stance for leverage purposes. Lastly, (not really, just the last point I'm going to write here) a lot of the takedowns end up with an armbar against the leg or knee in a lower stance. The "rising" and "falling" energy discussed in striking also apply here to the grappling situation, but in this case, going from a low stance and remaining low does not present the same problems as striking does. All this is my opinion, feel free to debate it if you wish (as always).

He didn't do the Pinans in this footage (unless my brain is just dying right now), but he did the naihanchi and the other advanced kata. He didn't do Gojushiho (I think Chibana knew a version, but he never taught it). But, back to the question. In Kusanku Dai, he did do it more like a front kick than a side kick, if I recall correctly. Nowadays, we do a side kick, but it looked closer to a front kick on the tape. One of these days, I'm just going to have to sit down and watch them over and over, if my instructor doesn't mind (he actually suggested it). But today was just sort of letting me see them. As far as all the kicks in Pinan yondan, I've always done them as front kicks...I don't remember seeing anything different from that...

Yes, you should also be careful about your joints. Having too heavy a bo might be bad for your shoulders, even if you are a big, strong guy.

Darn, I should have thought up of my versions before I looked at yours, JEM618, because I see your versions now and think they're pretty good. Ronnryu, those look good enough to use. Thanks to JEM618 for doing all the hard work this time.

Saw the videos of Chibana Chosin today. Just like I heard, the kata is extremely close to the way we do it in Shorinkan today. These videos were taken the year before Chibana died, but he is still pretty active. As a side note, for all you Kenpo people, I saw some video of Oyata (I think it was around 20 years old? I'm not sure) doing a whole bunch of bunkai for various kata. That was pretty impressive and painful looking.

Post it here, and I can do it for you, unless you are looking for something more continuous... I'm actually headed out the door in a few minutes, so I won't get to it right away.

Hmm...I've heard of rattan shields being used against the British back in the 1800s...but yeah, not much else.

Delta1 speaks great words of wisdom here. He is describing how old karate guys can be faster than all the young bucks out there. The key, as he said, is moving into position and eliminating wasted movement, which are things both separate and related. Moving into position makes you appear faster by moving towards your opponent as he moves towards you. Think of it this way: If your opponent moves towards you and you stay still, it'll take (pulling numbers out of the air just for the sake of example) 5 seconds. If you move towards him as he moves towards you, it'll take 2.5 seconds. He doesn't move any faster, but since you are moving towards him, you look like you move that much faster (since he knows he isn't moving any faster). As far as eliminating any wasted movement, once again, delta1 speaks the truth. Study and practice. I'm a big fan of kata, because kata teaches you proper body mechanics and positioning, which helps you move into position and eliminate wasted movement, especially if you visualize an opponent. When you do your kata, you have to think that you are in a fight. It is something that is often said by many, but actually practiced by few. When you go to do a punch, or a backfist, or a block, are you pulling too far to the outside? Are you dropping your hands before you execute for no reason? Is there a reason you are "chambering" or trying to "power up" and attack by pulling back? Sometimes there is a pull back in moves in a kata for a specific reason. Sometimes that pull back is more important than the punch or block that occurs right after it. But sometimes, people add extra movement into their kata for no reason. Have someone watch your kata and tell them when they would strike you. If that person is standing where you visualize your opponent in your kata is, and they still feel like they can strike you, then you may be adding unnecessary and dangerous openings in your kata. Just some rambling...I mean...advice...

I for one have been trained so that some wrist movement is important, but manipulation with the fingers is very important. Regardless of whichever method you use, the importance is in the blade geometry and incorporating it into the method of cutting itself. Emphasizing the fingers, the first two fingers are for direction and stability while the last two are for execution. Think of it as using a Japanese katana. They don't hack with it, no matter what you may see in cheesy samurai films. Whether you are cutting through rolled up mats or through someone's flesh, it is the curvature of the blade doing the cutting. You may thrust straight, so to speak, but the curvature of the blade slices through. In this same manner, the kama relies upon the curved blade to slice, so the action of "sliding" is more important than a forceful hack. With a sharp blade, you can still get a cut with a hack, but it won't be clean. Going back to the fingers... The first two, as I mentioned, are for control. As you close the last two fingers, that is what causes the blade to slide and slice into the target. This is what Sauzin is saying by "running the blade along the flesh so it cuts." Really, like I said, the best way to truly understand what I mean is to do it yourself. Once again, people tend to be a bit miffed if you slice them up, so I recommend using cardboard boxes or the like, or you can even use high grass, small branches, leaves...If they cut cleanly, then you are doing it right. If the grass sticks to your blade after you swing, then you're just "hacking". A brief explanation, but like I said, if you want to know it better, you just have to do it.

As someone told me recently (not in regards to tournament kata, but whenever you do kata), someone watching you should go think "ow!" whenever you execute a pain-inducing technique on your imaginary opponent in your kata. Visualization is the key. And as others say, just do what you always do (simple, isn't it? ) and you should be fine.

Yes, traditional Okinawan karate has always been more attractive to me simply because of the more wholistic approach to everything. I've had the opportunity to train in jujitsu and other things, and sometimes one of the dojo I train in does jujitsu just to emphasize certain points, but I've never felt the need to study something merely because I felt my Okinawan karate was lacking.

Yes, they are the same. The one in the link is written in a more cursive style, while the one in your avatar is more of a text-style.

I think having functional kama is pretty important if you want to understand how to truly use the weapon. While I don't advocate practicing on people, cutting should be practiced on small branches, leaves, grass, cardboard boxes, etc. The kama is meant to slice using the curvature of the blade, as opposed to simply hacking. A lot of people do kata with the kama and simply "hack" at the air as opposed to manipulating them the way they should really be used. Practicing cuts are a good way to see if you are doing it right. Of course, a good instructor would help...

Well, I don't own the videos, so that would be kind of difficult. My instructor has them, and he promised his instructor (whose still alive) not to release them. His instructor (Clarence Lee, former 8th dan under Shuguro Nakazato...wasn't kicked out of the system or anything, he just sort of drifted away) doesn't mind letting a few people see them, but doesn't want it to be all out there. All the same, I'm going to try and see them Thursday, as I've no school (thanks to Veteran's Day...bless all those who have served and who are serving now). I have to coordinate it because he does live 2 hours away from me... I'll tell you my impressions though (I will bring my notebook, at least, and jot some stuff down). Here's some info on Clarence Lee, if you're interested in how he got the tapes: http://www.martialartmasters.org/Official%20Website%20(Hall%20of%20Fame)_files/page0008.htm

Yeah, I spend about 240 dollars a month on gas just driving to class, so I know how you feel... The dues are actually only 20 dollars a month...