JazzKicker

Oh, he sucker punched him on purpose, but the victim fell and hit his head.

As the saying goes, Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. As a practical matter, it depends on how much damage you do. A few years ago I was a juror for an assault & battery case. It was 2 young men who worked at a pizza joint. One, the aggressor, considered himself in charge (though he wasn't the boss), and the other was kind of a slacker. So the bossy kid bullied and hassled the other until it came to blows, and as you might expect, the bully "won" the fight but ended up in trouble. We concluded the defendant was guilty, but it didn't meet the standard of assault & battery. If I remember correctly the charge was reduced to simple assault, and he got a slap on the wrist. On the other hand, there was a case in NJ last year of a bar fight where a guy was killed by a single punch, and the guy who unintentionally did it was charged with manslaughter

When I've had this experience at a traditional school, it was (with one exception) in the same style. I think some of the points you made are valid, though. I also think in the traditional environment there's concerns about hierarchy, loyalty, and organizational politics.

How do you treat someone with prior experience who visits your school to ask about training? I've been in both traditional and non-traditional martial arts for many years, and from time to time I've looked around for a new school. What I've found is, the non-traditional clubs- JKD, boxing, MMA, combatives, are happy to show me around, have me come train. No attitude or suspicion. But visiting commercial, traditional clubs (like my old TSD org, or TKD), once they ask about my experience, it becomes clear I'm not welcome, it's not the place for me.

I'd have to refer to my old manual on the shelf at home for the specifics, but it (and Shin's later book) played up the 3 kingdoms, Hwa Rang, etc. but glossed over the 50's, other than there were multiple styles who's masters agreed to combine into Tae Kwon Do, while Hwang Kee wanted to stay traditional and independent. The chartering of WTSDA was just before my time, but Shin's original organization was the US Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation. Yes, his school was called Shin Karate, but the style was indeed called Tang Soo Do. I think the original one in Burlington is still run by In K. Yu. The later one, in Trenton, moved long ago and is run by one of the senior masters, John Godwin. I trained with many of the Trenton area masters. Early on he had several Korean masters, too, but they all left and formed their own organizations.

I first got involved with World Tang Soo Do back in the mid 80's, after 3 years and a brown belt in Shito-Ryu (which is also pretty close to Shotokan). The forms were practically the same, kicking was the big difference. That, and TSD was less rigid and linear in movement. I was at a college club, and the local Shotokan club was much different in terms of training, more traditional Japanese in structure. At the time I didn't give much thought to the origins or commonality. GM Shin and their black belt manual barely acknowledged Hwang Kee, let alone Shotokan. The book said Tang Soo Do was a 2000 year old Korean martial art! I understand late in life Hwang Kee finally admitted he'd taken the forms from Funakoshi's book.

It's one of the ironies of traditional martial arts, spending lots of time learning stances, drilling them in forms- and in free sparring, not really using them. Worse, if you want to learn to fight, against a (kick)boxer, wrestler, MMA guy, you have to unlearn standing there like a dummy. That said, I've trained with a lot of non-traditional fighters, and they tend to be weak with kicking and balance because they don't have the base of having good stances (even if it's not a deep horse stance!)

Reading the responses I notice that there's a much different perspective from the people who are still reaching for the goal vs. those that made it and been around for a while. I feel bad for the people with the comments about it being stressful, not fun, still not knowing how to fight, exhausting, etc. It doesn't have to be like that. Thinking back, I had a few of those feelings at times, too, and not training for 1rst dan, but 3rd! I'm glad I did it, but when I went on to train in other arts that didn't have belts, or didn't bother much with rank, it was quite freeing. I also saw, in MMA training, people develop into very proficient fighters in 6-12 months training. What I'm getting at is, the meaning of a black belt is more about what you get out of the process of attaining it.

Arguably, overtraining contributed to his death. It's great to be passionate about training and work hard. Just realize martial arts can put a lot of wear and tear on your body, and it has to last the rest of your life. In my 20's and 30's I overdid it with kicking, and was prone to back pain. Eventually I wised up. In my 40's, it was MMA, and we wailed on each other. One day I wondered, are we still going to be doing this on our 50's? Now I'm in my 50's, and dialed back the training before I got hurt. Some of my old (but younger than me!) buddies weren't so lucky. I know guys who've had to get knees surgery, had pins put in bones, etc. So train smart, don't beat yourself up!

I'd forgotten I weighed in early on, but re-reading this thread and subsequent posts, what struck me is that the OP is trying TOO hard, and self-evaluating from one day to the next. Well, this is bound to get you tense and frustrated. Change and improvement come gradually, not linearly- then one day you notice the thing that used to be so difficult, you're doing without thinking. Part of it is, you have to rest and relax, to come back to it fresh.

I used to have a couple of shelves full of martial arts books on various styles, many of which showed up in the forum sticky on this topic. I came to a point in my training where I decided books are mostly useless for actually learning techniques, certainly obsolete with DVD and YouTube. Instructional books, in particular, seemed silly, with photo after photo of facing one way, then another, along with diagrams with footwork, etc. I downsized before a move, and probably half my small library went to friends or ebay, including some fairly collectible texts. It's still fun to look through used book stores for historical treasures, and I've kept a few of those. The books I do find useful these days are philosophical, biographical, or about training methods.

One of the lessons of the (Asian) martial arts is that things aren't necessarily black or white. Yin and Yang are complementary (and there's that pesky little dot of each in the other). People do a lot of things, particularly in traditional martial arts, that aren't practical. Not just techniques, but the whole way of practicing. If you took all that stuff out, it would look like the old footage from Bruce Lee's backyard. For example, I'd be the first to admit that forms are inefficient, impractical, contrived. I still practice them for exercise and moving meditation.

how do you wrap your belt? I know 2 ways: 1) put the middle of it at the center of your waist, wrap it around, tie a square knot. in the back it "crosses over". This was the "beginner" way I used for a long time. 2) Put one end (right side for me) in the small of your back, wrap to your left twice, bring out the first part of the wrap for the other tail to tie. This is neat and avoids the crossover in the back. After it's tied, how much do you have dangling- 4", 8", down to your knees ? mine seem to have shrunk over the years....

The origins and histories of so many martial arts always seem cloudy and confused, poorly documented to downright inaccurate. I've seen arguments, political infighting and even deliberate obscuring even with contemporary arts, when many of the people involved are still alive! As a westerner, I've only seen documented history that goes back to the late 19th century (like Kano, Funakoshi, Usehiba), and this is for homogenous, non-obscure arts. I've heard of older texts such as the "Bubishi"., but I have to wonder, how do you find reliable history when documentation is so often non-existent or wrong?

Correct, many techniques work in theory, against an untrained opponent, or against a partner who's not resisting. A common problem with the way people are taught is they learn all kinds of techniques, but they don't practice them "live" against a resisting opponent. This is why, once you learn basics, you have to move on to combinations, lock flows, etc. The other thing is your opponents "energy" and body type. I remember when I was learning a bunch of Hapkido techniques. I tried showing one on my Tai Chi teacher- it was like grabbing a water balloon, didn't work. Likewise my large wristed TSD teacher. Pressure points didn't work on him, either.

I'll stick to adult black belts that didn't quit as soon as they made 1rst dan- they get my respect and admiration because, regardless of style or even particular aptitude, they stuck with it. For myself, the dan ranks I've earned represent achievement milestones in life, and I'd like to think, reflect what kind of person I am.

Run, don't walk, away! They are wasting your time. If you've already been there 4 years (or just training 4 years) you know better. Don't worry about starting over- you know what you know. A new school will give you the equivalent or appropriate rank once you've been there and they can see your skill level. Of course, if you've only been doing 1% kicking and you go to a reputable TKD school, you may find you're more of a beginner than you realize.

Everybody knows if you reduce or stop training, exercise of any kind, you'll get physically out of shape. Sluggish, inflexible, get winded, etc. Then there's the mental/spiritual side, that (supposedly) differentiates martial arts. The self discipline, etc., that controls anger, reactivity, gives us the Zen attitude to handle stress or conflict. You know, the model of the calm old master. Can you get out of shape this way, too? I think so. I still try to stay fit with solo training and other kinds of exercise, but I've neglected the spiritual, at the same time my life has become more stressful. I'm embarrassed to admit, I came to this realization after getting myself into a "road rage" situation precipitated by the irresponsible behavior of a couple of motorcyclists. I should have just "let it go".

I've found it's better not to burn bridges in life. You may find, after trying bjj for a while, you prefer karate. How you handle the transition depends a bit on your teacher. Is he American, does he run the school like a business? Or is he "old school", with traditional attitudes and notions about loyalty? I still remember my instructor telling me after I made 3rd dan, "What you do with it is up to you", and added, if you want to teach, or try a different style, etc. That was really good advice. I did move on, but came back for black belt classes and to share some of the new things I was learning (like Hapkido techniques).

Using the word "art" implies creativity and self-expression, beyond the mere practical or functional. Art is not a sport, or simple physical activity, though "martial arts" have those as components. For me, martial arts are distinguished by having mental and even spiritual aspects.

Years ago I was looking for a new place to train. I walked into a school and talked to the instructor about "taking lessons", without saying anything about my background. First thing he asked me was "Where do you train now?" Earlier this year I visited a new club when they were having a JKD class. The instructor happily let me join in- it was during the class they started asking, "Hey, where did you train before?"

Setting aside the external factors like job & family, there does come a point where it's time to move on. It's been quite a few years now, but after I tested for 3rd dan in Tang Soo Do, my instructor said something that still sticks with me- "What you do with it is up to you", and we talked about things like, I might open a school, or train in something new. And while I still came for black belt classes periodically, I moved on to Jeet Kune Do and Hapkido. The "breaking away" thing is more political- a friend of mine was a senior instructor in an organization, without naming names, the GM was renowned for teaching pressure point seminars. The GM became increasingly off the deep end with his theories, among other things, and was eventually widely viewed as a charlatan. My friend left, as did others, and he's enjoyed a successful international career in his own right.

I can think of a couple of reasons for being exacting about stances: 1. Forms aesthetic, especially for competing. 2. Developing repeatable, efficient basis for techniques, especially kicks. The people I've trained with that didn't have a traditional background often didn't kick as well (poor or inconsistent balance), and had boxing type stances that left them open to kicks.

Interesting topic. I think it's good perspective to get to know the culture of the country your art is from, at least how it is practiced and viewed there, the history, and relevant terminology. How Americans practice Asian martial arts can be very different. When I first started in Tang Soo Do, it was already pretty Americanized, and eventually all the Korean masters in the association left to start their own organizations- this is a common Korean thing. We learned basic terminology and phrases, some Korean history, and a false narrative of the origins of TSD. Years later I trained in Hapkido, from a native Korean and a founding Grandmaster, and I learned some of the phrases and pronunciation I'd learned were inaccurate. I was also exposed to some of the political infighting and arguments over history and origin stories. Looking for a new place to train as an advanced black belt, I've found American owned schools to be welcoming, but the Koreans were suspicious, and without coming out and saying it, let me know I wasn't welcome. Outside the dojang, I learned some things like, for Koreans starting a business in the US, a Tae Kwon Do school is an option much like a laundry or produce stand. Also, Korean kids start TKD at an early age, but are generally done with it when they reach age 18.

I've kept a training journal for years now. It's a great way to keep track of what's on your mind, training ideas and progress. Over time, you'll see recurring themes, too. I think you're right, relaxation is important. The way to develop power is with focus, and efficient body mechanics. Tension gets in the way of that. When you see a great athlete in any sport, they almost make it look effortless, right? But a beginner in martial arts looks tense, unbalanced, tentative, forced. I wouldn't get too bogged down in minutiae of details, like the "right" way for a foot position or something. Everybody moves a little differently.