MatsuShinshii

I disagree here. I don't think kata is a requirement or prerequisite for a Martial Art. There are many Eastern styles that do train kata, but I don't think the lack thereof means there is no Martial Art. I understand your point of view but I must point out that without Kata, which was and still is the delivery system for passing down the art, you would not have Karate. I understand that some arts are not passed down via Kata, Quan or even set routines. I guess my statement should have been there would be no Karate/Gung Fu without Kata/Quan. My point in fact is arts (lets take some modern day Karate styles) that do not teach Kata or only show their students Kata but do not explain what it is and how to extract the true intent of the art, but instead focus on Kihon (individual techniques such as blocks, strikes and kicks) and Kumite are not passing on the art but only a portion of it. Yes the argument can be made that one can learn the fundamentals through these practices but I argue that they are missing the true intent and the reason they are doing what they are doing. Kihon can only teach so much. Kumite without the foundation and understanding of the applications and how to utilize them will only teach so much. It is the Kata, and what they can and do teach us, that fills in the blanks and shows us what these other practices fall short of. I understand where you are coming from but you show me a Karateka that does not train in Kata and I'll show you a Karateka that fails to have a true understanding in the art. I'll go one step further and say I can show you a Karateka that is lacking in skills and knowledge of all of the applications and weapons available to him. Without Kata you can not IMHO truly have a firm grasp on the art. IMHO I will even go as far as to say without a true understanding of the Kata, one has no chance of mastering the art. This may not be popular with some modern day styles/schools but I have trained with some of these instructors and IMO they are lacking to say the least. Yes they can execute a perfect front snap kick or a back hand but are missing the glue that ties all of these techniques together and gives a broad understanding how to utilize them and when. Kata is like a book and Kihon are some of the individual sentences that make up the book. You have an understanding of what the sentence means but without reading the entire book they are pointless. Not to mention that you totally miss the other sentences such as the "hidden" techniques (Ti, Quan Fa, Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho) that are not readily apparent. Without knowing the order of the sentences the book makes no sense. Do you have an understanding of the individual sentences? Yes. Do you fully understand the art as a whole? No you do not.

Couldn't agree with you more. Have had this done to me and never agreed with or subscribed to the practice.

No. This is why most train in the art. Your strength, agility, and power will improve with training. No fear. Most Karateka are very respectful and are more than willing to help you out. I think it will be an enjoyable experience and I think that after a year you'll look back and see progress. Good luck.

No offense intended Alan. I am pretty new to the forums and do not presume to know everyones or anyones back ground. I was merely pointing out that these principles are still alive and thriving in traditional "old school" dojo's.

They are contained within the Bunkai. They are not lost. Granted a lot of "modern" day schools have turned away from Kata as a means of teaching Deshi how to fight and thus have lost the original intent or the Bunkai. However there are still arts that still teach the old ways and have maintained the original techniques and still teach the original Bunkai or at least most of them. Having said that even strict styles have lost some of the original founders intent. My art traces directly back to Matsumura "Bushi" Sokon and was not changed by the Japanese as Hohan Soken did not join the Japanese organizations or subscribe to the Japanese methods so you would think that it is pure. This is not entirely the case. It is traditional for each Shinshii to put there little twist on the art and even go as far as to rename it as a way of claiming the art under their rule. Having said this the way a punch is executed differs from teacher to teacher on the lesser end of change. Kata and the translation of its techniques is on the higher end of change and has a greater impact on the art itself. There are four instructors between me and the founder. If each tweaked the art that is, at minimal, four small changes. If as I said the translation of Kata or the way it is performed was "tweaked", that is a very large change from the original intent. This I found was the case with about 30% of our Bunkai. This is not the end of the world as I discovered as a Shodan. I was and still am a huge history buff. I sought out instructors of the Chinese styles that history told us made up our art. I was not entirely successful but managed to find a few over the years and was able to learn the original quan that contributed to our Kata in some cases and in others learn the actual Quan that our Kata was name after. By learning the techniques and applications (Bunkai) of the original Quan, I was able to see that we stayed pretty firm to the original intent except for a small percentage of cases. These changes I think are attributed to each of the instructors that took over the art when the instructor who proceeded them passed it down or passed away. They may have favored a version that differed from the one they were taught and incorporated it. This is not a bad thing either since this gives us as Karateka more ways to implement these applications and gives us more responses and choices when attacked. Having said all of this, I do have a point. To get right to it... you do not necessarily have to be studying under an old school style or teacher to discover the hidden applications of your art. There are an absolute myriad of ways to research your style and what contributed to it. The internet, be somewhat cautious as to the information, is a fantastic place to research and even find instructors that teach the original Quan Fa that your art has evolved from. The missing link that you will not find in the Chinese origins is Ti/Di or if your prefer Japanese Te or De. The original Okinawan fighting art which is the foundation of Karate. However this to can be found with a little research. If your style teaches Torite (Tuite), Tegumi and Kyusho you have the first step in unlocking the "hidden" meaning of your Kata. Finding the original applications of these techniques found within the Kata, again can be found with research. The Bubishi is an excellent starting point as well as researching your art and find out what Chinese influences there were. Once you have discovered these Quan Fa you can then find instructors to talk to or you can watch Youtube video's, again be cautious and discriminating as anyone can post a video and claim anything. With the internet you can also research those that have already done the research and buy their books or even contact them directly and they may point you in the right direction. If you're art is Suidi (Shuri-Te) based, I could probably answer a lot of your questions or even point you in the right direction if you practice a Kata I am not familiar with. The point is these techniques and applications are far from gone. Most traditional teachers pass these down to their Deshi, albeit it may not be passed down until one reaches a specified rank, they are still passed down. The real problem is those arts/instructors that think as though they are a first learning the Kata as a Deshi and question why they are learning this when in their mind it will not help them defend themselves. This is because their instructor never passed this knowledge down to them and they did not learn their Kata's Bunkai. And yes the instructors in Okinawa still know and teach the Bunkai. My main art teaches us Bunkai as we learn the Kata. We do not have to worry about the ramifications of teaching children these techniques as we do not teach kids. I studied Matsubayashi Ryu years ago to broaden my knowledge base and found that they do not teach Bunkai until you reach the Yudansha level. I never reached that level due to a busier schedule in life. My point is your art may teach it but it may be reserved for higher ranks. The best person to ask is your teacher. If they do not know, ask your teachers teacher and so on. If you are studying Okinawan Karate someone in your lineage knows these techniques and applications. They may have removed them for reasons they only know. Good luck and let me know if I can be of any help. I don't know if I can answer all your questions but if your of Suidi lineage I may be able to answer most.

Not all Karate style/schools have forgotten these principles. Fine a good traditional (old school) instructor and you will see this being taught.

We condition. Primarily conditioning the bodies weapons with the use of post makiwara (three types) and Jari Bako. However we also utilize ancient weight training methods similar to Goju Ryu practitioners. Chi Ishi, Ishi Sashi, Tetsu Geta, Nigiri Game and Makiage are used for this purpose. Although some are more modern versions due to the fact that some are hard to come by in quantities that would support a class of students. I utilize conditioning in my teachings and strongly believe in conditioning if it is practiced and taught correctly. Practicing it incorrectly can leave the student with damage to the bodies weapons and have the opposite of the intended effect.

Ancient martial arts or Koryu arts were brutal in nature. All MA are brutal in nature. In Karate for example, the Okinawan's did not practice this art as it is practiced today. When Japan got a hold of the art they transformed it to be a peaceful art or "Do". They removed the dangerous elements so as to dumb it down for the general public and for school children. The primary purpose was to make their youth stronger after observing the physical fitness of the Okinawan Karateka. Today it has in some arts been degraded from it's original intent even further and made into a sport and in some cases little more than an after school kindercare for children. However there are some arts that still keep to the traditional teachings. I guess it really depends on what you consider brutal. When I started it was not uncommon to leave the Dojo with a few bruises and occasional broken nose, finger jamb, etc. etc. Was it brutal? Depends on your perspective! I did not think so but then again I grew up in a different time than the kids of today. However the question must be asked... if traditional training was so unsafe, explain MMA. I have to correct you here. Kata does not exist to "tone down" anything. Without Kata, Quan, forms (whatever your art calls them) you would not have Martial arts. This is the problem with the knowledge that is passed down to students today. The masters of old learned how to fight through the Kata. It was not a dance or a way to tone anything down. The dangerous elements that were removed by the Japanese are contained within the Kata. The Kata is the path to self defense. In fact the Kata and their predecessors, Quan, are the combat techniques that were learned on the battle field and neatly packed into a way to remember them and to pass them down. This is Kata. Today's instructors and schools have removed the techniques and practice them separately from the Kata. The Kihon that most practice all in a line come directly from the Kata. The self defense "Torite/Tuite" that is practiced as a stand alone element comes directly from the Kata. The grappling "Tegumi" comes from the Kata. Kumite and it's techniques come from the Kata. Without Kata you have no art and you have no structure for the combative elements of the art.

I highly doubt that the only bows used in Far East Asia were the long bows. I'm no expert, so I could be wrong. Any war derived activity/sport/whatever you want to call it could be considered a martial art. But when I think of martial arts, I think hand to hand combat or very short range weapons such as 6ft bo, sword, etc. Yes the Yumi is long but there are other asian countries that utilized the bow as well that were not long. The flight bow that the mongols used is a very condensed version that sends arrows flying great distances. Then you have the cross bows that the chinese utilized. There are many versions of the Bow in Asian culture.

Of the weapons we learn in Kobudo my favorite comes down to three; Rokushaku Bo - because it is the first weapon we learn and it can be used at long and short distances. Nichogama (Kama) - because it is IMHO the ultimate weapon for use in both defense and offense. Rochin/Timbe - just because I love to use them. Outside of Kobudo weapons, I love the Katana. For modern weapons you can't beat a knife. It is one of the most versatile weapons in that it can be used to cut, slash, thrust and throw. It is easy to conceal and is legal in most states to carry. It is also handy for a myriad of every day jobs. Not like I could carry a staff, sickle, shield and short spear or a sword down the street.

Your first post is as valuable to me as this one, thank you very much for your advice. I do agree there are problems with communication within our Dojo (have examples related to administrative and other stuff, not just on the floor), but on the Dojo floor I don't clearly understand where the line is between the communication being broken and the natural consequences of the traditional teaching style you described above. Chickadee, This is just something that some get comfortable with and some do not. It is not normal for westerners to be taught in this style so some have great difficulty adjusting to it. However I have to say 10 yrs is an extreme case. Most of my life has been under the tutelage of a traditional teacher. Shows once, says very little until you screw up. However if you are diligent in your quest to learn and prove that you are there to learn the dialogue begins to transform and your teacher begins to open up. I think I understand your dilemma based on what I know of traditional teachers and their view point. Old school teachers do not try to impress their students like western teachers do and they also do not just give trust and respect as readily as us westerners. The student has to prove to the teacher that they are there to learn and that the teachers time is not being wasted on them. There is a sort of interview process where the teacher will show something once and if the student does not pick it up they feel as though the student is not pay attention and is really not taking the instruction seriously. Old school teachers also teach by example without a lot of additional oral explanation. If you are more of an auditory learner versus a visual learner you are going to find this style of teaching very challenging. I would ask your teacher to lunch or dinner to talk with them away from the Dojo. I would then explain the difficulties you are having and explain to him that the training is important to you but you feel like your missing out and do not want to lag behind in your training. I get that you are not a full time student but if your attending class three times a week and are still not getting his style there is either something disconnected in your learning or his teaching. If you intend on staying with him you will need to figure this out and by getting him away from the Dojo in a neutral place he may let you know what the problem is. If this does not work, and your not going to like this advise, I would look elsewhere. The traditional teaching style is not for all students. You may need a teacher that spends more time orally explaining versus a one time visual explanation the lesson. He also may feel that you are not serious about the training and after you explain your issues, may change his mind. If this is the case your training will turn around quickly. If not you may need to take a hard look and decide if this school or teacher is best for you. I will say this, if you have been training with someone for ten years and do not understand what is expected of you and your teacher treats you with a mild neglect there is a huge issue. Traditional teachers come off very cold at first. Once you have proven yourself they are still very strict but their demeanor softens and you start to build a relationship with them. You see them as a friend and not a dictator. It sounds to me like you still have not built a trust and friendship with this man after 10 years of training. One of two things are happening. Either he feels that you are not worth the time and effort but still has the hope that you will come around or he feels this way and allows you to attend till you finally decide to quit. If you are serious about staying with him you have to convince him that you are not wasting his time. Show him that you are excited about the training. If a student just goes through the motions (albeit the perception of the instructor due to them not understanding what is expected) I sit down with them and ask if they really want to be here and if they understand what is expected. If they say yes but still do not show it in actions I tell them to leave. My Shinshii wouldn't have given a student the first chance to straighten up. They were told to leave as soon as the lack of enthusiasm was exhibited. It may be just your lack of understanding when it comes to old school mentality. Hopefully this leads you in the right path and you and your Sensei figure this out. Good luck.

I have never heard of Tegumi! See this is what I am talking about. It seems like there are many different sub-styles within a style. I was referring to the fact that, there maybe a Karate style that uses tons of judo techniques. Tegumi is a mixture of Okinawan grappling and Sumo. Some feel that Jujutsu techniques were incorporated as some of the throws, sweeps and take downs are similar in application. The argument for this is that Matsumura Sokon (In our art), while training in Kenjutsu under the Satsuma clan during their occupation of the Ryukyu kingdom,could have easily learned Jujutsu from his teacher or another and incorporated these techniques into the Tegumi curriculum. Considering the Tegumi pre-dates Matsumura, most feel that this is not the case. The truth is no one actually knows since there was very few documents kept from this or earlier time periods about Karate or its influences. There is nothing to base this on nor any proof whatsoever to support this. However you can somewhat make a distinction between the Okinawan grappling/sumo techniques and what are thought to be jujutsu based. There is no correlation to Judo other than Judo was inspired by Jujutsu, which is why they look as if they may be from Judo, but they are not. Karate is generations older than Judo and thus could not contain Judo applications unless a more modern day instructor added them to the curriculum. Unfortunately this happens in today's Dojo's all to often. Because an instructor does not understand or was never taught Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho through the Bunkai of the Kata they tend to add to their art and often pull from other arts not associated with their base art as a means of "improving" the art. As if they know better than generations of time tested applications in actual combat situations. If one where to bother researching their art, as the founders passed it down, they would discover that Karate is the original MMA and has the answers to almost every question in the context of combat and defense. IMHO. What MatsuShinshii excellently speaks towards is a pretty close description of Shindokan, the Okinawan style of Karate-do that I've been training in as well as teaching for 52 years, albeit, with a strong emphasis on Tuite. Sensei8, I am happy to hear that someone else trains in the old ways. We also emphasize Torite/Tuite. Some may say it is the most important part as it teaches us self defense in that it encompasses traps, re-directions, joint locks, hyper-extensions, restraints, submissions, etc. which come from Tode or more specifically Qin Na (Chin Na). Then the are the bone breaks, eye gouge, cheek hooks, throat grabs, strikes, neck cranks, chokes, etc, etc, etc. or more aptly termed now days as dirty boxing which comes from Ti/Di or if you're used to the Japanese terms Te/De. (the Japanese terms are not directed at you Sensei8 but anyone that may not recognize the Hogen terminology.) However we do not separate out Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho. Nor do we separate them from the striking (Tsuki/Zuki), blocking (Uke) and kicking (Geri) techniques. They are taught as a whole. They is taught while learning the Kata and in conjunction with the Bunkai. They also fit in with the stances (Dachi) that are found within the Kata and are shown in conjunction with these stances. For example: the "transitional stances such as the lantern stance in Jutte is an actual application and not just a transitional stance as most think it is. There are four applications of this stance in actual self defense. One of which is and arm lock while applying a neck crank. This actually comes from the Bubushi and has been passed down from the original Quan and hidden within the Kata. These and and many other applications come directly from the Bubushi by way of the book itself, the oral transmission and the direct passing on to the founder from his Chinese Quan Fa and Okinawan Ti teachers. All "hidden"/ "Secret" techniques are contained within the Kata, the Bubushi, and the original Quan that either inspired the Kata or that the Kata directly came from. Once a student is able to comprehend not just the strikes, stances, blocks, and kicks but also are able to apply the "hidden" techniques (Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho) in conjunction the basic Kihon (Strikes, Blocks, Stances and Kicks) in conjunction with the applications (Bunkai) of the Kata, the art becomes a complete form of self defense.

I missed the fact that you said you have been studying under your Sensei for 10 yrs. I take back my original post. If you don't know the etiquette after 10 yrs there is a problem with communication within your Dojo. I knew what was expected right off the bat or within no more than a month. I have trained with very traditional Okinawan teachers and American teachers and have never gone more than a month not knowing what is expected of me as a student. You either learned via by word or by action EXACTLY what was expected very fast. You need to talk to your teacher after or before class and open up the lines of communication with him. I personally think this should have been his responsibility 10 years ago but if you do not know by now it's past time for you to find out. Holy molly! 10 years? Something is definitely missing here.

Sounds like your Sensei was taught by an old school instructor or he is just socially awkward. If he was taught the old school way it is expected that the student pay attention and learn or mimic his teachers directions without questions. The theory is that the student first learn the proper way before an explanation is ever given. If he is just socially awkward you may want to speak with him after class and ask him what he expects in this situation. Another thought is that he may not pay the same attention to you because he knows you already know these drills and expects you to be an example to the other students being that you are senior. I would say that only your Sensei can answer these questions and you should talk to him. Respect is one of the tenants of our art. You should be respectful to him and ask him away from the other students as the answer may not be something he would want shared with them. Having said that he should respect you and give you an answer.

I have never heard of Tegumi! See this is what I am talking about. It seems like there are many different sub-styles within a style. I was referring to the fact that, there maybe a Karate style that uses tons of judo techniques. Tegumi is a mixture of Okinawan grappling and Sumo. Some feel that Jujutsu techniques were incorporated as some of the throws, sweeps and take downs are similar in application. The argument for this is that Matsumura Sokon (In our art), while training in Kenjutsu under the Satsuma clan during their occupation of the Ryukyu kingdom,could have easily learned Jujutsu from his teacher or another and incorporated these techniques into the Tegumi curriculum. Considering the Tegumi pre-dates Matsumura, most feel that this is not the case. The truth is no one actually knows since there was very few documents kept from this or earlier time periods about Karate or its influences. There is nothing to base this on nor any proof whatsoever to support this. However you can somewhat make a distinction between the Okinawan grappling/sumo techniques and what are thought to be jujutsu based. There is no correlation to Judo other than Judo was inspired by Jujutsu, which is why they look as if they may be from Judo, but they are not. Karate is generations older than Judo and thus could not contain Judo applications unless a more modern day instructor added them to the curriculum. Unfortunately this happens in today's Dojo's all to often. Because an instructor does not understand or was never taught Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho through the Bunkai of the Kata they tend to add to their art and often pull from other arts not associated with their base art as a means of "improving" the art. As if they know better than generations of time tested applications in actual combat situations. If one where to bother researching their art, as the founders passed it down, they would discover that Karate is the original MMA and has the answers to almost every question in the context of combat and defense. IMHO.

Yes. The reason is quite simple and can be answered by trying ti the opposite way. If you are right handed it does not work as well leading with you left foot. Your body is out of alignment.

CTTKDKing, I am a little confused about the statement that you are going to be studying the art of the sword and you are looking for a Shinken (live sword) for cutting practice. The reason I am confused is it takes a good year or more before any Iaido or Kenjutsu school, especially a traditional one, will place a live blade in a students hands for Tameshigeri. Typically the student starts with an bokken or iaito to learn how to hold the sword and the proper grip, then they learn to un-sheathe the sword or draw the sword and then the postures, foot work and so on well before a live blade is ever introduced. How long do you have to cross train before you test for your Shodan? Did the school you are joining tell you to buy a Shinken? Sorry, just very confused and worried at the thought of a new student and a live blade hacking away at Goza or Tatami. Not the best idea IMHO.

Speaking of families, I have heard that some family karates that are unknown may incorporate judo and so in a sense they maybe hybrid or they may specialize in developing specific technique and their entire curriculum maybe centered in students repeating that specific technique much like a boxer would his jab. It may be Judo but most likely you are referring to Tegumi. It is similar and has similar throws, sweeps, take downs, etc. but with small differences in the way they are executed and the way it flows in conjunction with strikes, kicks, etc.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Could not agree more.

Being affiliated with an organization/federation has pluses and minus'. I belong to a rather small traditional organization that does not take your pay check for everything we do. However I have belonged to other organizations that charge you for anything and everything. The main point of belonging to an organization is that you have access to higher ranks and thus can continue your journey through the ranks. If you belong to a private school you may only get to a certain level and you have to stay there or leave and join another school because your instructor is only of a certain rank/knowledge. If you belong to a tight based community that supports each other I see it as a benefit. If the contrary is the case I would rather go it alone. And no I do not look down on those not affiliated with a federation. To be honest I look down on some federations due to their practices, McDojoish and pure business with little concentration on producing good Karateka and all emphasis on making as much as possible before their students figure it out. I look down on those that invent more belts/ranks or create new techniques not found in their art to be able to charge money and only for the sake of money. I do not look down upon an individual that strikes out due to the issues I have listed above. Having a federation/organization benefits the instructor and their students if their main focus is on passing on the art.

Matsumura Shorin Ryu - Rokudan Ryukyu Kobudo - Yondan Ryukyu Kenpo - Nidan Matsubayashi Ryu - Sankyu Judo - Yonkyu

I don't subscribe to time in grade requirements. We all learn at different rates and some have natural skill and other do not and require more time to develop said skill. If anything this is more of a guide than anything else. Something to gauge an individuals progress. The thought that because I have trained for 7 years automatically dictates that I be afforded the opportunity to test for Shodan is a farce at best. I have seen students that were ready to test for Shodan after four years of training and others that were not ready after 8 years of training. Our organization states that time in grade for Shodan is 5 years minimal and 7 years normal time in grade. This is nothing more than a guide. No one person is built the same way, has the same intelligence or has the same physical ability. Why then would time in grade mean anything? Take myself for example; I have passed on promotions/tests because I was not ready and have been passed up on tests because I was not ready. To have a set time frame is not practical unless you are teaching carbon copy clones.

Well said and I could agree more.

You all have basically mirrored my thoughts on this subject. I have a hard time understanding why some schools have strayed away from teaching what I consider the very foundation of the art. For me the Kata is the art. When I began we did not stand in a line and perform Kihon drills. We practiced Kata. Back then they would wait until you had reached a specific rank before teaching you the "hidden techniques" LOL! (unfortunately some think these are hidden because they are not taught) But it would all tie together and you would quickly realize that everything you ever needed to deal with almost any situation was contained within the Kata. Now we are like most and have Kihon drills. However we still teach Torite, Tegumi and Kyusho as the student learns the Kata and as a part of the Kata. The student learns to break down the Kata into it's various techniques and to utilize them based on the teachings handed down from the founder. Once they have a good grasp on the fundamentals and original intent they can then analyze these techniques and apply them to other scenario's. I have yet to find a situation that our Kata and it's Bunkai do not address. Having said that I do not feel that I would ever need to join a MMA gym to learn what can be found within the Kata. Nothing against MMA, just do not understand why instructors would loose students to MMA gyms if they are teaching the core content of their system. No reason to look elsewhere IMHO.

Uechi Ryu is nothing like Shotokan or Kyokushin. From what little I know of Uechi Ryu it is based on a Chinese style called Pangai-noon. Where many styles of Karate were influenced by White Crane boxing, Arhat (Monk) boxing and Five Ancestors boxing, Uechi-Ryu is base on Tiger boxing. It may have elements of other Quan Fa but from what I have read it is primarily based on Tiger Quan Fa. I have no idea what style. Hope this helps. I have never heard of Shohei Ryu and no literally nothing about it.