wildbourgman

I like what I've seen from RIck Hotton and Steven Ubl. I wish shotokan would have had more folks like them when I was younger.

I want to sorrowfully inform all that Isao Kise the president of the All Okinawan Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito Kenshin Kan Karate and Kobudo Federation has passed away. He is the son of Grand Master Kise Fusei and was his designated successor. Kaicho Kise held the rank of Ju Dan, 10th degree Black Belt. He was born July 27, 1957.

I have trained multiple ways to perform the punching techniques for example. Trained by multiple instructors from multiple styles that said their way was correct. I don't agree with that. I treat it as separate techniques for separate situations and applications. If I am in close quarters and I want less exposure to risk I will do a reverse punch more like you would see from Kung Fu, where I can stay in contact (frame) and then blend into grappling if that opportunity presents itself especially as I get older, slower, and less powerful. On the other hand, if the situation allows me to perform a reverse punch from distance with power generated from the ground up using hip and shoulder rotation to end a fight directly, I want that ability also. So, I train both as separate techniques for separate situations and as I age, I train to get into the situation that's more advantageous, appropriate and realistic for my current skill set.

Strickly working from memory I think the I remember the JKA group on the West Coast (USA) having even further directives than this that pertained to any outside official training. I personally don't like it. It seems like they feel threatened for some reason, and I can point to some JKA leaders that do cross train publicly with no apparent punishment, so I'm not sure about the memo having any teeth or equal justice for all members.

I don't think that this is a new worry. I hope that this fear, which I share, is just a result of me not being aware of the breadth of practice for our system(s). Just recently I've met a lot of people who are Matsumura-Seito from all over the place. It gives me hope that the system isn't as small as I originally thought. I've done a little research of the other "Klans" in the Matsumura system. I don't see them having the same amount of material such as free hand katas for example. Also, some such as SMOKA group seem to rail against adding to or amending what they were originally taught. I have mixed feelings about all of that. With my time in Shotokan from the 1980's, we did the opposite of that. We mastered a limited scope to the point it became boring for some and relegated you to mostly striking. Matsumura is kind of like an MMA gym less the depth of ground fighting but add the entire Okinawan scope of weapons. Even the above average practitioner doesn't efficiently master multiple disciplines. I'm so sorry for derailing this thread but I think it's good content.

I''ll bring it back just a little bushido_man, seisan is one of my test kata. I have two free hand kata, two weapons kata, one step sparring for my rank, basics for three different weapons, fight drills with one of the weapons, tuite (locks and grappling) for my rank and everything for each of those sections for all the other ranks before, many of which have been added to or updated since I first originally learned it. THEY ARE CERTIANLY NOT GIVING AWAY BLACK BELTS ANYMORE (if they ever did). On the flip side I do worry that the majority folks with other concerns or interest will never physically or mentally master our style or simply not try due to being overwhelmed. Then who will be able to pass on the material that from what I see is only deeply known by a smaller and smaller group of people. As far as seisan I really like the kata and its deep history.

I also train in the Kise group. From what I understand Kise brought in things that came from his time in Shorinji and that may be where Seisan was mixed in to his version of Matsumura. There are other kata that he brought in. As far as giving "BB's like confetti", that's over. From what I can tell there was a focused and deliberate effort to make certain those things would not continue in the last five years or so. If I had any issue at all its that the syllabus (for lack of a better term) is too robust for the average person with a normal life (I.E. work, family, other hobbies). I think we may see even more additions now that Master Kise's son has taken over the group. It's a lot of information. In Shotokan they call Seisan Hangetsu.

I agree with Spartacus. In my view the definition of 1st dan black belt is one that has mastered and can teach the basics and the fundamentals to his or her level. That's it. Ist Dan black belt is closer to the beginning of the journey than the end.

Sure you can come up with your own style you just need to be up front about that with your customers and yourself. What I have a serious problem with is people that are not truthful about their style and claim lineage that's not real. If you don't know the meaning already, look into Shu Ha Ri. If you are getting to the Ri stage of this progression you should think about taking the journey on whatever path you want. In saying that you don't really have to ever turn your back on the Shu and Ha stages either.

If you are into Jesse Enkamp he has a recent youtube video that actually makes some closer connections of the Shotokan that we see today to Savate from France. He also shows many connections (for Karate in general) in other videos to China. Now some later connections to China can be seen from Shotokan pioneers like Tetsuhiko Asai and others. It would be much easier to find the Shotokan connections to China by first looking at Shotokan's connection to Okinawa. Then to find the Chinese connections to the Masters that instructed Funakoshi.

Well that's the beauty of using your fingers. You can even use your fingers as a striking nukite, then fail and use it as a grab. To me that makes it a little less high risk. One thing I didn't bring up is the way that Uechi-Ryū works with open hands from the beginning as opposed to other styles that start utilizing that once a student becomes a higher rank. I don't totally agree with that stance, but if you look at professional sports you see where open hands from the beginning is very effective training. I do understand that nukite and open handed fighting is not exactly that same thing but I think its close enough for me to illustrate the effectiveness. My example is look at MMA or boxing where these athletes are trained and conditions to the highest standards and an open hand eye poke shuts everything down. Wow, these top flight trained fighters are completely shut down by an eye poke. That sure makes Uechi Ryu's use of the opened hand look like the right way.

The ability to successfully use nukite is like anything else, you get what you put into it. To me its more of a high level technique because it takes accuracy, body (hand and finger) conditioning and knowledge of anatomy in order to properly deploy this as a weapon. The science behind it is pretty simple and undeniable. If you focus a certain amount of force to a smaller cross sectional area as opposed to a larger one you get more pounds per square inch to the affected area. During my career I operated high pressure triplex pumps. If the operation called for more pressure to be applied I would use a smaller plunger (piston) while using the same exact horse power engine. That change in itself would deliver higher pressure using the same horsepower. Now think about that example with the human body and think about aging martial arts masters. How do you keep or even increase power with the same or even decreasing horsepower as you age? You gain skill and knowledge, you use science of body mechanics, the anatomy and general engineering. PS, I didn't even mention that you also gain several inches of reach on your opponent instantly.

One of the coolest things I learned once I transitioned from Shotokan to Shorin Ryu were the bunkai options where Heian Shodan (Pinan Nidan) has throws. Also the instances where the blocks are actually strikes or even the entry move to a throw as well as some grappling opportunities.

I've researched some of this on my own and had discussions with higher ranking students about some of the issues in our lineage. The main legitimate issues seem to be. 1. Changes made to the style. 2. People claiming rank that they may not have completely deserved or earned on the floor. 3. Money issues. 4. Multiple claims of sole possession of the style after Hohan Soken died.. Personally I think this is sad and I wish they could come together at least periodically and get over this. For example I would love to see a once every 4 or 5 year camp of the Matsumura Seito offshoots. Then again there are some issues such as complete charlatans trying to claim or exaggerate connections to Hohan Soken that never existed or barely existed. I heard there are multiple people who received Certificates of Attendance to seminars or camps that turn the certificate or claimed it was a rank that they tested for.

I think I know one of the people that you are speaking of in the first comment. Other than the thousands of word he has posted disparaging his contemporaries he does have some really good insight into a certain timeframe of Matsumura seito. I've heard some of this stuff from others too and its just family squabbling to me. Some of it is that these folks seem to have an orthodoxy akin to religion. I've seen this with Shotokan too. Anyone that differs from what Hohan Soken taught is instantly thought of as an apostate. I think they should look at the Shu Ha Ri concept. That's what I see happening to my sector of the Matsumura group and its been happening for generations. Some of the latest variations are really good and some of the others not so much, but overall I'm going to make out of my journey what I want.

I had noticed this too in the United states when I decided to join the JKA after many years of not being part of any organization. The JKA west coast, Northeast and Southern areas all had slightly different grading structures. For instance in the Southern United States as far as I know they were not even teaching Taikyoko Shodan.

Normally I'm a believer in less bureaucracy but on this subject I can see why this topic could press some hot buttons and make some want regulation. I'll just throw this out there for consideration. I live in a small rural town and we have one style that has two 10th dan karate instructors. These instructors also have mid to high level dan rankings 6 other marital arts styles and all these rankings came from the same instructor as far as I can tell. Now in my opinion if your small town has multiple residents with 10th dans in Karate you'd better be living in Naha. Other than that some scrutiny is warranted to say the least.

I understand now and I agree. I do see that more Shotokan practitioners are looking for the answers probably because they were not able to mature in a sport driven style especially as older adults. The popularity in instructors like Ian Abernethy and to a lesser extent Steve Ubl show this, as well as the Japanese JKA instructors openly cross training in Okinawa and China. Most of my training in Shotokan was under instructors that were still active competitors in Sport Karate at a very high level and I think that has a lot to do with the type of training they give students. Also the direct lineage could have an affect on ones Shotokan practice. For instance, three contemporaries Kanazawa, Takayuki Mikami and Tetsuhiko Asai all had similar beginnings and were fierce competitors but only one of them had continued on a more narrow competition based direction. Depending on which one you came from could certainly affect ones outlook. In saying that all three men seemed to teach a style that depended on timing, speed and general athleticism all of which wain as you grow old. That is why I'm very satisfied with my move to Shorin Ryu but I certainly appreciate the power, discipline and skill that it takes to be a serious Shotokan karateka.

This is funny because I am a Shodan in JKA Shotokan (my first style) and a 2nd Kyu in Shorin Ryu my current style. I would possibly ask you how do you believe that Okinawan martial arts are specialist? I see it very differently. In my time with Shotokan we learned striking mostly at distance. In my time in Shorin Ryu we train striking at multiple distances, grappling, throws, and kobudo with multiple weapons, as will as grappling with those weapons. I've heard Okinawan martial arts described as the original MMA. Our syllabus is actually too varied for the average hobbyist practitioner its certainly not specialized.

I'm fairly confident my training gives me the awareness of my limitations, which in turn normally keeps me from putting myself in situations where I would get jumped by three knuckleheads. Now if that situation would arise also because of self awareness attained through training tells me the first goal it to do things that would help me "not die". Its not about trying to look like Bruce Lee, its about trying to remain conscious and keep my hospital stay to a minimum. That at my age is victory against three young strong assailants intent on doing me harm, anything beyond that is great. A story I might have posted before can possibly further explain this. At the dojo I train at we had a new white belt. He was a mid fifties, smoker, out of shape guy that had always wanted to try karate. We were watching two teenaged blackbelts train and he asked me "how long until I look like that?". I laughed and then realized this guy was serious. I wanted to ask him if he had a time machine! What I told him was that his expectations should be set a little differently. First his training would allow him to see and feel in a safe environment the difference between himself and someone that was young, strong, and fast. That knowledge would give him the aforementioned self awareness that would hopefully keep him from putting himself in harms way. Secondly I told him that at his skill level his goals in an actual confrontation would be to stay conscious until help arrived. Finally I told him that at our age we were in a race to gain skill as physical aspects diminished. That process takes even more discipline and commitment than the teenagers we watched had possessed. I think he trained with us another week before quitting.

I think there is a good chance we are mostly talking around one another and comparing apples and oranges. I think traditional Okinawan and Japanese martial arts where you start from a very different perspective is not the same as MMA and/or Self Defense combative training. This same conversation could and has been had over many aspects of Karate training from kihon to kata and everything in between. For instance I've heard the same argument about point sparring (which is not traditional in my opinion) and I agree on some aspects of the criticism, but you are not practicing for a Road House bar fight scenario in Ippon kumite. What you do get from it especially in Shotokan karate is one punch or kick power with precision without being hit by your opponent. Did Lyoto Machida stop at his Shotokan Karate training once he decided to go to MMA ? No but he did often utilize the skills he honed of decades of training that began with Kihon, Kata, step sparring and Ippon kumite. I think the discussion we are having is like comparing a Japanese tea ceremony to stopping at the 7 Eleven and grabbing a big gulp. Sure one way is quenches your thirst faster and is more efficient, but they are not comparable. One utilizes skills that are only appreciated after being honed with dedication and patience to an age old art and the other does not. To me both absolutely have their place but they should not be compared as the same thing.

As I alluded to some of this is also about tradition and an organizations syllabus. If you want to teach under certain organizational banner you must teach that syllabus at a minimum, but you are more than free to add on. For many of us that is certainly a factor on some things we do. One other thing is that is it possible that we are not seeing the full benefit that was intended? How many times has this been said about kata or certain katas and then you have someone like Ian Abernethy breakdown and explain the moves that people performed like a dance routine for years?

The process you describe can just as easily be done with drills that use realistic attacks and defenses, with sound tactics. That's kind of my point--the drills I'm talking about don't do anything that another drill can't do better. I understand what your saying but to avoid being repetitive I think class size and venue and using common well known drills has its place especially in large organizations. For instance on the JKA as well as the Shorin Ryu federation I'm in I can go to a seminar and perform one step drills exactly like I do in my home dojo with someone that doesn't speak my language and that I've never met before with no instruction. We know the same drills because its part of the syllabus. Now at our home dojo or during other portions of the same seminar we might do some more realistic self defense drills that takes more explanation. Also there is certainly some tradition there too, if Hohen Soken or Gichin Funakoshi wanted us to practice a certain kata or a certain way of step sparring and I want to be in that association I can do it or find another group.

Wastander, I would say that if you have people doing this type of training when its well below their skill level, then yes it's pretty much useless at some point. I would say its beginner work. You first take a student that's never struck anyone effectively and never received anyone's strike effectively and bring them up to perfect the initial basic steps. That's being prudent and patient as an instructor and as a student. You grow from there. We had a new student at our dojo that was around 55 years old and never trained in anything especially martial arts. He asked me "how long before I can look like those two guys over there?" Those guys over there were two shodans that were 18 years old. I laughed, but he was serious. I told him that his training would help him in multiple ways but that wasn't realistic. I told him just the self awareness he would gain from seeing and feeling the difference between the shodans and himself would help him. If it made him understand that people in his shape and level should retreat and/or avoid situations because you now understand who you are, that's a victory for his current level. On the next level If you can avoid being knocked unconscious until help arrives that's the victory for that level and so on..... In saying that, step sparring is for a certain level and some students need that more than others. You as an instructor have to decide when they move up to something more practical.