Hawkmoon

That's a side to the discussion I'd not expected! This Ryu is different to that Ryu as the other Ryu is different form the Ryu over there because.....blah ...blah....I think we all get that and understand, but ..... the same Ryu in a different organization differs? Really? Kinda of surprised and confused by that!

Yes that was what I should have said, evaluate what is important and retain! A much better of saying it! Thank you! The second part of what you say , sorry not wanting to take lighten the thread to much, but guns...reminds me of: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_23

23/10 100 push ups across 4hr session 100 sit ups across 4hr session 100+ squats across 4hr session 100+ 'burpees' across 4hr session 100+ leg lifts across 4hr session First set/round as per excessive done for one min each as a set. Then body and leg conditioning. one min Full power bag work - punches one min next 1 bout knockdown - one min Second set/round as per excessive done for one min each as a set. Then body and leg conditioning. one min Full power bag work - punches one min next 1 bout knockdown - one min Third set/ round as per excessive done for one min each as a set. Then body and leg conditioning. one min Full power bag work - punches one min next 1 bout knockdown - one min

Correct, to a degree, the bounce is 'hiding' what you are doing (hopefully). It serves to confuse as much as it serves to set up a rhythm that could be used to draw your opponent in for your next attack! A thing to keep in mind is if you move do so with a reason or with purpose to move around for the sake of it is a waste of time and more importantly energy. Everyone has a tell or three (no exceptions). That thing a fighter learns the more they fight different people what ever the tell is that it offers a a little advanced warning about what is about to happen! karate is not alone in this, all fighting sports work on this. e.g boxing, judo..etc No matter how good we are, how good we think we are, we all have the same tells, to lesser or greater degree and effect but we all have them. We work to reduce them as much as we can, we train to hide them, the bounce is an easy one to do and one that helps mostly, but can add a collection of its own new tells. We learn what the tell is, and react as best we can, or as we have learnt.

ah! cool thanks! Placed my vote! ..and yes for pretty much the same reasons posted here!

Ouch! thanks for the clarification. (Done that myself with Sanchin kata....got a massive dressing done for it as well!) So a fundamental mistake, performed at the start of the kata.... ...he wins 4-1! At that level of competitions, a win is not what I would expect to see! Nerves 100% have a role to play in any contest, no matter what the level. Rules are set and a competitor is expected to follow them...a win no sorry not liking that at all and defiantly not with that margin.

...sorry not worked with either style and have no idea what either kata is or should look like when performed. I get that a mistake was made as the judges appeared to have spotted at the end of both performances, but what exactly the mistake was...sorry I'm lost! The judges reaction tells me some aspect of the thee first three steps/movements of his performance.... Sorry need help here, what was done and what should have been done please?

I agree, I visit multiple schools that I have spoken to over the years and they call me up inviting me to train. If I agree to train there one day I politely ask what rules and traditions they have. Most of the time it isn't any different to where I train but 5 of the schools I visited had a different way of speaking to instructors and how they bow in. ..... yes, exactly what i found when encouraged to visit other dojos as I was invited to train at other dojos. For the most part all had a series of formal behavior and greetings and actions in and around the dojo and senior ranks not unlike the 'ways' I had been taught in my Ryu of karate. Sure yes I bowed differently, I also did kihon differently and more often than not fought differently. (and so the reason for the invite I guess)....but... ...to take this 'literally' then no, I can't say i agree with that idea. I see tradition as more than just that a collection of actions and formal behavior we are taught. I see tradition as being things that are retained over time by people involved in that 'world' or 'environment'. A way of demonstrating/showing membership to this or that group, its what makes you or it different to the others. ....but you don't mean that do you? You mean that as more ideological than literally. A journey is what you make of it, so to say the tradition of moving from one thing to another in 'that venture' the progression is yours alone, yes totally understand and yes support that ideal....but ..but I'll ask, by any definition isn't that actually evolution? How this or that Ryu came about in the first place?

(I understand that we can do this search as well) can you add a couple of links to videos (Youtube) showing these Kata, and maybe add you views on what was good, ok or bad about each in your opinion? We'll get a feeling of what you are asking and how you thing about these katas.

Yep! that's the one I had .... sadly I was a Quake head in them days so I only fired it up a couple of times! Shame really it was great fun when I did start it up but the desire to run around in Q2 was to great so I'd soon unload it and go back killing Stroggs! that was much more fun to me back then! LOL!

21/10 200 push ups across 4hr session 200 sit ups across 4hr session 200+ squats across 4hr session 200+ 'burpees' across 4hr session 200+ leg lifts across 4hr session First round as per excessive done for one min each as a set. Then body and leg conditioning. one min Full power bag work - punches one min next 1 bout knockdown - one min rest 30 sec second round as per excessive done for two min each as a set. Then body and leg conditioning. two min Full power bag work - punches two min next 1 bout knockdown - two min rest 30 sec Third round as per excessive done for three min each as a set. Then body and leg conditioning. three min Full power bag work - punches three min next 1 bout knockdown - three min rest one min. rest of the night dedicated to knockdown bouts.

top game! That reminds me ... Shogun Total War awesome game loved that ..... I so need to get a copy of that ...for old times sake!

Now that I understand! ':D' kata is not a series of moves strung together and 'done' as if by a robot. step , action shape, step stance, shape punch..bang bang bang...blah blah and so on and so forth. kata is a series of moves that change/flow from one to another effortlessly. Each stance, arm/leg movement (kihon-basic) 'hit' with perfection to then move into the next movement etc. The active phrase in what you say is 'performance', kata is just that, you perform the kata as taught you perform the kata to show, demonstrate to others what was taught, what you recount from that teaching. To change the playing field here. Dance Swan lake, is done as it has always been taught, different costumes, but the story remains the same the dancers all move in time with each other to maintain the pace and direction of the story, of the performance. They don't put on 'Korn' latest album and run about on stage waiting for the other dancer to then throw them up in the air and then run to the next spot...whilst the other dancer cashes to to the floor. Street dancer groups all work in a group each has an 'q' and a sequence to perform at the correct tempo to fit with the others as the music is playing helping them keep together and act as if one they keep the tempo matched to the music and each other. MA, and so kata to me is the same, we all do what our Ryu says but we all do kata (within our respective Ryu) the same. This to me must mean there is a tempo that we keep, and this is something we show in our performances for example at grading, how? No one in a grading goes like a steam train, everyone in a grading will tend to complete the demonstration to within a second or two of everyone else. EDIT - 23/10 This thread points toa mistake made in a performance of a kata. the judges do see the mistake and do discuss it and go on to awards etc etc. http://www.karateforums.com/antonio-diaz-ven-mistake-vt45757.html The kata (as not an expert in kata) looks to clearly run at a clearly defined set tempo and speed, the demonstrator is not running away at light speed, as they are not stop - start - stop - start....and so on. (In my ignorance) this allows the judges to spot the apparent only mistake...

Agreed! Top post! there is no amount of money or volume of material possessions that make giving your life for worth while. Both things can be got back the next day, week, month. That life token once used, that's it game over! Defending you and yours in a situation that is clearly going to end badly for some one...make sure there is no grey area in your next actions or the results of your actions! As the saying goes don't take a knife to a gun fight. But then it's better to not take weapon at all! .... less to explain the next day!

Agreed! Whole heatedly! .. to step away form kyokushins mind set as it were for a moment. Yes perfect its what I believe in positive reinforcement is a great asset and tool to get the best results form a person or group. However, direct aggressive direction to a person of group also gives results, put simply some people are wired that way! All of this I get and agree with, have no doubt on that . What I struggle with is what I consider outright insults! Tonight I'll be returning to the dojo after a week from training whilst I rested my ankle, I expect a flurry of comments as a result. It will be in fun and so on, but insults for insults sake (keeping the drive of thread in mind) to me appear to be a big sign/signal of a person missing a few people skills, if it is negative to me or not, it will have an effect on others. This thread stems from my interest in what others do to get the best out of others. I want to understand if my reaction to the comments (the staying away and not working with them) was to be expected, did I over react, could I have acted in a better way to the situation, should I have acted differently? ? ? As I mentioned I could see the effect on the others it was having and I wanted no part of it, to extend on that I also mean the others in the area and not just the other guy. There is always a bad egg maybe two in any group (MA, football, boxing etc etc), or at the least someone who is border line so to return the the Kyokushin mind set, 'to push to endure', I'm trying to settle in my mind if that is a correct understanding or a perversion of that thought process... ..I cannot help but thing its a perversion, hence this thread !

hehehe..! Completed MW3 the other day, looking to load Battlefield 3 next However, I am currently getting pressure form the X-Box Grand master (all nine years of him) to load Skyrim! Else I'm playing any of the NFS games I have! Most Wanted being the favorite at the mo!

(consider) hmmm...... ..... so if one student out of three undergoing a grading goes off like a rocket and the guy next to him and the guy next to him go off at different speeds.....everyone can see each mistake in posture hand position and shape etc across all three? or ....if one student out of three undergoing a grading goes off like a rocket and the guy next to him and the guy next to him go off at different speeds the guy who finished first fails or passes as the other fail or pass because the speed was wrong?

I offer it may serve you better to have no set limits to the count, but rather the 'count' is set as needed to fit the crime.. Giggling get a lower count then say heavy contact because "he said ...." etc etc

take your time, no rush, accuracy and confidence is what you are building initially. Once they are good, and the first few items you go for it, they will take a knock or two as you hit or kick stuff or feel that you might hit something and stop to check. As you get better at getting a picture the space you are in, with practice you will develop a better understanding a greater feeling for what the inner ear, your mind tells you. Good luck and have fun!

[Please don't confuse my interest in kata tempo with some apparent desire to impose a time measurement to ALL Kata. no no no no not the point here.] What I'm interested in is based on comments I have read here, and my own experiences in other dojos. Corrections, tellings off for doing this or that to quick or not quickly enough. It appears to me the Ryu (yes the instructor to a degree) but mainly the Ryu drives the speed a kata is performed at. example: Pinan sono ni, when performing this kata in one dojo using my kihon the correction were hand position and so on, in one dojo (Shotokan) the fact I was slower than the class was called out, in another dojo (Wado) I was corrected on hand placement again etc and that I was to fast this time! Hence my interest, it seems to me that there is a tempo of some kind of some sort, it comes from somewhere, and I'm of the opinion its from the Kata itself.

In this modern world we've realized that a child who shows an ability in sport, if encouraged to do more in that sport (a child prodigy) can go on to become one of the greatest ever! This has only been done as a main stream serious science since about the mid 80's. Funakoshi & Itosu were way WAY ahead of there time they were doing this back in the 20's if not earlier! Sorry but to say they were in some way partly (however small) to blame, no I don't see it. They were giants of there time, and had real vision to understand the need to nurture the student from an early age to be the best they could be. Sadly as it was the mystery that shrouded MA, and event the desire to protect MA from outside influence didn't help the situation. By the time the teachings and true meaning of MA was starting to be understood and even taught correctly the damage was done. We in the western world, well we had no understanding of what this was, as the far east hadn't a complete understanding of how the western world adopted ideals from other cultures and so the imaginations of the western mind simply went nuts! (Superpowers...seriously!) The 'boom' period well this was the 60' and 70's but by the 80's MA was in decline. Like any new 'thing' there is a massive surge of interest and then it calms down, settles and reaches what will become it normal level of acceptance in society and it moves on from there. Think about it for a moment we all (I do assume but feel I'm 100% correct) have had a comment or jibe, insult, jokes made or thrown at us because we wear baggy PJs or silk suits, make funny sounds and bow a lot to each other? We ignore these as a lack of understanding on the other persons part. (maybe we even mutter to ourselves: Whatever, or get over it) I've an incident that drives my frustration about the way MA is viewed, it relates to the punch of all things, or rather the moment of focus applied to the punch/strike. The incident was a about the 80's and the guy I was speaking with had become aware of what I did in my free time and decided to instruct me in the secret way of the punch. No matter how hard I argued, showed or demonstrated the science of the movement I could not break his mind set that there was no secret mystical energy that was being called upon! He was in his mid 20's well educated but he still had this idea that there was a magical power involved! As I say the damage was done Hollywood had 'won', superman was real and MA had been discovered to NOT be the way to become him! (Edit to correct grammar)

Well said. The difference between the modern MA that is taught today (sport karate for example) and the traditional MA. The more diverse an art the more diverse the type of fighter you can come into contact with. Some 'schools' teach fight, fight for points to fight for sport. Other schools teach fight , fight to stop the attacker, fight to win! Its as much I guess to with the law of the land as it is to do with the teachings, some dojos have no concept of anything other than there art. They take it a matter of pride to be them and be all that they can be. Others want to learn the best bits of any art and make it there own. There is no harm in any approach, it is and always will be down to the student.

hehehe ...I hear that, as a Kyokushin student when I have visited other dojos (any ryu) the instructors do act different towards me! I notice thsi sometimes with soem ease as the other students start to frown or question why this or that 'today when it should be the other' (some any way) when they get a chance point out the 'extra' focus, smile and knuckle down, and choose to work with me, other keep there distance. What I noted from any dojo or system is no matter what you are able to do, no matter what you discover you can do, it is fact that you will ache in places you didn't know you had. Its as much to do with the extra work put to you as the work your body is not used to doing! I mean when was the last time you stood at all, let along for any length of time in a long formal stance. When was the last time you went form one side of the room to the other kicking your legs at head height...just to get tot eh other side. In time and with practice this will become easy even second nature, seriously enjoy it see what it it is teaching you, enjoy! have fun!

Yes! Years ago for all of my ability and wins in competition I was still only a small,thin, slight, skinny...(you get the idea) guy. This only created a poor self image of breakable specifically at close range. I took up Ju-Jitsu to fill the gap to build my close quarter ability, it helped a little but the drain on me and my time was great ..something had to give...ju-Jitsu was dropped eventually. For me to fight at 'full contact' was something I really couldn't do the pain memory was to much for me, the result was I had no desire do fight at this level. As I got older I started to realize I was not so skinny anymore, but at this point the 'damage was done' the memory was much more in my mind than ever before.

(Sorry a passion driven post, one written as my honest opinion, on things we have seen/watched & witnessed.) When did MA become a kid thing? To me, to be honest that happened soon after Hollywood got on the band wagon and decided it new best and so had us watching what it decided was the real thing! "That" action figure punching his way through a steel door! An episode of "The six million Dollar man" back in the 70's, or the hero who jumps from one tree(or wall) to another to get to the top ...pick any Fung-Fu film! Not forgetting TMNT and the like that came about, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter all with the sudden appearance of super powers..... (...an extension of board breaking!) The list of things the silver screen or worse that grey box in the corner, made MA appear as if a joke to the grown up mind. To this and possibly as important if not more so is the massive success MA had in the early days, a little like the .com boom and collapse, but to me honestly the worst thing is what MA did to itself! Not this or that ART (MA) directly rather the students and demonstrations of there ability ..... edit....edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hydrick The fact that a person claims to have magical powers.......seriously! Lets not forget 'He-Man' no not the cartoon character, the guy who's walking around this or that tournament that 'bigs' himself up and even stands an inch taller to impress a pretty girl .... so that's humility out the window then, 'MA - 101' = do not show off! MA is not about any of this, it never was! In the early days it was in its ignorance, and a certain amount of immaturity simply showing us and the world what it could teach you! No one really understood how a stack of wood was broken and so MA was shrouded in mystery. After the boom period the mystery was gone, the supermen had been debunked and all that was left was the impression Hollywood left on the children. Rant over. sorry I feel it had to be said.