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Out of interest, what reasons do you have for wanting to do this?

Thanks. If you agree with the above i guess that begs the question, why do you continue to train with your school if it doesnt offer those things?

1. Aikido 2. 2 styles of Karate. 3. Boxing. Currently not training in martial arts. Train at home doing various things with the goals of self defence, fitness and strength. Im finding i can achieve a much better workout etc from the training i am doing now. Boxing was good(although the school was competition focused so the trainer didnt want much to do with you if you didnt want to compete), but the other martial arts didnt have much to offer me in achieving my goals.

Thats a fairly common experience within alot of martial arts schools, including the one i used to train at. The way i see it, taking your case has an example, when you go there you are learning how to be good at tkd, you are not necissarily learning how to be good at fighting or good at self defence. (some things carry over obviously). In the majority of cases people can learn a large number of kata and then only every few lessons or at special "self defence" classes that a school holds once every blue moon will you work on the application, and this training rarely goes past doing a technique a few times against a complient "opponent". The "techniques over tactics" mentality is fairly common also. Schools teach their students large numbers of techniques and large numbers of kata and promote them for knowing more. Unfortunatly more techniques usually doesnt mean your better at defending yourself, it simply means that your better at tkd (or the art you do). Very little time is spend on application of technique, pre fight awareness, passive stances, de-escillation techniques, pre-emptive strikes, dealing with the adrenaline dump, dealing with the possibilty of post traumatic stress, how to deal with police if they become involved, the possibility of revenge attacks etc etc. Often the above is just mentioned briefly in class, but rarely is time set aside to train it.

The important thing is to make sure your technique is good first, like others have said. With punching make sure: 1. your fist is formed correctly 2. you are striking with the correct part of the fist 3. your wrist is aligned correctly to avoid injury 4. you dont lock your elbow 5 your hand travels out and back along the same line. etc etc All pretty basic things. From there you can practice the punch with increased speed and power on pads or bags without fear of hurting yourself.

I dont beleive this is the case. It may appear this way because boxing is full contact so getting hit is unavoidable. The problem is the perfect form you are practising is nothing like the form you use when combat occurs. Having trained using the exact techniques you will be trying to use in a fight will save you. Training in a perfect form and then modifying this to fit into the situation of a fight will not.

I hope this provides some insight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashida_Kim

The differences in technique application in the arts you mentioned there are subtle, where the differences in styles that practice kata are quiet large. Take for example, a basic punch. In boxing if you are learning a punch, you are learning how to do the punch the correct way from the start. Both hands are up in the guard you will be fighting from, you are standing in the stance you will be fighting from, the punch goes out and comes back the same way you will throw it when you are applying it. Everything is done how it will be done in application. And everytime you practice it in shadow boxing, on a bag, in sparring etc you are doing it the way it is supposed to be applied. In karate you learn to punch with your hand on your side and your other hand low, in a deep stance. Then when it comes application, the punch is nothing like this. Another example is defensive skills, In boxing your major defence is movement including footwork and head movement. Also a good cover and some parries round it out. Whenever these things are practiced its done the way they are done when applied. The blocks in karate are never seen in sparring. Either they are modified, or people will say "there are no blocks in karate". If thats the case, why call them blocks and say they are blocks and train them like blocks in kata and kihon? The footwork and stance used in kata is very different to what you see used in sparring. So although its impossible to perform your techniques perfectly, because we all know fights are never perfect, some styles approach to train require alot more technique modification than others.

I agree with the original poster. When reading my post keep in mind im aware that there are schools out the that train in bunkai effectively, this post is not targetted at them. I will try and provide my thoughts on the most common beliefs of kata followers. The majority of schools these days do lots of kata (just look at the kata list from people on this forum) but rarely work on the application of the techniques. In the event that a school trains the application it is rarely a technique that will work against a fully commited and resisting opponent. The majority of training is done with a complient opponent and the technique itself relies on a large number of variables matching up to allow the technique to work. Kata is a good workout..? Maybe so, but these days there are much more effective ways to build endurance, conditioning, stamina, strength etc, than performing solo kata. kata is what the old masters did so it must be good... Since the times of these old masters we have made leaps and bounds when it comes to new information about what works and doesnt work in combat. Look at the ufc, like it or not, when you watch the ufc you will see what actually WORKS when: 1. someone is throwing a series of full speed strikes at you. 2. someone is holding onto you at close range and is throwing strikes. 3. someone has you on the ground and is trying to snap your arm/leg or choke you out. Kata is for defending against an untrained attacker... This to me is a bit of a cop out... its like saying, "kata doesnt have to work against someone who knows how to fight". That may be true, but my question is.. Why settle? Now days people have access to huge amounts of information regarding the most common things that happen in a fight and the best ways to deal with them. If you train to defend yourself against a trained attacker thats one less thing you have to worry about in the heat of battle. You dont see kata techniques in kumite because the techniques are the ideal way to perform them and they must be modified.... Why? If you need to modify the technique, why train the original one that will never be used? so you learn the mechanics of the technique or how to perform the technique correctly? If you are modifying it then its not the same technique anyway. This is a start, i look forward to everyones replies.

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Very true. I guess starting from a wrist grab is just a reference point, from there the technique later on can be applied from any position where the opponents arm is controlled.

This has happened a few times at our dojo. Generally they wear a white belt and line out at the end with the other white belt. Just goes to show that belt colour isnt always a reflection of skill or knowledge.

I think "lapel" grabs would be a little more likely to occur. But it would be more like grabbing your shirt to setup for a big right hand to the face.

bunkai is often practised against people grabbing the wrists. What are your thoughts on this? I highly doubt anyone looking to seriously harm you would walk up to you and grab your wrist. We always say that the wrist is grabbed because you make them grab it.. If you attack the face with an eye gouge, or the throat or groin with a grab, then they will likely grab your wrist or arm to try and move it away. At this point you do the wrist control techniques found in kata... Whats everyones thoughts?

I agree. I think the most important word pineapple used was 'distance'. If you dont control the distance, and you allow the attacker to get to close, then the first person to strike will definetly have an advantage. If however, you control the distance with a suitable defensive posture, you have the advantage because you give yourself enough distance to react to your opponent and your in control, without them even knowing.

I agree. Dont be afraid to walk away, if you avoid a fight by walking away and ignoring these peoples words then you will be a better person for it.

The main thing is that a schools instructor should be very clear from the start about what type of training they will be offering the student. If they are offering instruction in ways to become a proficient fighter, then the training should reflect that, with a heavy focus on conditioning and 'live training'. If the instructor claims to teach self defence, then the training needs to address self defence issues, including legal implications, scenario based training etc. It cant be assumed that by showing up and doing the technique without addressing these things that you will learn to defend yourself by accident. If the school is designed has a place to maintain a basic level of fitness and take part in the martial arts more like a "hobby" then they should be proud to tell the student this and not claim to be anything they are not. I think its very possible to be a martial artist and a martial athlete at the same time, or each one exclusively, just be aware of which you are and be proud of that, just dont pretend to be something that you are not.

Like alsey was saying, there is a difference between kihon and application. Stances are transitional techniques, not fixed positions. You will go into various stances while you are doing other movements without even knowing some of the time.

We do Kakuto-uke.... and we use it more for deflection than striking (hence the uke).

LOL! Dont let a New Zealander hear you say that.

At our dojo kiai are only heard: 1. The 1 or 2 times they are found in kata. 2. At the end of a set of techniques in kihon. 3. Between higher level students in kumite(only a couple of times per session). Its rare to hear junior(in rank) students use kiai in kumite, unless its for competition and then they go a little overboard.

Fighting spirit is an attitude, not so much about techniques. Your lucky to be training in one of the tougher styles of karate. Over time, and with practice you will develop that fighting spirit. Having that is more important than any set of techniques(the techniques just back up the attitude). Ask some of the senior students if they can work with you on the areas you are not comfortable with. And talk to your instructor, he/she will be the best person to consult.

Agreed. Its a method of showing respect, different styles do it differently, im sure there are reasons why.

In not sure of the origin of each, but i can certainly tell you what we do in our style. Our bow comes from the hips, like most(if not all). Head stays inline with spine and follows the path of the bow. Eyes dont look directly at opponent or directly down but towards the ground at a distance of about 2 metres infront.

Of course, in a one off situation its helpful to use english. But if i decided to dedicate myself to a korean style i would expect to use the korean terminology and using it would most likely make the techniques easier to talk about. I think thats what most of the other posters are getting at.