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From the style i used to train in i had the chance to do some kobudo and watch how seniors do their kobudo training. The training was fairly static sort of defenses against controlled attacks and it never went futher than that. The seniors did do weapon sparring, both unarmed vs. weapon and weapon vs weapon. The problem was that there was no system to it. It just seemed like "wing it and see what happens" not really always the best way to learn. And the static training did not transfer to the more free sparring situations. If you are looking to learn weapons for self defence, learn how to deal with sticks, knives and improvised weapons, not farming tools used years ago.

Definetly. Its also important to have or build at least some kind of friendship with your training partners. My training partners these days are all likeminded friends of mine who are interested in learning, and teach me more than enough to keep me going at the same time.

Where do you see karate blocks place in reality? Dont these blocks need to be modified to become a throw or something that looks nothing like the original technique? I dont see how the blocked applied has is in kata can do anything useful in terms of effective strike defence. Experiences vary. If your talking in terms of sparring, your mind is already in a prepared state so you know that your going to have to do those techniques. The fear of getting seriously hurt if you make a mistake is not present either. I think you overestimate a person with training's ability to react to surprise situations with specialised techniques. And the flinch reflex is a near perfect protection for the human body, if you train to use it to your advantage, not has is. An example: When i was younger i had 5 years karate training under my belt and found it fairly easy to defend against a large number of attacking in the dojo situation(the prepared mindset again). However, a friend of mine often enjoyed slapping people(including me) in the face when he was drunk, or annoyed at them. The first time he did it to me i didnt see him coming (from the side), he hit me clean, and hard, on the face with a fairly telegraphed slap. Next time i saw him coming up to me after i said something silly to him and went to slap but i flinched and his slap hit me in the arm. No harm done. After alot of warning from me he still thought it was a good idea to slap me on another occasion. Needless to say he learned why it was a bad idea to slap me and hasnt done it since. The point im trying to make is that friends can be cruel.. Not really, the prepared mindset you have during training makes it easy for you to perform lots of techniques, in a self defence situation you dont have the luxury of being prepared, so training at utilising what youve already got (the flinch reflex, the automatic urge to grab etc) will save you more times than anything else. Ofcourse, fights by nature are sloppy, dangerous, and rarely conform to the ideals seen of movies or sparring sessions in class. Im not suggesting you should train your insticts has is. Im saying you should recognise what your natural reactions are, and without moving to far away from them, make slight changes to help these benifit you. training in tightening the punches up and throwing them from a correct defensive position is needed. Training karate style punches doesnt do this. Perhaps, but the majority of the techniques i see in kata have limited effectivness, and the large number of techniques involved with little mention of tactics and correct usage cause confusion when it comes to actually protecting yourself.

I see where you are coming from. But if we are talkling about moves that work, i assume we are talking about in a self defence situation? If thats the case then i would say one of the majory downfalls of kata based systems, or systems that use kata to offload information to the student is the heavy focus on techniques and the limited focus on tactics. If all you practice regularly is the 12 moves that work for you, how indepth would you knowledge of the other techniques that are more likely to work for someone else be? Beleive it or not there are some tactics out there that will work for the majority of people. Obviously physical size and strength is a great advantage, but there are certain techniques that are natural for the human body and will work fairly well regardless of these factors.

What works for the people who created the kata may not work for others either. Most of the time people are taught the kata because its part of the system. If i didnt work for them does that mean the teacher will recognise that and say they dont need to do it anymore because it doesnt suit them?

What are the other 68-148 for?

Exactly, that point was highlighted when i witnessed a person with almost 15 years of training who was going for his 3rd dan, step up to spar with much higher grades. He froze up and did nothing besides get hit and thrown the whole time.

Certainly, its alot easier to learn, for me anyway, when you can openly question the reason for doing everything, if the answer doesnt make sense, scrap it.

I think you make a good point here, however, adrenaline is hardly ever replicated in a class setting. Agreed. Its those movements, found in kata, that are often the problem. The body doesnt naturally act that way. The body already knows how it wants to act during high stress situations. Rather than trying to relearn that, why not embrace your natural behaviour and train to enhance that?

Perhaps the movements are not. The ability to convert the movements (which have very limited direct application) to techniques that will actually work does take quiet a bit of thought. Looking at another post on the forum regarding how many kata people know, it turns out the majority of people learn upwards of 15 kata. If we are conservative and say each kata has 10 techniques (most probably more). Thats 150 techniques to remember. Some will overlap, but do the overlapping ones all have the same application, or is each 1 different? The point im trying to make is that learning alot of techniques is probably the worst thing you could do if you want to defend yourself. Having alot to choose from causes indecision which is something you cant afford to do. And all that assumes the person has a working application to all the techniques.

I didnt really think to much about it at the time. It wasnt that bad. I guess having some working footwork was what saves you from loosing your footing.

Good point. rarely(if ever) will a person be wearing clothes that are loose has a gi.

Exactly. Thanks alot for the comments.

I used to do alot of bag work in flip flops, on gravel. Footing was a little different. But it was still pretty easy to maintain balance. Time is something you dont have alot of in a real fight. If you can take them off while hitting the guy, then maybe. Otherwise, forget it.

I could have trained both, but i dont really have the inclination to do that. A systematic approach to self defence. Needless to say i didnt find that after i returned to karate, which forced me to start training on my own and with my own partners. Havnt looked back.

I think its a good thing in a way. In a self defence situation a little pebble is gunna be the least of your worries when it comes to environmental factors.

How so?

When you consider that the majority of the time you are likely to be attacked, you will have shoes on, why do some many classes train in barefeet? For tradition purposes most likely. Your correct, you wont think "oh no, i have my shoes on" but that doesnt mean you dont need to train while wearing shoes. Alot of movement and technique is different when you throw shoes and uneven terrain into the mix. Adrenaline increases, senses decrease, gross motor skills take over. The less new things you have to experience in a self defence situation the better. Shoes are a common thing in modern life, if you style doesnt adapt to modern times and trends within society, you are leaving out alot of things that you will have to discover in the heat of conflict. Ill ask again, for the females, how often(if ever) do you train wearing any sort of heal or shoe that you are likely to wear when your out and about? If the answer is never, you are leaving out a big part of self defence training.

Definetly, one problem is often people start training without really knowing what they want to acheive, and they hang around because they find benifits, even if it doesnt really mean alot in their life.

Perhaps if we are talking about art only. But i find it hard to beleive that sensitivity would not decrease into old age?

At that class the coach really wanted nothing to do with anyone who wasnt interested in competing.

I think along pretty much the same lines. Its been at least 6 months since the last time i performed a kata and since then ive made great advances in my training and knowledge by focusing on what i want to learn, not what a teacher decides i should know.

Agreed, I have never seen anyone practicing outdoors in a public area. I think someone doing kata in a park with normal clothes on would look kinda odd. Hey Havoc... 100 posts, congrats.

I agree with you. I wasnt advocating not training. Just making that point that just because something doesnt cause injury doesnt mean its of great benifit to you. I apologise for not being more clear originally.

At the club i used to train at it was a grading requirement to perform all kata that you know. Meaning you build up a large number of techniques to memorise. The problem was that bunkai for the said kata was taught on "special" occasions only and glanced over in comparision to the time spent doing the kata. Thats what you get from styles that focus on techniques over tactics. Enjoyable for some, not my kind of thing.