Ueshirokarate

Matsubayashi is Shoshin Nagamine's version of Shorin Ryu and what you describe sounds pretty identical. Why don't we start another thread on Naihanchi Sho (it is much more universal than the other to Naihanchi katas)?

Watching a kata online is not the same as discussing it with a practitioner of another style. For example, the videos I have seen showing the last four moves of Wado's Pinan Nidan look to me as they are also a uke as in Matsubayashi with a different body movement and slightly different hand positioning and not a strike. I would have never know the strike aspect if we hadn't discussed them. No, my posts throughout this thread have only been toward a desire to discuss individual techniques in the pinans and how to apply them in a fight. I really don't have interest in how others made kata work for them, what their philosophy of why kata is important, etc.

I have been fortunate enough to train the pinan katas under many, many instructors. I'd like to think I have a pretty advanced understanding of them for my style, as I have focused, studied and practiced them for a long time. I am more seeking the common threads between all of the styles that teach them. The history of karate is fascinating and no one can really tell you exactly how Itosu would perform them or apply the techniques. We don't even know if they came from a mother kata, or were a completely original creation from Itosu. We do know that all the schools that teach them today trace their lineage back to Itosu.

Wado's is also a lower strike, correct? Where would you be aiming if you were facing a real opponent with the strike? Personally I believe the technique would work best to grab an opponents leg after they threw a kick and were dumb enough to keep it there too long.

So what do you think are the principles in this sequence? By the way, I don't mind spending a lot of time comparing styles.

Not really, or not in Wado-ryu at least. We do not move to the side - rather, we avoid the attack down the centre line by rotating the body. Also, the arms are performing "tsuki" rather than "uke" or "uchi". It is a very subtle. As an aside, I don't think you ever "conclude" what a sequence is all about as that implies limiting yourself. sojobo Interesting. The Matsubayashi version suggests that you are deflecting kicks:

Exactly what I was looking for, domo. I chose the Pinans, since they and perhaps Naihanchi Sho are the most ubiquitous katas amongst the various styles of karte (obviously not in some styles). In Matsubayashi, the last four moves of Pinan Nidan are all gedan shuto yoko barai uke (lower sideward knife hand slashing block) in cat stance (neko ashi dachi). Can we conclude that this sequence of four is all about moving to the side of an attacker, deflecting their strike and perhaps giving them a knife hand strike? Would anyone from another style comment to the contrary?

^^^^This. Your choice should be the best school in your area. Visit all the schools in your area, watch some classes, speak to the instructors and students, check out the credentials of the instructors, etc. The chemistry and quality has to be the most important factors in making a decision. The style should be one of the last factors. One other consideration is how widespread the system the school in case you move. I am fortunate enough to have chosen Matsubayashi, which is very traditional and pretty widespread. If I needed to move to another state, I probably could find a quality school with this style. I would also add to it that any legitimate style will be physically demanding. This is good, as karate will do amazing things for you and make you far more athletic than you ever thought you could be. I agree, its not about style its about YOU. Each system has it good bits and its bad bits. For me I would say Wado, but that's because I have more experience of Wado Ryu As stated, attend the classes, talk to the Instructors AND the students. Also a good school will offer 1 or 2 free lessons. Take up the free lessons and DON'T sign any contracts UNTIL YOU have decided which one is best for YOU Let us know how you get on I might add one thing. From my experience the most expensive school is usually not the best choice.

Interesting statistic, where is it from? Is that for a particular style?

Anyone who has trained for a while would certainly use parts, but there are parts that you don't. So why? What is their application? This is the point of the thread.

I am not too familiar with the protocol in Shotokan. I do have a heavy weight gi, which one of my teachers had a big issue with because of the noise it can make. I highly recommend Shureido if you really want to spend some cash. But there are so many good moderately priced brands out there.

On youtube, this Cannuck gives me a pretty good interpretation of Kata apps. I actually believe that these moves in Pinan Shodan and Pinan Yondan are a good example to look at. There are so many interpretations on them, yet as we train them using cat stance, I believe they are training a hip throw as in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLM6C9ICQo8 I think it is completely impractical in any fight to block with both arms at once. That said, in one the hands are in a fist and in the other they are open hand. What do you think?

No, I only responded because you asked me to. Perhaps you could provided an example so that like minded people could respond. Consider the techniques delivered in zenkutsu dachi. It is completely impractical in any kind of real life strike fight. My belief is that it trains your body to throw and is purely for grappling.

Thanks for the suggestion. It looks like a book on this exact subject.

Not really what I was looking for on the thread. Perhaps you should start another thread?

I disagree with a few things you say and I agree with some as well. Clearly you think what I suggested is not worth doing and obviously I disagree. I do not wish to get into a debate. If you wish to give your opinion on a particular move from a Pinan, feel free.

^^^^This. Your choice should be the best school in your area. Visit all the schools in your area, watch some classes, speak to the instructors and students, check out the credentials of the instructors, etc. The chemistry and quality has to be the most important factors in making a decision. The style should be one of the last factors. One other consideration is how widespread the system the school in case you move. I am fortunate enough to have chosen Matsubayashi, which is very traditional and pretty widespread. If I needed to move to another state, I probably could find a quality school with this style. I would also add to it that any legitimate style will be physically demanding. This is good, as karate will do amazing things for you and make you far more athletic than you ever thought you could be.

Wouldn't it be great if once and for all we could pick apart a kata and know exactly how to execute all the techniques in it in a fight? Would it be worth while if we picked one of the Pinan katas (since they seem to be so universal) and broke each move down until there was some majority opinion on each and every move? Some applications of kata are obvious, some are mysterious and it makes sense to me to put our collective heads together to figure them out.

I agree. I believe Karate contains what is missing from Judo and visa versa. Having studied both, I believe that Judo unlocked much kata for me.

Anyone do them? I have found them invaluable to karate. They have made me faster/more explosive.

Absolutely!! Concrete and the like doesn't give, and something has to give, namely our body. I also agree with this. I also agree that there is no "ultimate" martial art. BJJ and Muay Thai seem to have taken over the martial arts world to some extent due to the UFC. While some other styles have "had their day" in the ring if you will, these styles just seem to dominate. But the UFC really isn't realistic and your points about judo throws is just one illustration as to why. A simple deashi harai or seoi otoshi onto pavement and game over. Karate and many other styles also contains these types of throws.

^^^^^This ^^^^And this I have been studying martial arts on and off for almost twenty years. I have also been weight training on and off for twenty five. I have found that for martial arts, or for any athletic pursuit high reps and lighter weights is not all that effective. I now train heavy weights. Weight that I would be training to failure if I go above six reps. My routine is centered around the big lifts (squats, deadlifts and the bench press.) I have also found that the first two of these are very beneficial to the ability to get low in stances. Deadlifts are also a great way to gain more grip strength. Contrary to the belief that lifting slows you down, I have found my speed has been greatly enhanced by lifting. While I have lost a little flexibility, it is minor and more due to my muscle size getting in the way of my range of motion. The overall benefits I have gotten from lifting far outweigh this. I can't speak too highly of going heavy and using the big classic lifts to enhance your martial arts. I also believe if you are doing high reps on machines, you are really short changing yourself. For the record, I always make sure I do forms and stretch. It is very important to keep up your martial arts training while pursuing weight training.

We don't use it in our dojos. We have always used onegai shimasu.

They all trace their lineage back to Okinawa. Some styles share the same katas, yet there can still be big differences in how they are performed. You will find some schools will place more emphasis on jiyu kumite (free sparring and some are very aggressive with it), while others on kata (forms). Styles like gojo ryu are big into hojo undo (supplimentary training with things like chishi and nigiri gami). There are some styles that have still incorporate throws and some that don't. As for the theory of karate. It is a self-defense system and requires significant discipline and time in a dojo to master. You train your body to move in certain ways. The highest karate is when you avoid all fights. However, when you are in a situation where you just have no choice but to fight, you are trained in moves that can disable an untrained opponent swiftly so that you can remove yourself from the situation. The more you practice it the better you will get and your goal is to reach as high as your mind and body allow. If you are looking to learn the art and unsure of the style you wish to pursue, let me give you this advice. Do not focus on a style that has buz around it. Focuse on the best quality instructors that you can train under on a regular basis. Any quality style martial art is only as good as the actual training you get and the effort you put into it. Look for a school that has a connection to some quality national or international body. Keep in mind that it takes years and years to master these arts and you don't want to train a style that only has one school that may or may not be in business five years from now.

The more I read, the more I am convinced that karate should be 80% grappling already. Why don't we all just rediscover our grappling heritage?