Ueshirokarate

I highly doubt that Ota sensei would disagree with you, despite the film stating empty hand. I don't know how deeply into Zen he is, but there is a very strong Zen tradition in Matsubayashi: http://seinenkai.com/articles/art-heshiki.html

Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point. I beg to differ. I don't see many techniques that are the same. There is even a variation in the embussen. I am at work at the moment so can't spend too much time on the subject, but I will expand later on tonight. Sojobo I don't really see anything that would substantially change what the performer is doing. Yes, there are substantial stylistic differences. There is no doubt about this. However, the performer is still pretty much delivering the same techniques in the same sequence. Just as in my style's version of the kata. It isn't like suddenly the kata move has gone from a knife hand to the gut or upper punch from a down-block. It is still a down-block. Here is the Matsubayashi version: It would be very interesting to be on the deck together exploring bunkai of each. I believe the biggest difference is in the ending sequence. Wado employes a shuto zuke where as in Matsubayashi and Shotokan it is a shuto uke the latter having a jigotai dachi stance and the former a neko ashi dachi. That said, even when we are delivering a shuto-uke with one hand, the other can deliver a shuto-zuke, so at the end of the day we are still all traveling parallel paths.

Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point.

Dobbersky asked me about Judo and Karate katas. I have some judo experience, but it is all throws and ground work. So if any of you hold rank in both Okinawan Karate and Judo, please share your knowledge on this topic. Here is an interesting article on how/why karate is a complete fighting art: http://seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html

This is such a great point. A true martial artist is a martial artist and doesn't really care about labels, rivalries, styles, etc. Effective fighting technique is just that. It doesn't matter if it is from Tai Kwon Do or BJJ and a good fighter that has trained hard is a good fighter that has trained hard. Great martial art is great martial art no matter who is doing it or what art they practice and a true martial artist will recognize this. It is the "danger face" crowd that likes to debate this stuff. It is the true martial artists who can appreciate true mastery of an other.

I don't know, Ota Sensei is Okinawan born and raised and trained under some of the top Okinawan karate masters. I don't think he made any mistakes within the video i.e. kara's translation. These are probably cultural and linguistic differences between Okinawa and mainland Japan. Japanese is not the native language of Okinwa.

Indeed, and you see now what I mean about Wado and comparing it to Shotokan? Sojobo I think you completely missed my point earlier (sorry for not being that clear in making it), as you some how think I was saying that Wado was some extension of Shotokan or some style that basically took Shotokan's katas and called it a new style. My point was more that studying Wado would give one with a Shotokan background a much deeper understanding of Shuri-te katas of which they were already familiar. These katas are not Shotakon, they are patterns of movement developed long before Funikoshi was born, with the exception of the Pinans which were either created or broken up into the five katas we know when Funikoshi was 9 years old by Itosu. Funikoshi didn't create his katas and neither did Motubu or my system's founder (with the exception of Fukyugata Ichi), yet they all studied and applied them in different ways. Applying Wado's method of study to Shuri-te katas is just a path and I think a good one at that, to understand their application. For example, Judo is Japanese style derived from Jiu Jitsu. After taking Judo, I much better understood the katas I had practiced so many times before and their applications in a fight. Moves I used to scratch my head to as totally impractical suddenly made sense. It was just looking at something from a slightly different angle. One must remember that the human body can only move in so many different ways and you are either striking, blocking or throwing your opponent in any sequence within a kata. It also must be remembered that the Okinawans interacted with both the Japanese and Chinese, so they were familiar with their styles of fighting and to think there wasn't heavy cross-pollination between these cultures and their fighting systems is to just be silly.

Surely there is someone on here who holds rank in judo and some form of Suri-te based Okinawan Karate that is better able to discuss this. I agree, it would be most interesting to discuss that topic. It is a bit of a political topic in my system though, as there are those of much higher rank than I who don't believe grabbing and throws are part of our style (I greatly beg to differ with that) and those that say years ago they practiced throws and ground work all the time. Interestingly, the founder of Matsubayashi (Shosin Nagamine) also held dan rank in judo. When you are back on computer, let's start a thread to discuss this and the work of Patrick McCarthy, tegumi, etc.

Ok, I am biased as this is the same style I study. But surely anyone with an Okinawan Karate background should enjoy the following two short films on the front page of this website: http://shorin-ryu.com/ Ota Sensei is not affiliated with the school/system I am involved with, but we do share Nagamine as our founder and our katas, philosophy and overall training is pretty much the same.

Here is an interesting article on this very subject: http://www.karatebyjesse.com/?p=5249 Nagamine (founder of my style) is quoted at the end. I also found this article on the same website: http://www.karatebyjesse.com/?p=4558 Which kind of brings the discussion here back in a full circle, as it discusses two important influences on Wado Ryu and the conflict between them.

Thank you for that clarification, as I have heard those terms but didn't really understand their meaning. They aren't really a part of our system's lingo. Within that clip, there are seven different pre-aranged sequences. Each one is different in terms of attack techniques and response. While there are initiating attacks in each of the yakusoku kumite, these are only for the purpose of training the karateka how to deal with an attack. There is no first attack in any Matsubayashi kata ("Karate Ni Sente Nashi" in practice), so you wouldn't see sensen no sen in a Matsubayashi yakusoku kumite. We can debate whether this means to never initiate attack, or to always wait for your opponent's first move as a strategy on a another thread. That said, there is a combination of both go no sen and sen no sen within the yakusoku kumites.

You should see a physiatrist about this. My guess is that you could benefit from a strengthening program (beyond karate and specific to your injury).

Forgive me, I just don't understand the first two sentences in your post. As for your comment regarding distance, what I said in my prior post applies across all movements in the kumite, not just the first move. In class, we keep switching partners and you can find yourself against a 5' woman and than next opponent is a man who is 6'6" with completely different mai and timing in each move. By chance, did you visit the book I linked? I am curious if there is anything like that philosophically in Wado's kumite gatas.

Thank you for the link, I really enjoyed that. As far as comparing it to our pair work, yes I see similarities with many of the Ippon / SanbonKumite that we do, but it is quite different (I think) to Wado's Kihon Kumite. Techniques aside perhaps the most striking difference was the distance and timing. What do you think Dobbersky. Sojobo The philosophy behind our techniques is to challenge each other in terms of timing and mai. What you saw in the video is just two deshi doing this in one particular way at one particular time. This kumite is there to help train us to fight with technique. You could stand there for a minute between any move, or execute all the moves in fast sequence. The more times and more ways you break it up, the better. If you do it the same way each time, there is very little challenge to the uke. You must also remember that the video I provided is several different sequences strung together in one long sequence. As for mai, it is up to the uke to adjust theirs to deal with the attacker. The attacker may charge in, in an attempt to take over the uke's space, or may come in, in a less aggressive fashion. Once again, if it is done the same way each time, it is useless. Here is an excerpt from Nagamine's book on these fighting techniques, starting with “Motobu, my sensei used to preach against “dead kumite”, therefore I deliberately developed kumite, seriously considering the following seven essential conditions": http://books.google.com/books?id=0pfop_Cgb0gC&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=nagamine+dead+kumite&source=bl&ots=C2NCfAGAOf&sig=Eb4kfczp9ioqj73G-h-DqyD-dzg&hl=en&ei=y7ZsTuPTKdC40gGTrLjzBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Karate hasn't really lost its value. For two decades it fell into a decline in popularity because of a heavy marketing campaign against it and other traditional martial arts. The good thing about the past two decades, is that it has really forced the traditional arts to think about real fighting and real world application of its catalog of techniques. It has also made consumers more discriminating in choosing a school. The bad part of it, is that the general public thinks of karate as kickboxing with some board breaking trickery. It is up to us to market the style and bring it back to the place it should be.

By the way, I thought this from the style I study (we have slightly different versions than in the video) would be an interesting addition to your discussion of Wado's Kihons. The founder of Matsubayashi credited Motubu as the influence in his created these per-aranged fighting sequences which are in the video.

I am going to let you guys discuss this, as Wado is not my style and never has been. However, I would like to clarify my point. It wasn't that Shotokan and Wado were identical, my point was that two masters of Shuri-te influenced Wado and its founder and it would be very interesting to study the style. Obviously it is unique and has other influences. I didn't mean to suggest in anyway that it was a carbon copy of Shotokan. http://www.wadoworld.com/history/naihanchienigma/modernmasters/modernmasters.html The history of katas are completely lost, as are the original applications of all the techniques. We are left to work at unraveling them in all there potential applications on the dojo floor. To have Shuri-te katas examined with the influence of outside martial artists who can bring their understanding of fighting techniques can help us in our journey to master our katas. This is how I think someone who has studied these same Shuri-te katas can greatly benefit from studying them from a different angle, an angle influenced by Shuri-te (and now I know from you a Naha-te master too.)

To quote Otsuka himself... "Okinawan Karate is to Wado as a pinch of salt is to a stew". Sojobo Well I am pretty sure it was his son that said that. He can say anything he wants to sell the style, but the fact is that to my knowledge all of their katas are of Okinawan origin. I am not a Wado stylist, but to me that suggests a lot more influence of Shuri-te than these words imply.

Try the sandbag thing, you really don't have to be so technical and it is much more applicable to martial arts. It will benefit you greatly.

That's not entirely correct. Whilst I would agree that Funakoshi's karate undoubtely help shape Otsuka's Wado, I don't think it was by applying Shotokan techniques per-se. Otsuka was already Menkyo Keiden in Shindo Yoshin-ryu (a Koryu Bujutsu of fuedel Japan), and as such he had considerable combat skills long before he stepped foot into a karate dojo. Yes, there are techniques that are common between the styles however the core principles of Wado have more in common with SYR imo. Sojobo Point was more that Shotokan was an influencing style. How much does not matter. Shuri-te was Funikoshi's background/training and also Motubu's. This means that there is much Shuri-te influence in Wado Ryu. I would like to think there was strong influence from Motubu and his more practical applicative view of karate and that should be of great interest to any serious karate student.

I was thinking about this last night and there is another angle you should consider. The founder of Wado studied under the founder of Shotokan. He later trained under Motubu who is touted as one of the best karatka of all time. If you don't know his story, you really should look him up. After thinking about your situation, I think you should completely embrace this opportunity as a gift and throw your all into Wado. It really is an opportunity to follow almost directly in the footsteps of Wado's founder who shaped his style by seeking to apply Shotokan's and other karate techniques like his mentor Motubu who apparently would pick fights in bars just to try out karate techniques and refine his fighting ability. http://www.wadoworld.com/history/history.html If I had the chance to study Wado, I would.

Posted on wrong thread

So important to visit a place multiple times. Make sure the quality is there and the chemistry is right.

Wado Pinan Nidan (Shotokan it is Heian Shodan) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csg3qL7rYuQ It is Pinan Nidan in my style too:

Were you studying another style at the time? . I was practicing/Teaching Ashihara Karate, as well as practicing Wado Ryu. Agree with you there, my friend. Its best when 2 styles are so similar yet so different to pick one or the other. If the OP, prefers his ShotoKan, if you speak withe the Sensei, I am sure he will allow you to train with him but just do the Kata the Shotokan way so as not to cause confusion. That is a great suggestion. You should also speak with your sensei at home and let him know the situation (if you haven't already). Perhaps he will count your training away toward your ranking.