Ueshirokarate

Don't know about you guys, but I see Naihanchi at work here:

Yeah, time is always an issue and mat/deck time should always come first. If you like kettlebells, you'll love a sandbag. Belt for pull-ups is an awesome idea.

I truly believe that all martial artists should find the most efficient means of training they can. I also believe that if Choki Motubu had access to modern equipment, he would most certainly use it. I am a CMMACC and just love sharing exercises with fellow martial artists. I like to lift weights and I have found them a tremendous supplement to my training. I focus on deadlifts, pullups, dips, benchpress and squats. I have also done some Olympic lifting which can help you to become blindingly fast. I have recently started to use sandbags to do Olympic lifts with. Not only do you get the benefit of Olympic lifting, but you can also drop a rubber mulch filled sandbag on floors Olympic plate loaded barbells will crash through AND it is great way to help develop grappling forearm strength and endurance. I also recently bought a TRX and will start a routine with it in the next month or so as I change out some of the traditional lifting I have been doing. I am somewhat of chishi fanatic as well. I recently read that Indian Clubs are making a comeback and realized that these are pretty much the same thing as a chishi. I use a large two handed one and smaller single handed ones to do a variety of traditional exercise. I believe they are a good way to develop strength, endurance, flexibility and skill in the hands and forearms. What type of supplemental training do you do?

After years of makiwara training, I don't find gloves are needed for most heavy bags. That said, some are very dense and you could hurt yourself without gloves.

I don't think either way is wrong, its just down to personal preference in how you want to run your school. Just with the assessing in class model, why bother with a specific testing day? Why not just assess in class and leave it at that? Is it not cheating them out of money to insist that they come along to a testing and pay you to pass them for turning up? For me, they do have to perform consistently well in class to even get invited to the test but once they're there they have to perform their best. We do all day testings, even for colour belts. The whole point of testing for us is to push yourself above and beyond and to see how everyone performs under pressure. We're also quite a large school with near 200 students and although everyone gets attention in class, grading is a whole nother level where a panel of 5+ people are scrutinizing everything you do. Its probably a lot better to assess in class as a testing model when you have smaller numbers but we just can't do it to that in our school and do it to a high standard. Got to spend our class time teaching, not just drilling. I don't think they should feel cheated. Disappointed yes, but not cheated. The people who grade in my school know that there is a chance they'll fail if they don't perform on the day so its not like we're dangling a carrot in front of their face and then snatching it away. Its perfectly accessible to those who really want it and try hard. And failing isn't the end all and be all. Like I said in my earlier post, borderline fails get put on a probationary period where they can end up getting the belt after a few weeks. But the key issue is you have to work for it on the day. Any other studying you do in life; academic studying, driving tests, etc. and you've got to perform on the day. Yes, it comes down to preference/philosophy.

I thought the instructor was suppose to determine if the student is ready to test? Sounds like a scam on testing fees if the instructor lets the student test even though the student isn't ready. That's one angle I hadn't thought of and you are right. I think I would feel completely cheated as a student if that happened and my testing fee wasn't returned. Why should you get your money back? You paid the examiner for their time and for them to judge you. They still performed their bit even though you weren't up to scratch. Why should they test you for free? If anything I'd do it the other way, use the testing fee as a deposit. If you don't pass the belt, the examiner gets to keep it because you've just wasted their time. Would make a lot of people try harder. Just because you've paid your dues and turned up to test, doesn't mean you automatically get the belt. If you look crumble under the pressure and look shocking you shouldn't pass and they should get to keep the fee. If you fail your driving test you don't get your money back. Dwx, That was well said and I agree 100% Quite honestly, if a student is trying their hardest and doing the best they can do week in and week out and you tell them they can test and then fail them, I'll bet they will feel cheated. I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think a good portion of your students won't feel that way. Obviously this is just my opinion and I clearly have a different opinion on the matter than some of you. Differences are what make the world go round. I see the test as how they perform in the dojo at each and every class. Students to me are always testing if you will and if they aren't up to the next level, I wouldn't let them test. The only way I would ever fail someone at kyu level would be if they were displaying bad behavior during the test or refused to go through it. If they don't earn the next level on the deck week in and week out, they are failing the real test in my opinion won't be able to do what I see should be more a ceremonial test. Just the way I see it. This is just a different philosophy than some of you have and you have to run your dojo as you see best.

I thought the instructor was suppose to determine if the student is ready to test? Sounds like a scam on testing fees if the instructor lets the student test even though the student isn't ready. That's one angle I hadn't thought of and you are right. I think I would feel completely cheated as a student if that happened and my testing fee wasn't returned.

If I was coaching you and building up your arms was your goal, the first two things I would want to know is how is your diet and what kind of lifting program you had. It is pretty much impossible to build up muscle anywhere on your body if you are not running a calorie surplus and eating enough protein. It also will not happen if you aren't increasing the amount of weight you are lifting. Both diet and progressive overload are critical.

Lucky you, enjoy! If you haven't read it yet, you should read Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan Karate before you go.

I don't think there is anything wrong with doing it this way. But, I also see the value of putting the pressure on in a testing situation. I think its important for someone to learn what that nervousness feels like, and be able to overcome it in that testing environment. Learning how to "step up" is good for character development, as well.I didn't say that you had to tell the students this and I was speaking about kyu ranks only.

I agree that it is largely under-trained in karate, but there are still many who incorporate it. My personal belief, and I could be wrong--I certainly don't have documentation to back it up--is that martial arts developed on Okinawa much the same way they did in ancient Greece. What I mean by that is that they fought each other with whatever grappling and striking skills they knew and as those skills got more refined over time they were split into separate arts (this is how boxing and wrestling we created, as I understand it) and only a few people continued to incorporate both concepts in full while most chose to favor one over the other. This is how tegumi and te came about (again, this is just my belief) as they are separate striking and grappling arts. I feel that over time the practitioners of te, as they began incorporating concepts and techniques from Chinese arts, started to train grappling concepts more and more until the cycle started over again and some people started going the way of grappling-only or striking-only training with a little dabbling between the two. It seems to me that this cycle just keeps going because people tend to have a preference and will typically practice and teach to their preferences. All that is just my belief based on other arts and trends, but I could most certainly be wrong. I, admittedly, don't know enough about the origins of tegumi and te prior to the transition between te and Todi to be certain, nor do I have any documentation to prove my point. My impression was that karate was adopted into the school systems as more a sport and much of the grappling was removed for that purpose. But to me, every kata I know has a heavy element of grappling in it, especially throws and I wish that we trained them like judoka.

Excellent post. I am curious how your judo experience has influenced your view of katas in general. I am of the mindset that grappling is completly undertrained in karate. I also believe that it was at one time as important to the art as kicks and strikes. It is kind of the direct opposite of what happened to judo.

I am going to make the assumption that you wish to lose bodyfat and not weight to meet a class weight for a competiton. This is important, because too many go on too extreme a diet and strip off muscle and wreak havoc on their metabolism. Strength training will greatly benefit anyone trying to lose weight (need not be weights). I am not a nutritionist and would suggest meeting with an registered dietician who specializes in athletes. The general guidlines to lose fat are to find your maintenence calories and eat at a 500 calorie deficit. This should allow you to lose 1-2lbs a week without jeopardizing muscle or metabolism. I'll post more later when back at a real computer.

Yoga is fantastic and is said to be the mother of Asian Martial Arts. There are many varieties and think it is better to take the more challenging ones. If strength training and "cross training" wasn't effective for martial arts, no martial arts class would have people doing push-ups, etc. The problem I see it is when you have limited time or things are out of balence.

Shouldn't a student be testing on the deck each and every class and belt tests be more ceremonial? It just seems better to require your students to have to ask permission to test and you tell them that they can or not based on where they are. I can see failing someone for blatantly not trying on a belt test, being a wise mouth that day, etc, but for a mistake or something when they have executed things on the deck 100 times perfectly and always show great spirit, just doesn't make sense to me.

Hey that is too bad. Best you can do is use the gift of time off for other things. Perhaps you can spend time doing visulization training or something else that will move you forward in other ways. Good luck and don't sweat it, you can come back stronger than ever. Some take years off and do so.

Excellent post. I actually don't buy the back to the wall idea. To me the value of naihanchi is for fighting when you are close in with an opponent. I have read authors who believe that each kata is its own distinct and complete fighting system. Further many masters spent their entire life just studying one kata. It is fun to learn many katas as we do today, but that is more for the system of rank and to keep students from becoming bored than to develop fighting skills in my opinion. There really is no reason to learn all the katas in a system. You should be able to proficiently fight with one. The challenge becomes learning how to apply the techniques and then effectively drilling them and conditioning your body.

Anyone using them as supplemental training for their art?

The strongest theory I have come across for the roots of Naihanchi, is that it is the Okinawan adaptation of the Dai Fan Che of Mantis Kung Fu: Here is an excellent article on it: http://www.cw-fc.com/karate/kata/naihanchi.htm

It is my opinion that there is no kata as important, overlooked or more definitive of karate than Naihanchi Sho. Iotosu's student Yabu Kentsu used to say that karate begins with Naihanchi. I am sure practioners of Goju Ryu and a few other styles would say the same of Sanchin. Naihanchi was also a favorite of karate great Choki Motubu for real fighting. So this begs the question what exactly about the kata makes it so special. Yes it develops strength endurance in the legs, but what makes the techniques it holds so effective in fighting?

Naihanchi Sho and the Pinans are really the only katas that are so ubiquitous. Not even Sanchin is as widespread as these katas, so I think it would only be two threads and there is so much material in the Pinans that I don't wish to muddy things up with Naihanchi on this thread. Besides, if there is one kata in the world that deserves its own thread, it would be Naihanch Sho.

Nothing in karate early history is "fairly well documented", including what you just said. There are those who believe that the Pinan Katas are a broken down version of another kata (chanan). What you stated is just one theory. If we were going back into the 15th and 16th century then you are correct. Itosu however did his stuff in the 19th and 20th century and that is fairly well evidenced. I said broadly speaking - I was aware of other influences such as Gojushiho and Chiang -nan, but these were minilmal by comparion. sojobo . If you have documentation that disproves what I said in the last post, please share it with me. I am a voracious reader on karate's history and am not aware of anything other than quoted opinions on Itosu's creation of the pinan's. One school stating that they are the chanan kata broken down into five seperate kata's, the other school stating he adopted techniques he knew from elsewhere and softened them for younger students. That said, I do hope we can continue the dialogue thus far, keep the thread on track and back to technical application of the pinans to real world fighting.I'll PM you some details so as to keep this thread on the straight and narrow. Sojobo I appreciate both. Domo!

Nothing in karate early history is "fairly well documented", including what you just said. There are those who believe that the Pinan Katas are a broken down version of another kata (chanan). What you stated is just one theory. If we were going back into the 15th and 16th century then you are correct. Itosu however did his stuff in the 19th and 20th century and that is fairly well evidenced. I said broadly speaking - I was aware of other influences such as Gojushiho and Chiang -nan, but these were minilmal by comparion. sojobo . If you have documentation that disproves what I said in the last post, please share it with me. I am a voracious reader on karate's history and am not aware of anything other than quoted opinions on Itosu's creation of the pinan's. One school stating that they are the chanan kata broken down into five seperate kata's, the other school stating he adopted techniques he knew from elsewhere and softened them for younger students. That said, I do hope we can continue the dialogue thus far, keep the thread on track and back to technical application of the pinans to real world fighting.

I have always understood all thrusts to be strikes, some are blocking strikes but always strikes. Can you tell me more about it?

Nothing in karate early history is "fairly well documented", including what you just said. There are those who believe that the Pinan Katas are a broken down version of another kata (chanan). What you stated is just one theory.