Wastelander

I feel it is necessary for me to jump in, here, and say that putting keys between your fingers as a self-defense weapon is a terrible idea, and should NOT be recommended to anyone. You will cut up your fingers quite badly if you try to hit something that way. You can pinch-grip a single large key, preferably with a bulky plastic section, and use that to dig into sensitive targets, but keys are generally just very bad for hitting. Belts are decent for people trained with flexible weapons, but not great, overall, and definitely not something your average person should try to use--they'll hit themselves. Fist loads aren't really all that beneficial--you're better off holding something that extends out of your hand, like the flashlight/torch you mentioned, or a metal pen, and using that to stab/hammerfist or hook with. This can also work with things like lipstick, mascara bottles, or vape pens. I'm fond of wooden or metal hair sticks for people with long hair for this, as well. You can use the edges of a smartphone to hit somebody in a similar fashion, and they'll hold up decently well, but you do run the risk of breaking the thing you need to call for help. You can also often find items around you to improvise with, depending on where you are. Restaurants have silverware, parks can have sticks and rocks, parking lots can have bottles, bricks, and rocks, homes have all manner of potentially dangerous items in them.

When I've done them, before, awareness was nearly half the session, but as you mention, that doesn't really fit into the fitness focus, here. For the physical components, we usually also taught what you listed, as well as a basic mount escape, a basic guard sweep, and improvised weapons (too many people still think the keys between the fingers thing is a good idea).

Welcome back to karate, and to the forum!

The school Bob mentions, here, is run by Salvatore Cirincione, who is a student of Nabil Noujaim down in El Centro. The Shorinkan tends to be pretty particular about its instructors being Shorinkan-trained, and I'm not sure which branch of Shorin-Ryu you have trained in, but it's worth asking if you're really wanting to teach. I'd be happy to discuss my experiences with those folks privately, if you'd like more information.

Admittedly, I may not be explaining my questions properly, myself. I'm a bit confused, because--and this is just my interpretation--you've essentially stated that the movements of kata are not combatively applicable, but you're saying that you see kata as developing the ability to flow between martial arts techniques, like shadowboxing with pre-defined combinations. Shadowboxing, though, is intended to be directly combatively applicable, and if the techniques of kata are not, then I'm not sure how they can be likened to shadowboxing in a meaningful way, nor do I see how they even qualify as being "martial" techniques, at all. Additionally, what value is there in practicing combinations of techniques that don't have combative applications in the first place? And we agree that practicing kihon is important for learning to perform techniques properly, but what is "proper?" I would argue that, if the techniques are martial in nature, then combative functionality should be the measure of what is "proper," but if the techniques aren't combatively applicable, what, then, is the metric by which you judge a technique to be "properly" performed? Am I making sense, or just muddling things further? Sometimes, I can't tell, lol!

This may be getting a bit off-topic, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory or confrontational, but I can't help but ask the question; what do you think kata were designed for, and why were they built the way they were? If it was just for body control, awareness, and coordination, then why would they bother to design the kata the way they did? Gymnastics/acrobatics accomplish the same things--arguably far better--so why not simply do that? Weightlifting, too, has proven to have the same benefits. Seems like a waste of time to do kata if they have no other purpose, especially given the fact that the Okinawans who developed karate had plenty of access to both gymnastics/acrobatics and weightlifting, and many actually did those in addition to their kata. Kihon training also accomplish the same things, but the basics are essentially just movements already used in the kata, which you've already said aren't useful for application, which then brings the practice of basics into question, entirely. What, then, makes karate a "martial" art, exactly? Sparring? The only sparring most karateka do, nowadays, was invented in the 1940's/50's, more-or-less, so that certainly doesn't get back to the intent of the art. I have seen it argued that the kata and kihon improve your sparring, but really, the skillsets used in the vast majority of modern kumite are completely different than the movements, postures, and mechanics you use in kata and kihon. That, again, begs the question of why not just do gymnastics/acrobatics or weightlifting while training sparring, if they essentially serve the same purpose as the kata and kihon, but more effectively? That's what modern competitive fighters tend to do, already, in fact.

You'll get the benefits of improved fitness, balance, and coordination, regardless, but that comes from pretty much any exercise. The benefits beyond that are really going to be determined by the mindset with which you train--you get out what you put in, essentially. If all you practice them for is because they're required for your next belt, then you aren't really going to get anything out of them besides the basic benefits of exercise. If you train them for enjoyment, then you'll get some stress relief, as well, and maybe some moving meditation. If you train them for their use as structural and combative templates, then the benefits go a LOT further, in my opinion. The way that I teach kata training, I have had students who didn't enjoy solo kata, certainly, but I have never had a student who felt it was useless, or not beneficial. From conversations I've had with them, and with other martial artists, this seems to stem from the fact that I provide purpose and context for the kata, without mysticism, symbolism, or romanticism--just practical reasons for doing what you are doing. It's easy to hate something and say that it is useless when you are never really told why you are doing it, or how you will benefit from it, after all.

Sounds like a fun time! I haven't been to a martial arts event like that since the "Before-Times," but I would love to get back to them. I struggle with a lot of health issues, myself, so I know how that can be--glad you still enjoyed the event, though!

Welcome to the forum!

Welcome to the forum!

There were two events in Okinawan history that tend to be referred to as "weapons bans," and used to support the "karate/kobudo was developed by farmers" story. The first is when the Okinawan king ordered that all military weapons be stored in centralized armories for distribution. This was done to prevent lesser warlords from easily raising armies against the king, in conjunction with a decree that required them to live in Shuri. This specifically excluded weapons that indicated your station, or family heirlooms, as well, IIRC. The seconds is when the Satsuma Clan, after invading Okinawa, banned firearms, specifically. They weren't too worried about an uprising, because they already conquered Okinawa, but firearms would shift the balance of power too much, so those had to be stopped from coming in. I believe there were still a handful of exceptions, to that. Neither of those two edicts actually has the effect of banning all--or even most--weaponry. Additionally, weapons would be specifically issued to those in the military, police, and guards, the majority of whom were nobility, and would likely also have had family weapons of their station. Many of them also ended up guarding royal gardens, and there would have been farming implements lying around--bored martial artists would definitely pick those up. Admittedly, that really only applies to the kama and kuwa. The eku and nunti would have been prevalent on boats, like the ones that those same nobles were sent to China on. Sai are definitively Chinese weapons, but the Okinawans traded with many Indo-Chinese peoples, and would have incorporated fighting arts and weapons from other places, as well. Tonfa, for example, are based on the mae sun sawk of Cambodia and Siam/Thailand. Then, we get into weapons like nunchaku, which were based on horse bridles (again, available to nobles), and tekko, which were based on stirrups. We also have plenty of art and written accounts depicting Okinawans training with and using weapons of many difference kinds, even after both of these edicts.

Used can be a bit tricky--your best bet is still going to be eBay, as Zaine mentions. New is easier, of course. I was going to suggest the DVDs I made with my late Sensei, but it appears the folks running his dojo, now, have removed them from Amazon so you can't buy them, anymore. If you search YouTube for "Waza Wednesday," you'll find a lot of the freely-available stuff that we made, though. Someone has also put the entirety of Nakazato Shugoro's karate kata video on YouTube, so you can watch the kata being performed, if nothing else.

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not sure if it helps, now, but I did get a bit of clarification on the kyusho/chibudi component. The way it was approached with me seems to be the way it's always been done in KishimotoDi--according to one of Kishimoto Soko's students, the idea of specific points and meridians was "preserved in Japanese jujutsu systems," and that particular student brought them into his teaching. Prior to that, it was just a "hit here and it hurts more" kind of approach.

In my old organization, when visiting the honbu dojo on Okinawa, it was standard practice for the highest ranking member of the visiting group to pass an envelope of money to the head of the organization. As far as I know, that was to pay membership dues and rank certification fees since the last visit, but it's possible there was more--it was above my pay grade to have more info than that. Everyone else just gave omiyage that were unique or indicative of where they came from.

Well, for clarity, I'll say that I don't technically have a connection to Motobu-Ryu, aside from the fact that I practice Motobu Udundi's Shuri Sanchin, which is part of the Bugeikan curriculum. I have done a lot of research, however, and definitely learned kakedameshi in my training, although not necessarily by that name. Kakedameshi is, without a doubt, my favorite way to spar. I definitely see value in other forms of sparring, though, and I do have students engage in them, as my late Sensei did; kickboxing-style, MMA-style, striker vs grappler, puncher vs kicker, grappling-only, grappling with strikes, clinch sparring, "kata randori," "Bully Sparring," scenario exercises, etc. Personally, I think all of these types of sparring have value, but they all have more value when they are approached as training methods, rather than as end goals, which is how most modern karate schools treat sparring. In my experience, kakedameshi can be approached in (essentially) two ways. One method is more-or-less what you see Bruce Lee do in Enter The Dragon--two people crossing the arms at the wrist and trying to attack each other from that position before the other can react or counter. This is, by all accounts, how Motobu Choki challenged Funakoshi Gichin in Tokyo, when he said that "to strike him would be too much," and instead threw Funakoshi to the ground with wrist locks several times. That isn't to say that Motobu didn't engage in other forms of kakedameshi, though, and we know that he engaged in other types of sparring, such as when he sparred with Matsumora Kosaku, and bloodied his teeth. Nagamine Shoshin, who trained with Motobu, described kakedameshi is being more like "very aggressive" Chinese tuishou (pushing hands) competitions, which included striking and locking. For those who don't know how tuishou is done, the competitors start with either both hands crossed at the wrists, or one hand crossed (as in kakie) with the other on their opponent's elbow, and they begin by moving their arms around, staying connected, before attempting to throw each other. Maeshiro Morinobu, who is still actively teaching on Okinawa, approaches it this way. This second approach is my preference, personally, as well. The benefits of this sort of sparring, over others, would be the enforcement of close-range engagement and the development of tactile sensitivity and muchimidi. It is, IMO, the best format for exploring and pressure-testing kata applications before putting them into context through things like "kata randori," "Bully Sparring," and scenario exercises.

The only times that I consider live blade work to be reasonable are solo practice, cutting practice, and careful partnered training in armor (eg. HEMA). In solo practice, it forces you to be very aware of the blade, and really cements the seriousness of blade work. In cutting, you obviously need a sharp edge to be able to cut your targets, but this also ties into solo practice. In HEMA, there are a number of techniques that are intended to be worked from "the bind," which is when two blades are physically crossed with each other (sort of like kakie), but blunt weapons don't "stick" to each other the way sharp ones do, because the edges can't bite into each other, so it simply isn't possible to effectively train those methods with blunt blades. The use of armor is pretty standard, though, and care is still taken to avoid accidents.

interesting, and thanks for the comment. yes covid and the shutdown was hard. I am in kind of the same boat as you, was getting everything ready to jump in full bore and had to put it on hold for a minute. hoping now is the time to start getting it all back on track....now everything is back up and running and im just wondering what could be done to expand a little as far as variety and quality of class, and what some people might would like added to add a little extra to the routine. are you still hoping to move into a commercial bldg and build a larger class base?, or is the home location enough? has having adult classes at 5:30 been convenient? I always had a hard time getting adults in that early due to work schedules and such?..... thank you and good luck with your plans Well, I definitely intend to eventually move into a commercial building, but I figure I will start up the group classes in my home dojo, first, and once I outgrow that, upgrade. Private lessons at 5:30 or 6pm have certainly been my most popular times for adults and older teens, so it stands to reason that group classes at those times would fit, as well. When I have run group classes, in the past, I have always started with warm-ups that progressively become actual short workouts. For example; start with simple mobility warm-ups, and maybe some jumping jacks or jogging laps, then some groundwork like bridging, shrimping, or sit-outs, then calisthenics like push-ups, sit-ups, or lunges, then something a bit more intense, like using hojo undo kigu (supplementary training tools), sprinting, or bagwork. Sometimes, I would also throw in tactile sensitivity drills, as well, or body conditioning, if the right people were in class. After that, I generally have them work a bit of solo kata. Occasionally, the class would be focused on working through all the kata that people know, but I tend to prefer having them work just whichever kata I'm going to be pulling material from in that class. Once we've gone through the kata a couple times, to make sure people are getting their structure and mechanics down, I have them pair up to work drills based on practical applications of movements from the kata they were just working. Sometimes, I would have them work the applications off of realistic attacks, and sometimes I would have them work off of platform drills, like kakie, parry-pass, block-pass-check/hubud-lubud, or the 360 Defense drill. Then, we're set for some type of sparring. I try to mix this up pretty regularly, because it's important to get a well-rounded sparring experience, and I find that it helps keep people from trying to just get good at sparring for the sake of sparring, instead of using it as a tool for learning and testing. Kakedameshi, "Bully Sparring," kickboxing-style, MMA-style, grappling, grappler vs striker, puncher vs kicker, someone secretly has a training knife, 2 vs 1, self-defense scenarios, etc. I have gotten some complaints that my classes are too rough, on occasion, but the majority of my adult students have been happy with them, and boredom is very rarely an issue. Based on student questions, I do occasionally delve into karate history, or finer points on how to apply certain techniques and why, and I'm sure that's boring for some, but it's good to squeeze some of that in, anyway, and nobody has actually complained about it.

COVID has made this a complicated situation, because I was supposed to open for group classes in April of 2020, but that obviously didn't happen, and I've only been running private lessons since then. My intent, however, is to run 45 minute classes for children (4:30-5:15pm) and 90 minute classes for adults (5:30-7pm), 3 times per week. I will be keeping classes small, for a while, as COVID lost me my chance at a commercial space and I'm teaching out of my home dojo, but that means that I don't really have to worry about breaking up classes by level. I also intend to incorporate sparring into most sessions, with the occasional session being fully-focused on sparring. Of course, the types of sparring vary.

I'll do my best to address your questions, but I will readily admit that I still have plenty to learn. While I'm one of very few people to have learned all 4 kata, I'm only cleared to teach 3 of them, so far, so I definitely have gaps to fill. Essentially, yes, but because the style has been preserved by an organization that also teaches other systems, it is pretty typical for practitioners to work additional material. The organization requires members to know Shuri Sanchin, for example, and many pick up Yamanni-Ryu bojutsu. The KishimotoDi material, by itself, however, is a pretty well-rounded collection, just within its four kata--at least, from an unarmed perspective. As I recall, Kishimoto Soko was skilled with bo and sai, but didn't teach them, which wasn't terribly uncommon for the time, so his students learned kobudo elsewhere. I would say it has a decent combination of the two, but there is certainly a lean toward grappling methods. Honestly, that is the case for all of the kata--there are definitely strikes involved, but they tend to be considered the "mean" options . As I have already learned some kyusho/chibudi from my Shorin-Ryu instructor, my KishimotoDi instructor hasn't really gone into it with me, but there are certainly applications from the kata that you are expected to use in conjunction with kyusho/chibudi. Striking the philtrum with the ipponken in Naihanchi, for example, or attacking the vagus nerve with the forearm, or kicking the sartorial nerve in the leg, or digging into the nerves between the knuckles when applying locks to the fingers (oral legend says that Kishimoto Soko liked to parry people's punches so that his ipponken hit between their knuckles, actually, but we all know how such legends can be). I don't generally see Okinawan arts are "pure," but as far as we know, there was no direct Chinese martial arts influence from "Bushi" Tachimura on. Given that, as we understand it, he trained with "Tode" Sakugawa, however, it stands to reason that there was an older Chinese influence involved--after all, how does when get the nickname "Chinese/Tang hand," without having any experience in Chinese martial arts? Plus, there's the general belief that Sakugawa trained either directly with the Chinese official known as "Kusanku," or indirectly through the Yara family of Chatan. Additionally, "Bushi" Tachimura's great or great-great grandfather (I'm not 100% sure which) was actually made some sort of royal enquiry clerk for the Sapposhi of 1756, which is the same one that the famous Kusanku was a member of. Not entirely sure what an "enquiry clerk" does, but he did receive gifts of calligraphy from the chief and vice envoys of China. Both Chinese and Japanese cultures and martial arts have been integrated into Okinawa for so long that it's hard to identify a clear delineation for when those influences came and went. The Bugeikan, which is the headquarters of KishimotoDi, also teaches Motobu Udundi, and while there are some similarities, I feel that they are fairly distinct arts--at least, in my limited experience with Motobu Udundi. They both have the use of body movement instead of hip rotation for power generation, and an emphasis on entering, certainly. That came about because of some unscrupulous individuals in more modern times. People started recording videos of demonstrations of the kata, and then trying to learn them from the videos and claim they knew the system, when in fact they had no idea what they were doing, which reflected poorly on the people who did. "Demonstration versions" for Passai and Kusanku were developed so that it would be easy to point out who had and who had not actually received proper training, and no one was supposed to make videos publicly available of either of those two kata. Now, Kusanku is okay, but Higa Kiyohiko Sensei still wants Tachimura no Passai kept offline. Nothing was hidden from students, and as far as I'm aware, you don't have to be a particularly special "inside student" to receive "secrets" of KishimotoDi--my instructor even taught some at a seminar back in 2020 that he asked to keep out of any videos or descriptions posted online, so I think it just comes down to legitimate in-person training. Higa Sensei's requirements for joining the Bugeikan are "learn Shuri Sanchin and don't lie about what you do or where you learned it." We had originally planned on a US/Mexico tour for Ulf Karlsson Shihan in 2023, but with COVID we are bumping it to 2024, so we haven't purchased tickets and set dates, just yet, but probably March-April of that year. I'm always happy to teach seminars, myself, but that can be discussed privately

Put a "game" at the end, and tell them they won't get to play it if they misbehave. Popular ones I've used, in the past, have been "Bulldog" (basically freeze tag, but the person who is It is on all fours, and to be unfrozen, someone has to kick your outstretched hand), "Artillery" (throw pads at them that they have to punch out of the air), "Bunny Rabbit Sumo" (they squat all the way down and can only push on each others' hands to knock each other over), and "Lightsaber Duels" (point fighting with Chanbara swords). I would usually put the obstacle course at the very beginning, as a warm up. And try to have them doing partnered basics more than solo basics, because then they have to help each other. You can also just sit the offending students out off to the side, and explain to their parents that they are being disruptive and disrespectful, if it comes down to it. Martial arts can help build discipline, but the parents need to support it, too.

Ah! Thanks for that! That pricing is actually pretty incredible! Most places I have been getting quotes from is well in excess of $200. Do you mind me asking how many your order was? That and also the size of the patch seems to be the two big "kickers" here. I did find a company called Netpro that I might end up going with. They are indicating your level of pricing and they can get them here within the timeframe I need them by. They are based out of China. We will see how it goes. I did, however, find a company called ColorPatch. They don't do embroidery. It is a dying process. According to what they are saying, it is longer lasting (even on a martial arts gi that gets washed alot) and the detail of the patch is greater. AND...the price is about half what has been quotes me...even with very small runs. I may end up ordering some from them just to see what they do look like as they have me curious about the process now. I am off to check out your recommendation now. As always, you are a gentleman and a scholar! Thank you. I ordered 100, IIRC, and they are 2in patches, with only one color besides black and white. Since the backing of the patch is white, that saved me a color. I'm interested to hear how the dye ones turn out, if you try them.

Welcome to the forum, and welcome back to karate!

Yeah, they are pricey! I ended up going with thestudio.com, because they were the cheapest option that would do the patches the way I wanted, but the minimum order still came out to around $120.

I appreciate the response and comments. Your hypothesis rings true to me. I would ask you to extrapolate that a little further if you don't mind...Let's assume for a moment that the above is correct. Do you think that this Kiko is or was, within any stylistic or regional art, taught as a complete art or do you think it was only "bits and pieces"....those elements that, for whatever reason, fit into what they were developing back in Okinawa (or was the limit of what they had been taught in China and absorbed)? While I have had an interest in this regard for quite some time, I became much more interested in it due to my studies in Taoism. In this school and in the martial arts the emanated from it, there are complete systems of qigong that cover meditation work, breath work, energy work, etc. But, since most of these systems and schools come from the north of China, our Okinawan forefathers would have had virtually no exposure to them. My thanks again for your time and thoughts on this. It's certainly possible that it was, at least at some point, a complete art. The Okinawans do value healthy living, after all, and I could certainly see the potential of those who went to China specifically seeking out such practices, and bringing them back, as well as the potential of Chinese emissaries or craftspeople, such as those who settled in Kumemura, teaching such things to people on Okinawa. Given the fact that there are still some people out there who teach Kiko, it stands to reason that (if my assumption was correct) someone in their martial, medicinal, or familial lineage would have known most if not all of a complete system. The fact that the Bubishi contains not just martial arts information, but medicinal and esoteric information related to health, certainly suggests that there is a likelihood of such a system being taught in conjunction with martial arts, as well.