Wastelander

Personally, I would treat it as an extra test, which is how my late Sensei and his Sensei treated promotions done while visiting the Shorinkan honbu dojo on Okinawa. Basically, if a student wants to test at a camp or while visiting another dojo, they can do that if they're eligible, but only AFTER they've been tested in my dojo first. I know that may sound a bit odd, but my late Sensei and his Sensei had higher standards than most in the organization, and I try to do the same, so a test with other instructors probably wouldn't cover everything that it should.

I'm also not a Shotokan practitioner, but I did get my start in a style that was largely based on Shotokan basics and I've done a fair bit of research on the development of karate. The practice of those sorts of basic drills (along with kumite) was taken from Kendo, where they use a stance very similar to a han-zenkutsu-dachi. When Shotokan co-opted those sorts of drills, they expanded the stance just as they did with all the stances in their kata, which they did do in order to emphasize leg strengthening in the absence of proper hojo undo.

I would clarify that a big reason for the discrepancies in kata curriculum in Shorin-Ryu is because Shorin-Ryu is a fairly generic name chosen to honor the Shaolin Temple, and the branches of Shorin-Ryu don't all share the same lineage. Of the 4 main branches of Shorin-Ryu, only one of them was a senior student of Itosu, and that's Chibana Chosin, who founded the Kobayashi branch. Kyan Chotoku, who founded Shobayashi, trained primarily with Matsumura Sokon and Matsumora Kosaku. Nagamine Shoshin, who founded Matsubayashi, trained primarily with Kyan and Motobu, which does put him in Itosu's lineage, but I wouldn't say he was a student of Itosu. Hohan Soken, who founded Matsumura Seito, supposedly trained with "Nabi" Matsumura, and then picked up some material from Chibana after the moved back to Okinawa, which also ties him to Itosu, but not directly. They all have some crossover with each other, but they all also trained with several other people, besides their primary instructors, so there is no singular line of Shorin-Ryu that can be traced back to a source, whereas all Goju-Ryu comes from Miyagi Chojun, and all Uechi-Ryu comes from Uechi Kanbun.

My first dojo only used the old dipped-foam sparring gear, which you haven't pictured. When I started training with my late Shorin-Ryu Sensei, he allowed many different kinds of sparring gear, so what people used largely depended on their preference and if they were competing or not. Folks who wanted to compete usually bought the dipped-foam gear, because that's what was allowed for most tournaments, but eventually the WKF became popular and a lot of them switched to that gear. Personally, I have been using MMA-style sparring gloves, which are a bit more padded than the competition gloves you have pictured, since 2010, and that is what I have my students buy. They provide enough padding to negate any need for headgear, which I prefer people not use because it increases brain damage, and still allows for all the grappling that we do.

Welcome to the forums!

The training camps I attended with my old organization were just as you describe--everyone trained the same style, but covered different subjects. Admittedly, many of the sessions were just running kata as a group and getting some basic corrections, or practicing the formal partner drills everyone already knew. When I've run events like it, in the past, though, I've been sure to invite instructors from many different styles, that way it's a more diverse experience. Yeah, in my experience there is usually anywhere from one to three "keynote presenters" at events like this. In the camps I went to with my old organization, they were always high-ranking instructors they flew in from Okinawa, sometimes including the head of the style. When I've run similar events, myself, I have always tried to get at least one high-profile instructor to join the line-up, but I haven't been able to afford to fly someone in from Okinawa, so they've always been domestic instructors. Sometimes, I wonder how much that actually matters to people. In my old organization, they made a HUGE deal out of training with the Okinawans, and I'm sure a lot of people really do see them as being inherently better karateka than westerners. Personally, there are more westerners that I think are incredible people to learn from. I imagine there is probably something similar in BJJ with instructors who are from Brazil, as opposed to other places? If it was a gasshuku, chances are high that there were other sessions going on, but if you were brought to help your instructor, it makes sense that you would have spent all of your time with him. You probably wouldn't have been given a program, either, if you were there as an assistant. It's definitely odd that they wouldn't announce the sessions as they went, though, so maybe it was just a seminar for your instructor and they called it a gasshuku? At the gasshuku I just attended, for example, everyone who paid in advance to attend got a program with the list of scheduled sessions, but people who paid at the door didn't get that packet, and they also announced which sessions were coming up next at the end of each session.

Welcome to the forums! Those definitely look like Shureido sai, to me. The big indicators for me are the flat moto, thick yoko, and plain round tsukagashira. There is always the possibility that they aren't Shureido, of course, since there are no markings to definitively confirm it, but they sure look like my late Sensei's sai.

For those unfamiliar, "gasshuku" or "training camps" are a pretty common practice in karate, where folks get together for multiple days (usually a weekend, but some last as long as a week) to train extensively with each other. Usually, there are many classes taught by various instructors covering multiple different subjects over the course of the camp. I'm sure this is done in other martial arts, as well, though I'm not sure how common it is. Personally, I find that these events can be a great experience, for a number of reasons, but they can also be disappointing, which is why I wanted to bring it up. Recently, I've been planning a Gasshuku for my organization that will be next summer, I've been invited to many that have been and are about to occur this summer, and I just attended one this past weekend, so the subject is at the forefront of my thoughts. These events are great opportunities to network and make new friends in the martial arts, because you obviously all know that you have at least one thing in common. You get to workout and cross arms with new people and it's a fun time. The question is--how much do you actually learn? Many of these events are just glorified kata workouts and kihon (basics) practice with big names in your style. It's a chance to get your picture taken with high ranking people and say you trained with them, but how much value are you actually getting? I'm curious, for those who have attended events like this, did you find the actual content of the events valuable? Did you really learn much? What were your favorite sessions or instructors, and what made them valuable to you? What could have been done better? If you haven't been to an event like this, what do you think would make you want to?

My first dojo had one of the Iron Arm tools, and it was nice, but definitely not worth the price. Since then, I've switched to the taketaba (bamboo bundle) and tetsutaba (iron bundle), which are cheap and easy to make, and work very well for solo conditioning. Personally, I found the taketaba to be too light for me, but it's a good introductory tool--simply buy a bunch of thin bamboo and bind them tightly together at one end with twine, and you're good to go. The only issue is that you'll have to periodically re-bind the twine, because it tends to work itself loose. Tetsutaba can be a little more involved to make, but I like them better. Get a short length of pipe and a cap (iron, copper, or PVC, doesn't really matter) to use as a handle, then buy a pack or two of surveying flags and some epoxy. Attach the cap to the pipe, fill it with epoxy, strip the flags so you have a bunch of steel wire and stuff them into the handle. You can put small rubber bands around the wire bundle and move them up and down to adjust the tension/firmness, which is really nice.

I've learned a little basic Japanese, in addition to the Japanese terminology used in karate, plus some Uchinaaguchi. I think it would be really cool to learn Uchinaaguchi and help preserve the language, but it's incredibly hard to find courses on it because Japan nearly killed it, and it would almost never be useful in day-to-day life. Japanese is much more widely used, but not where I live, so until I visit Okinawa, again, I wouldn't have much opportunity to use it. I do think that learning the language of your martial art does provide additional insights into the culture, though!

There are two exercises I use for that: 1. Find a railing or chair that is about as high as your hip, prop one foot on it, toes up, and practice pivoting on your supporting foot while twisting your "kicking" foot over to the side, then twist back. This isolates the foot pivot and hip rotation. 2. Chamber the kick and place it against a heavy bag, then push off the bag by pivoting and extending the kicking leg. This removes the impact component and puts your kicks under resistance.

I require jewelry to be removed, unless it's silicone or some other soft material. Hard jewelry is a hazard to the wearer and others, particularly when you're working at close range the way we do. You don't want to be strangled by your necklace, or get your finger caught in someone else's, nor do you want to have your finger degloved because you wore your wedding band while grappling.

On-Ko-Chi-Shin is a favorite Japanese/Okinawan proverb of mine, and it reminds me of the other quotes. One is "there is nothing new under the sun," which I can't remember the source of, another is "do not seek to follow in the footstep of the wise, seek what they sought," by Basho Matsuo, and the other is "tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire," by Gustav Mahler. To me, On-Ko-Chi-Shin is a reminder that no matter how far we advance and improve on what we've learned, we can always go back to older sources and learn more from them. We can even learn more from them than was originally intended, provided we follow the path that those sources laid out. As Bob rightly points out, this ties into Shu-Ha-Ri quite well, as it is a cyclical process.

Well, in my first dojo, the testing process took 2 days. One day was the written test, essays, and fitness requirements. I think that usually took around 3-4 hours. The second day was all day, at least 10 hours, depending on how many people were testing. My second dojo, though, took about 5-6 hours for the black belt test, including the time given for a written exam.

My late Sensei was big on tai tanren (body conditioning), and we worked the arms, legs, and body pretty regularly--enough that I wasn't out of my depth training with Kyokushin folks. It's definitely important, and should be touched on at least couple times a week, but it's uncomfortable/painful, and that doesn't usually do well in most commercial schools, which is why it's largely fallen out of favor. On top of that, the prevalence of point fighting has made it so tons of karateka have never and will never be hit or hit someone, so conditioning would be a waste of time for their competition preparations.

There is the "Naihanchi Ju no Kata" that, as far as I know, is a creation of Shimabukuro Katsuyuki: He was a student of Chibana Chosin and Higa Yuchoku, both of whom did not teach Naihanchi this way. Aside from that, there are some additional open-handed techniques in the Isshin-Ryu version of Naihanchi: https://youtu.be/MnJis1yIVLA?si=47jkvYixLvE55Qqi I have also seen open-handed versions in a particular branch of Shito-Ryu: Personally, I see all of these as being personal interpretations of the kata, rather than historical versions. Granted, that is partially because both of them are post-Itosu creations, and older versions (KishimotoDi, Matsumura Seito, and Tomari-Te) don't use these methods. I do, occasionally, play with using open hands in many of my kata, including Naihanchi, and I assume I'm not the only one. It certainly has value, even if it isn't historically accurate. For what it's worth, though, KishimotoDi's Tachimura no Naihanchi DOES use open-handed gedan-barai, where other versions use closed fists:

Yes and no. The applications for Tachimura no Naihanchi work because of the mechanics used in that kata, and those mechanics are generally not used in Itosu's kata. You can still use those applications, or take inspiration from them, but they won't totally fit the way the kata are practiced. There are, of course, a few that will work even if you change the mechanics, and those are the easiest to make a connection between the two styles. They are really made from Passai, Kusanku, and Chinto, more than Naihanchi, although Naihanchi does tie into Passai and Kusanku, historically. I'm sure that he considered applications when building the Pinan kata, but he was also using his Naha-Te (learned from Nagahama) to reshape the kata that he learned from Matsumura. I believe that is why there is such a significant difference between how Itosu's kata are performed and how KishimotoDi, or even Matsumura Seito or Ryukyu Kenpo are performed. The sweep in Gekisai is definitely similar to the scissor throws in Tachimura no Naihanchi, but is very upright, without any sinkin/rising action, and usually without much twisting. A more similar technique is actually the gedan-barai in Pinan Godan, just before the hammerfist/elbow sequence. You can ALWAYS use the applications from any style in your practice, and use it to help inform your training. Even if they don't exactly match up, they can provide inspiration or be useful tools, on their own.

I wouldn't say that Sanchin is necessarily the Naha version of Naihanchi, but they definitely do both act as fundamental kata for teaching structure and mechanics. Naihanchi is more directly combative than Sanchin, while Sanchin focuses much more on structure and mechanics than direct combative applications. In Naha-Te systems, they have a saying: "Do not look for applications in your Sanchin. Look for Sanchin in your applications." Conversely, in Shorin-Ryu, we say "Karate begins and ends with Naihanchi," because it is both structural/mechanical and combative. As I mentioned, the big things are structures and mechanics. Modern Shorin-Ryu Naihanchi has more in common with Sanchin than older versions, because Itosu Anko incorporated Naha-Te methodologies into his Shuri-Te. Either way, you're going to learn rooting and stance/stepping fundamentals, strong angles and positions of the joints of the body (chinkuchi), and power generation (rotation, sinking/rising, spinal whip, etc.). They share what I mentioned, above. The big difference is that Naihanchi explores a great assortment of combative techniques, while Sanchin focuses on a much smaller collection of combative techniques so it can emphasize everything else in greater depth. Some Shuri-Te and Tomari-Te practitioners actually do practice Sanchin. In Motobu Udundi, they practice Mutudi or Shuri-Te Sanchin, which is similar to the Naha-Te versions, but not quite the same. The versions I've seen from other Shuri-Te and Tomari-Te lineages tend to be more like Goju-Ryu Sanchin. The version of Sanchin practices in Uechi-Ryu is more like the Chinese versions, because Uechi-Ryu is really the Sam Chien form from Pangainoon kung fu. Supposedly, Miyagi Chojun (founder of Goju-Ryu) actually did practice and teach Naihanchi. I suspect it fell out of favor simply because it wasn't a Naha-Te kata, and after Miyagi's death, his students reconstructed his style, because he didn't teach the same material to every student. It isn't in Uechi-Ryu because Uechi-Ryu is really Pangainoon kung fu, which doesn't contain Naihanchi. It's a "style purity" thing. Depends on the version of Naihanchi you're practicing. If it's a modern Shorin-Ryu version, the stance is basically the same as Sanchin-dachi, just oriented straight side-to-side instead of at an angle. This means you can really incorporate the rotational power generation of Naihanchi into your Sanchin, and explore how that can provide power to the techniques you're doing in Sanchin. You can also carry over applications for some of the similar postures, such as chudan-uke and the mawashi-zuki.

Your best bet is finding or booking a seminar with someone. My teacher, Ulf Karlsson, Shihan, teaches pretty regularly throughout Europe, as well as when he goes to Okinawa, and I periodically teach it across the US. If you search on social media, you can find small groups of people practicing it here and there, as well. Aside from that, you can use reference videos to get started. Ulf Karlsson has put out a good reference video of the solo kata, showing it from multiple angles: He also has a video giving a nice overview of many different applications for the kata: And one that he did in preparation for a seminar we did about a decade ago: For a bit of a closer look, here is an example application from a seminar I taught several years ago: And a couple Waza Wednesday videos my late Sensei and I did on the subject:

It just so happens that I am one of the few people in the world teaching KishimotoDi, so I can actually answer your questions! KishimotoDi is much softer than both Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu, and doesn't use hip rotation to generate power, instead relying on twisting at the waist, sinking and rising in the stance, and stepping into the techniques. It doesn't have any ties to Goju-Ryu, at all, from an historical or curriculum point of view, but it does share 3 of its 4 kata with Shorin-Ryu; Naihanchi, Passai, and Kusanku. Of course, the versions practiced in KishimotoDi are notably distinct from modern Shorin-Ryu. Yes, although most of the tuidi-waza are techniques of opportunity, rather than something you actively seek out, and there is certainly less of it in KishimotoDi than in something like Motobu Udundi. Motobu Udundi is, as the name says, the "palace hand," practiced by the royal family and their close relatives, such as the Motobu family. While it does feature some of the same techniques as KishimotoDi, Motobu Udundi is based more on classical dances, and is more about the study of how to manipulate the body than about practicality, in my opinion. KishimotoDi is much more of a "get in, get rid of the bad guy, and get out" kind of system. "Todi" Sakugawa --> "Bushi" Tachimura --> Kishimoto Soko --> Higa Seitoku (founder of the Bugeikan) --> Higa Kiyohiko (current head of the Bugeikan) My KishimotoDi instructor, Ulf Karlsson, is the first non-Okinawan to be granted a Shihan license in the art, and has been training directly with Higa Kiyohiko. Noteably, this style is so small and niche that it didn't even have a name registered until 2011 (they just called it "Kishimoto's material," or "Kishimoto's Shuri-Te" before that), when Ulf and a few others suggested to Higa Sensei that the art was dying out, and that registering its name could help with preservation efforts. The four kata are: Tachimura no Naihanchi, Nidanbu, Tachimura no Passai, and Tachimura no Kusanku It only has 4 kata because that is the way karate used to be trained and taught--a smaller selection of kata, studied in greater depth. Many of the past Okinawan masters even wrote about this, saying that it was normal for karateka to only know a handful of kata, and that they would study each kata for years before moving on to the next one. Think about how many kata some of the notable masters taught. Matsumura Sokon taught Naihanchi, Passai, Kusanku, and Gojushiho. Uechi Kanbun only taught Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiryu before creating five more kata for his students. Motobu Choki only taught Naihanchi, Seisan, Passai, Wanshu, and Jitte, before he created Shirokuma. KishimotoDi has three overarching principles: issun hasureru (avoid by a sun/inch), taigii ichi (body and technique as one), and kobo ittai (simultaneous attack and defense). These are present in the way that all of the kata are applied. Naihanchi introduces fundamental mechanics, such as rotation and sinking/rising, fundamental footwork, primarily using kosa-dachi to avoid and enter against an attack, and basic 90 and 45 degree angles, along with tekko-gamae (steel turtle posture, aka meotode-gamae, husband and wife hands posture). It is also very throw-heavy. The rest of the kata build on these fundamentals, and explore finer angles, but they are all interconnected. Tachimura no Passai introduces sagurite-gamae (searching hands posture), and Tachimura no Kusanku introduces hotate-gamae (standing sail posture). Nidanbu was specifically designed to help connect Tachimura no Naihanchi to the other two koryu kata, so it shows variations of some techniques that sort of blend different kata together. Not at the moment, but I'm open to travel, and Ulf Karlsson is planning on a US/Mexico trip either next year or 2026, which I'm sure he'd be happy to extend to Canada. I'm also going to be teaching an online seminar on Tachimura no Naihanchi this saturday.

It's been a long time in the making, and I look forward to seeing it come to fruition! Thanks for all the work you do behind the scenes, Patrick!

There's an ebb and flow to discussion forums, in my experience. There are a lot of beginner questions and conversations, and over time they mature as the martial artists involved mature and grow, until new beginners start to come in, and a lot of the same conversations come up. The thing about that is that we get to see how the folks who've stuck around have evolved over time thanks to those discussions. It makes for a great community, as well!

I wouldn't say that it's vital, but it DEFINITELY makes things easier. As Montana said, parents will pay for their kids to do things that they won't pay for themselves to do, even if they are interested--the kids come first, and people generally see more benefit for kids training in martial arts, as well. If you think about it, most adults who train just want some exercise they enjoy, and maybe some self-defense skills. When it comes to their kids, though, they see all the other benefits: discipline, motor skills, coordination, balance, confidence, cultural exposure, competition, etc. Now, I do believe you can get adults to recognize all of those benefits for themselves, and run a successful program without young children, but I think it is MUCH harder. It's also impacted by the demographics in your area, which is outside of your control unless you can afford to move your program to a different area with better demographics. You can market it perfectly, but if the adults just don't have the funds, or have to work too much to have the time, it's not going to work out. That takes some serious market research, but it's definitely beneficial.

Thank you, everyone, for the kind words! It's been a wonderful journey, and I've been able to make some great friends along the way! I look forward to continuing on for another 10!

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