Wa-No-Michi

As I understand it, this was more to do with the political "climate" of the day. Fundamentally there is no difference between do and jutsu (in this perspective anyway), its just that the "do" thing at the time showed greater respect to the empire of Japan. But that's another thread entirely.

If you can avoid isolation from qualified instruction you should take every opportunity to do so, as others have advised. However, remote learning is not a new thing. In the 1960's here in the uk, many groups were formed in order to "study" karate, but without a regular instructor of any sorts. Bear in mind this is before the age of the internet, dvd, vhs and to and extent quality written publications. Dave Allsop for example - a high ranking Wado instructor here in the uk, explains on his website how he and some fellow Judo-ka formed a group that studied karate from whatever source they could (in the most part articles from the early Judo Magazines of the time). Arguably this didn't constitute a karate club, but back then, thats all they had. Even today, there are traditional / classical arts like Daito Ryu / Shindo Yoshin ryu which have "study groups" operating around the world. To err on the side of caution however, these are not commercial groups, but more a collective of like minded individuals who share a common interest. Two different things maybe. But if you can get acces to frequent instruction, take it. It's far easier at the end of the day.

If you trained within an Aikido group that ran their lessons along similar lines to that of Morei Ueshiba, I think it would be safe to say that you attended a Traditional "Aikido" class. However - what if you trained within a group that did "Aikido" techniques but took a modern approach to their teaching methods including training in street clothes etc.? Are they still traditional? Is it what we do that defines us as "traditional" or the way we do it?

I would say that you should add "Classical" to your list. IE from a karate / jujutsu perspective, the Koryu arts of Japan / Okinawa from which the traditional ways that we know of today were spawned.

I agree, thats why most good karate schools have various levels of paired kata that allow the student to realise the purpose of the techniques found within the solo katas against an opponent. But what these paired katas don't provide is the focus and correct movement that training in kata will instill. I don't think I said that Kata was the core of what makes karate (or Martial arts) more combative (or I am sorry if I did, because it isn't correct). It could be argued however that training in Kata is core to making Karate what it is, two different things maybe. But you and Nightowl are right, there are better ways to train today than kata and sorry about throwing my toys out of the pram earlier. I guess it was a little too much of the Christmas spirit. What I do know though is that without kata, Wado for example would not work quite as it does. It would simply end up as another homogenised form of "carrotey" on the competition circuit, and lose its identity along the way. I would hate that to happen, as for me it would loose its MO which is unique. Quite frankly, it does not concern me that I may not learning / teaching the most up to date and ultimate combative / self defense system(s) or techniques available. Wado is good for what it was designed for and kata is part of that design.

I am not a Californian, but my lessons are £ 4.00 ea = $ 3.00 per session. The cool thing is, there is no contract, you pay as you train.

Thats a joke btw NightOwl, just in case you were thinkin!

Leg breaks, arm breaks, chokes, kicks to the leg (including the knee), elbow strikes, punches to the face, and soccer kicks to someone on the ground (in the old PRIDE rules) are all allowed in mma. Strikes to the groin and eye gouges were once allowed as well but I only can think of a couple examples of them being used (and the guy who used it lost). All it takes is a little more pressure to turn an arm bar into an arm break on the street (the most recent UFC fight for the troops if you look it up online had someone get their arm broken). I can choke someone and let go when they tap out, or hold onto it for another 6 seconds and choke them out of consciousness. If you can't land a punch or kick on anyone during sparring, you wouldn't have much of a chance of landing an eye gouge or groin strike on a much harder to hit and low percentage target area. Ring fighting if nothing else teaches you timing- you can easily aim a punch for the throat (although this isn't as deadly as people make it out to be- but you are looking at a TKO if you get it right) instead of the head if you are fighting for your life, but you need to know the timing of a basic strike before trying for something more complicated. I've heard people say that they could take on 'sport' fighter in a real fight because they can use deadly force but...so can the sport fighter! And the sport fighter can show that they can apply strikes, grabs, and attacks when someone doesn't want them to, as well as avoid attacks themselves, no matter what technique the attack may be. Kata in my opinion and experience doesn't prepare you for this. I'm actually going to agree with you on this one. It isn't what I am looking for but kata and be a beautiful art form and form of physical meditation for many. Ok, you have convinced me. I will give up traditional Wado tomorrow and enroll in my nearest MMA school. Thank you for your guidance. Blige I cant beleive I wasted 30 years but hey ho! WNM.

I kinda thought that this was the goal of this thread in the first place, and why I was reluctant to throw fuel on such a pointless fire but, by invitation I did any way so more fool me I guess.

I would agree that in the case of a cage fighter, time practicing kata would better spent else where, but this actually raises another interesting point about kata. If you look at many of the styles that don't utilise kata, (or they did at some stage but have dropped them in favor of more productive training methods) ie Judo, BJJ etc., in many cases these styles have evolved with the sporting arena being among their highest priority. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing actually, but many pro Kata martial artists would argue that there are some techniques / methods found within kata which are purely self defense / survival techniques and are not easily transfered to the ring - due to how dangerous they are IE., elbow strikes and eye gouges etc., or that they are ineffectual in such arenas. There is therefore a risk that these oportunities could overlooked. You could argue that again these techniques could be "broken out" of the kata and practiced in isolation, but I think in the perfect world there should be a balance of kata in you training to embed correct form along with partner work to re-enforce these techniques. I think its also important to remember that when the likes of Itosu started to codify their karate (which arguably was the fore runner to the Karate most of us in the west refer to as "Traditional"), he did not see it as a comprehensive fighting system for use by one trained combatant against another in the fighting arena. He saw it more as method that could be practiced by the common man in order to defend himself against "Ruffians". Kata was seen as an essential vehicle in order to relay this. Karate is more than just a sport at the end of the day imo Finally, not wishing to get all "zen" like, but I also look at kata training as a method of training the mind as much as the body.

Do you think this will change as students start martial arts earlier, Michi? That there'll be too much time between promotions and the danger of losing students? Or do you find that in Wado there's a tendency for the students to be older (no younger than teenage years), so it's unlikely that it could change? Well, in my group anyway, we do not (as a rule) take students under the age of seven years of age. Between 7 and 16 the kyu grade examinations are done in two stages per grade (or mon grades), and students have to have a minumum of 24 training sessions / a minimmof 3 month break between each examination. In truth though, when you get to 3rd kyu in wado the technical requirements tend to be quite demanding and so therefore it is unlikely that even the most gifted student will travel between 3rd kyu and 1st dan in under 18 months - two years. Although "Junior" shodans are awarded, these will not be considered as "senior" Shodan until the age of 16. You can not grade for Nidan until you are 21 and as I say sandan is reserved for 30+ mainly because of the additional katas / pair work that you are expected to become familiar with between these grades. To be fair though, my group is not driven by gradings per se and there are many other things that keep the young guys focused including regular competitions and a diverse functional syllabus. Maybe we do loose students as a result, but then we are not a commercial organisation and I think that maintaining good Wado is the key driver behind our reasoning. We do that pretty well imo.

Minimum age for third dan in my group is thirty. I suppose grades mean different thing to different people/groups, but in traditional wado you would but hard pushed to get a "bonafide" sandan before you were thirty anyway.

Agreed.

I couldn't agree more. Karate is Karate at the end of the day.

In my view kata is not about blocking, punching, sweeping per se. Thats the an option 1 way to look at things. But of course, we are all entitled to our own points of view.

With respect, 3.5 years is no time at all, and sort of puts you in my category no.1. The vids you have posted are very nice, but its all about realising potential application through ongoing practice. Not watching what other people have figured out for themselves. Also, you have to understand that kata has purpose beyond just the immediately apparent. For example Naihanchi kata is an introduction inner circular stances, seishan is the progression of inner circular stances as in it adds forward movement plus the on off of dynamic tension, Chinto is the convergence of inner circular stances with the technical opulence of Kushanku (and thus all of the pinan katas). But as I say, you will not appreciate this from a book.

But you won't find the answer in a book. WNM

Well this is this problem and goes a long way to explaining how / why kata is so incorrectly reprented today. In the most part, this view is propagated by people who have: - 1. Never really trained in any serious Kata based ma before (or at least for long enough). 2. Not had a Instructor who is knowledgeable and experienced enough in order to be able explain the value of Kata and see it as a performance to look nice in competitions. 3. Worst of all, and sadly most common - combination of 1 and 2. Merry Xmas.

Unlike Tori, I am not surprised by most of the answers posted so far, but would have like to have seen more of the "trad" guys voice their opinion. (If there are many trad guys left that is) It will be no surprise to most of you that I consider the practice of Kata a key and vital component part to learning Wado-ryu. Please note it is not the the only part, but together with basics, pair work and free fighting it is the sum of the parts that makes the whole thing tick. As far as bunkai is concerned, this is such a well trodden path I feel reluctant to go down it again, but for the sake of the thread I guess we must. Bunkai is a process, not a list of techniques / applications or possibilities. If you do not practice kata you can not, and will not understand this process. You may be able to understand the value of applications explained in isolation and indeed put them to good use but this does not constitute Bunkai. Its a bit like only reading the last page of every book in order to get to the conclusion. Yes you will get there a lot quicker, but what would have missed? Personally I think that kata is far more than a moving history book, a repository of techniques or just a way to embed good muscle memory. Of course it is all of this, but its a lot more also. Its a constant source of reference that you take with you through your karate career, your views about them will change as your karate evolves and so therefore they grow with you as part of the "Shu-ha-ri" of things. A beginner will learn Pinan Shodan, in order to start to learn goods stances and co-ordinate techniques with multi directional movement. A purple belt (Intermediate grade) may practice the same kata in order to develop and improve upon the principle of "double moment" (Hips go one way as arms go another), a dan grade may practice the kata in order to allow him/her to deeper understanding and be prepared other more advanced katas / or Kuzushi (the application of techniques against a (partner). So, a bit like application, katas should not be trained in isolation, they are all small parts of the bigger jigsaw. This is why you should never learn one kata (for a grading or competition) and then move on to another, as if to discard the one you have learned. You should constantly revisit all of the katas you have learned in order to better understand them improve upon them. Its constant. Its also why, in most good Karate schools, as you progress through your gradings from 8th kyu to 3rd dan etc., you will probably do each kata at least three or four times as it shows that candidates are constantly practicing all Katas not just the ones they need for their relevant grading. Finally, anyone who has spent any time at all studying a traditional Japanese MA will know that learning how to move correctly is the key to success. It takes far longer to embed good movement than it does to learn individual techniques, and without kata - from a karate perspective, you would struggle. imo If Katas not your bag then fine, there is more than one way to skin a cat, but they work for me, my students and I love em. Merry xmas

Personally therefore, I cant see the value in hanging on to traditions such as "Belt" rankings if your art is not traditional. Or do you guys wanna have your cake and eat it as well.lol

Agreed, but we are talking about a qualification within traditional karate aren't we? Of course this is not the only way to measure this, but its the way it tends to be done in Trad Karate Circles. Otherwise, why don't we just have a wrestle off?

Also, we are on a karate forum aren't we? Karate is an art with a capital "A" that draws from the intrinsic qualities of the study of such, more than it does perhaps the perceived end result be that shiai / sd etc.

In SD /UFC etc., but if you want to study a trad ma you should do it the trad ma way imo (don't matter of you (tg) think its right or wrong). Bunkai is a process that you can only understand if you understand kata. Otherwise everything you are doing is "waza" technique, which is empty without true movement/purpose.

I kinda know what you mean, but would also question how exactly you could profess to understand exactly how better training methods exist in order to "encompass" Bunkai. Particularly if you don't take kata seriously? If "bunkai" is the bullet of karate then kata is the gun that fires that bullet. If you don't know how to handle that gun, well then you limit your chances of hitting the target imo. Of course there are lots of weapons to choose from, but from a trad Budo perspective that tends to be kata (solo and paired).

I think there is genuine merit in that approach tg, its a guarantor that your students are at the prescribed standard. Its just another way to the same result at the end of the day, but maybe its just me, but I think that a real fear that you "could" and "might" fail a grading is a positive driver. Its the journey that you take to mitigate the risk of failure, and therefore become a better karate-ka that is perhaps the real winner here. If a message is sent out along the lines that "hey, you know what you can mess up on your test... but they will still pass you!" then we are all wasting our time aren't we?