Wa-No-Michi

Actually, Tallgeese, you can vote, as the fourth choice that didn't originally appear is now there: "My art is not traditional and is right up-to-date" I had made an error when posting with the poll; Patrick corrected it. Thank you, Patrick! Can we add another one then ie - "My art is traditional, and with correct practice engenders good form that can be applied in the modern world"?

tg's right really..where do you start? The bubishi pre-dates Karate or at least Karate in its codified form. If its Karate history books you are interested in, then perhaps Harry Cook or Serge Mol might throw up a few positives. Bushi's our resident bookworm though, so he's probably the best qualified.

I have no doubt that I want to teach what I want to teach and how I choose to teach it. If its not what people want they will vote with their feet and leave. I hope however that I am a good enough instructor to allow people to realise the value of training the way I prefer, even if the actual reasons are not immediately apparent to them. I teach a system of karate, not a just a list of techniques. A good example of this perhaps, is the order in which kata is taught. After we have an understanding of the pinan katas, we can move on to learning the senior katas starting with Kushanku which is an amalgam of the pinans. After this we start to learn the Katas which contain inner circular stances starting with Naihanchi moving through Seishan and culminating in Chinto which is the combination of the inner circular stances (found in Naihanchi and Seishan) along with the variety of techniques / movement found in Kushanku... etc. etc. tg's falling asleep at this stage Of course you can learn / teach these katas in any order you want, or for that matter break out the individual techniques found within (in fact thats where your one steps etc comes from), but it the most part I think they have a greater value if they are taught systematically (IE in the order they are intended).

Well John, I can understand this thought process and I have tried on this forum to present a considered opinion in this area, however in the most part, it seems that any aspects of ma that do not have a direct correlation with the "street lethal" objectives as you put it, seem to be relegated to the realms of antiquity. You may have your work cut out here. I've all but given up really.

Don't think it was just counting though. I think the op said, she seemed to understand / be conversant in other terms. That aside, I guess as in instructor who sees his insurance premium go up year after year, I get a bit twitchy about knowing who trains / spars in my dojo. If they are a novice they are a novice, but if not you have a duty of care toward your other students.

TG - on reflection, my use of the word "objectives" in this sentence was perhaps not the best, I should have left it at "method" or "process". The end results are probably the same, but the ways to get there differ. With some "ways", the journey can take longer, but arguably the routes themselves can be more fulfilling (for some anyway). But I say again, these journeys can (and should imo) be augmented with sd specific training along the way. As BM96 says in most good systems this is (or should be) implied anyway.

This is not a bad place to start. https://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/001/001/index.html WNM

Yes, And as I said, a lot of the examples you state, can (and should IMO) be taught along side the ryu-ha (style / school) specific learning objectives / methods. Its the latter I am referring to when I say that the principles contained within take more than 6 months to absorb, but without them all you are doing imo is no more than practicing a list of self defense techniques. Which is not a bad thing (and makes it no less an MA). Its all about striking a good balance, and what you want out of your ma.

I guess some of you guys work to a different value system to me. Deception may have its place when used in a SD situation Truestar, but I struggle to see the connection here. The language thing doesn't sit well with me tallgeese (as you can see), I just cant see why a TKD person would be conversant in Japanese Karate terms. And yet claim they have NO karate experience.

Take Wado and I dont think the foundations transfer easily. I would say that student would be at about 3rd kyu before they start to get these down. This would mean training for about 2 years. Does Wado fail in your eyes?

Are you guys married or something. All you do is agree with one and other. Kumite is a perfectly acceptable way to establish whether a circular block technique is going to work for you. If it dont you will get hit. Simple as.

Sorry, not cool in my eyes, as she failed to disclose her full ma training background / abilities to you and thats naughty. Also, not too good on your part either ReadyAndFocussed. Personally I would spot anyone who has had any form of serious ma training a country mile away if they trained in my dojo, and if they were a dan grade it would have been very apparent imo. You also mention in your first post that your suspicions were aroused when she counted / spoke in Japanese, and yet it turns out she is actually a dan grade in Korean TKD. Hmm! Are you having us on ReadyAndFocussed?

How would you test that? I would probably use some Reality Based approaches to scenario based training to see how things worked. How would you test it? Kumite. Although your "Reality Based approaches to scenario based training" thingy sounds quite cool as well.

I think that this is where the confusion lies. There is a difference between learning effective self-defense, and mastering a Martial Arts style. The latter should take a lifetime; the former should not. Acquiring good, solid self-defense skills, from any MA, should not take years to acquire. It should come in the first 6 months of training, I think, at least. Now, I am not talking about being able to enter a ring and win an MMA match, or being a Master. I am talking about being able to either keep yourself out of a fight, being able to do enough to survive and live another day. Hmm! I am with joe on this one. I accept that learning any MA should go hand in glove with self protection (as this is more about the tactics of avoiding confrontation (and how to manage etc.)), but I would be reluctant to put a time scale on the use of the words "Self Defense" (or level of proficiency for that matter). Many schools are built on systems designed to engender correct foundations (movement, timing, co-ordination etc.), as the key to learning good form. This often takes a higher priority (in the early stages at least) over techniques or methods that could be viewed as more direct self defense applications. The theory being of course that learn good form, and you will be able to apply it to any technique / situation "instinctively". I guess it comes down to what you want out of your MA, and thats the great thing about it. I personally feel that you can strike a balance between the two, and most good systems/schools will have it built in to their syllabus' anyway. In addition to this though, is all of the "added value" that comes with the study of an MA and lifelong goals and values that accompany it.

We are discussing the possible application to the moves found in Pinan (Heian) Yondan, and we are at the latter stages after we have performed the 3 Soto-Uke in Nekoashi dachi. Sorry Tallgeese that is the three outer blocks in a cat stance. There is then a turn 225 deg (180 deg in Shoto I think). In Wado we combine this with a kake uke or (hook hand block) with one hand and a downward palm block with the other. In Shoto I think its two Shuto (knife hand blocks). Bushido-mans reasoning behind incorporating a throw into the turning motion is always worth thinking about me thinks. Certainly the opportunity to "off balance" your opponent (Kuzushi) and to strike/soften your opponent (Atemi) arises in the preceding techniques. I always like to look for the opportunity to apply Atemi and or Kuzushi into all my techniques as they facilitate the breaking your opponents "Shesei" or posture. Vital in order to do a good throw. So with your opponents Shesei broken, perhaps a throw is what comes next....?

How would you test that?

Anyone, anyone, Bueller? Come on guys, this is a Karate Forum, it says so at the top of the page. This is basic stuff. Isn't it?

That's a good analogy fujau, I look forward to seeing some gings as it would appear that we are on a similar wavelength. Interesting you should mention healing in an earlier post, as Otsuka was a "bone setter" along side being a martial artist. A handful of Wado dojo still teach resuscitation techniques, but that is very rare.

Errrh actually no i find this very interesting. What are the principles of wado In lau we have 8 main power generations (gings) of sink, swallow, spit, stamp, bounce, shake, pull & startle plus the 16 subdivides gings it gets very complicated. Does wado have any of these concepts or distinct power generations ? You can look at any art on the surface but you never understand the depth of the style which is some times missing or overlooked or forgotten. Competitions are fine when you are younger lol but alot of people sometimes forget the true art and what it is about and forget what it was designed for Basically to destroy your oppenent in the quickest way I dont know if this has been watered down in the so called sporting world for being PC But i really love the history and development of the styles from the start to the never ending and the understanding of kyusho and relaying that into your forms/katas and the healing side of qi gong is like opening pandoras box. Without seeing examples of the power generation techniques you mention (shake, pull startle etc.), I could not really say whether Wado employs the same processes to generate power. The principles I was referring to encompass more that power generation per se although at the end of the day, all roads lead to Rome I suppose. Anyway, here are a couple web sites that list most of these: https://www.sannoya.com/principles.htm This following site details mores than just the basic principles and if you click on the arrow next to the description you can read further info. https://www.art-of-budo.com/techniques.htm Cheers WNM

Thats why I asked what group he is part of as some are not part of the EKF

Is there any variations in the main 3 organizations when I mean variations i mean Katas one organization this way another that. And if so why the reason for the question we are always taught nothing is wrong as long as it is done properly with in reason does Karate instill a very structured syllabus and nothing is different through the organizations. Hi fujau, I would have to say that kata wise, there is very little variation between the three major groups. Obviously you are always going to get individuals putting their own stamp on things to an extent, but in the most part the defining principles of Wado can be seen in all three. There is little written about Wado, and less by Otsuka himself, who wrote in total 2 books I believe. One has only been printed in Japanese and the other features the 9 main katas of Wado. You also have to bear in mind that Otsuka developed his art over a considerable length of time, so we see some of his older students (Mr Suzuki etc) embark on his journey with a slightly different Wado to say someone like Mr Takagi who is considerably younger. Both were students of Otsuka, but arguably the Karate they learned differs slightly. Otsuka is also quoted as saying something to the tune of "Wado is not complete". Indicating that it would and should continue to evolve. To understand this, you need to know about the Japanese concept of "Shu-Ha-Ri" and how it applies to both the Karate-ka and the Karate style itself. There is a commonly held belief that within the system of Wado that Otsuka created, there are areas that have been intentionally left loose to allow for this process. So given its very nature, there is bound to be some variation between the Wado practiced in each group. The key thing though is the Wado principles remain constant. Bet you wish you hadn't asked now

Hi Mike, What Wado group are you with?

Wow yeah small world Neville Wray is still there taller than ever and still does lau Keven Brewton has left now and still does kick boxing i believe he spends more time in the states. Not that i know him you just here it through the grapevine Lau Gar has never been kick boxing par say there is a lot more than meet the eye when you fight a lau fighter admittedly I am probably the worst to demonstrate ha ha But we still fight in a street traditional way. Not the films lol I will never leave lau it is my roots my blood. I was just interested in Karate power generation I travel up and down the country attending courses and extra training with the likes of Ian waite and tom muncy who came in the Uk last year there roots are in Karate and Kenpo and other japanese styles I know they are not the same. But you meet new people learning different stuff. Very much what was said in the earlier post. about learning chen it sometimes takes anoter style to learn about your own. ie we all can speak english but if you try and learn french or another language it often makes you understand english better because you start cross referencing between language. In reference to wado someone told me that there was a split I think about 1990s could be wrong Kevin Brewton!!! I knew it was something like that!! Your passion for Lau sounds very much like mine for Wado, from what I understand of Lau it is also an art with great depth. I agree with your take on learning from other arts to appreciate / better understand yours, as (primarily for this reason) I also study jujutsu and kenjutsu, but not as often as I would like. Only so many hours in the day. FYI, there is still only one style of Wado, but (like most other major styles) there is more than one organisation that practice Otsuka's art. Today, the JKF Wadokai, Wado-ryu Renmei and Wado Kokusai are considered to be the three major groups.

If you are based in the UK, I think I can remember you guys on the open comp circuit in the 80s, as thats when I used to compete, although I seem to remember then, Lau Gar was more like Kick Boxing. At the time there was a guy called Neville Ray (sp?) who headed up the uk branch with another guys called Kevin ??? ... can't remember his surname. Small world. So anyway Fujau, I sense there is more to your inquiries than just being vaguely interested in Karate. Are you thinking of starting training in Karate and trying to find one that is closest to your Lau Gar roots

There is only one style of Wado. The first Video is not Wado, Its Matsubayashi Ryu.