Wa-No-Michi

Hi fujau, They are from two different systems, so they will be performed differently. The Wado version is (as you can see) performed by Hiroji Fukazawa who is a senior instructor with Mr Suzuki's group - Wado Kokusai Karate-Do Remni. In answer to your question, there are other short range techniques (shorter than the ones shown), but I think it is important to remember that the moves we have talked about so far (in Karate anyway) are techniques in Katas. Without going into detail about why Katas are performed, in short the techniques shown in these Katas are not necessarily how they are performed in application. Perhaps a better example can be seen in some of these paired katas. Kihon Kumite as these are called, contain many short range techniques (for in fighting), but again bear in mind these are katas so the further application could be different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH_HJDQWpOc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iyZoqPYXIM&feature=related Enjoy

Woohoo! You yudansha! Enjoy WNM

You can apply additional "trauma" to the area being punched if you combine a circular (usually downward) motion to your 7/10 punch. In my group, this will often be referred to as - leaving the energy in your opponent, but as Bushido_man suggests, you have to put it in there in the first place.

To say that power is produced one way and one way only would be wrong. Does power come from the hips... yes but not solely. Do you have to be correctly rooted to the floor?... depends on how much pushing power you want your technique to produce. Think about trying to push a car without a good solid footing. Do you always have to be firmly connected to the floor?... no but the techniques used here tend to be less powerful (in terms of pushing power) but use greater speed / timing and more direct targeting to more vulnerable points - Atemi Waza. Thus less penetration is required in order to achieve the desired effect. In answer to your question I dont think there is any specific name for these types of punches. A variety of techniques could be applied this way. Unknownstyle chooses a good Kata in Naihanchi, as it is practiced in order to train "Sharp" power techniques using the smallest amount of hip rotation. I have heard some instructors call these punches "choku-tsuki" which means direct thrust because of it very immediate and fast application. Wado's Tobikomi tsuki and Nagashi tsuki utilise the same principles.

I am not buying this one at all, really. It looked like a set-up act, to me. I just don't buy into the transfer of internal energy into another object. I am with bushido_man on this one. I think it projects the wrong impression also. To be honest, my interpretation of chi (ki) probably differs from yours fujau, but I can't help sense from your posts that you are trying to suggest that somehow Chinese arts have a deeper understanding of the "ethereal" strengths contained within ma. It doesn't take a great deal of experience in any ma to realise that remaining relaxed during any physical activity will promote a greater bio-mechanical efficiency. Sorry to be the boring git here, but there are absolutely no techniques that are unique to one system, or for that matter an inner force that is not realised by any good martial system in one shape or another. Its how your system promotes these techniques that may differ. Its all about basic physics at the end of the day, with the right mindset and good honest training.

Errm. Should that be honour with a "u". lol Just kidding big man. Well done to you all.

Yes classic, whilst grabbing and pulling opponents arms down and to the side? A good way to off balance your opponent (kuzushi). Also could be a release from katetori (lapel grab) at this stage followed by hizageri or maegeri. Next is 225 deg turn - with otoshi / kake uke combo in nekoashi. I see lots of potential in this set along with the transition from the previous combo.

Ok, theorising about the wrongs, rights, advantages and disadvantages of bunkai aside, we should get back on topic. I think we were talking about pinan Yondan.... So, after you have performed the tenohira-uke - tate uraken combo, you have the two sets of Jodan soto uke - maegeri - double chudan tsuki combos. After these, comes a really juicy bit. ie the 3 x sotouke / otoshiuke in nekoashi, followed by the double sotouke jodan - hiza geri renraku. Any thoughts on these?

Good find swadoryu2000, This sort of falls in line with my way of thinking - Taken from the article - "The reason why is that the ways of thrusting and blocking - that is to say, the techniques of attack and defense - have innumerable variations. To create kumite containing all of the techniques in each and every one of their variations is impossible." Your pre arranged kumite should reflect basic application of techniques found within Kata, and therefore give you a good understanding of what you are doing and why. Because of this, trying to create / re-enact endless interpretations of techniques is counter productive as they are immeasurable in number. You are in effect wasting your time when it could better spent actually practicing the kata. Also there is a risk of letting your imagination run wild, and your interpretations taking you away from the the intended movement / form held within the Kata its self (IE Embusen etc). So in effect, your pre arranged kumite is the study of application of technique, whilst kata is the study (and honing) of technique and the principles of movement contained therein. With the correct balance understanding of both, the Karate-ka should be able to re-act "instinctively" to any of the "innumerable" attacks he/she may encounter. ... and this is where your Jiyu Kumite (free fighting) comes into play.

But still talked about on a Karate forum?? I guess that Karate means something different in the US?

Well I would certainly agree, that kata that is not taught well and by a person that doesn't really know how to teach them (and the purpose), is a waste of time. I think however they do have a tremendous value - maybe this value is difficult to see in modern MA terms though, but as part of a complete system, yes they do have value imo. I think you also have to bear in mind that Kihon or Basic line work style training is relatively modern in Karate terms, and prior to its inception all basic techniques were transmitted via Kata. So therefore, is there an argument that if you have basic line drills to hone technique and pair work to learn how to apply them, is Kata redundant? To my way of thinking it most certainly isn't, as its the bridge between the two. Its how your system uses this bridge that is the key and how it is applied to your karate training. A bit of traditional Karate bumf for you Tallgeese.... The word "Bunkai" is a little misunderstood or misused sometimes today as strictly speaking it doesn't mean application. Bunkai is the process of analysis, or dissection. The objective is to "realise" more practical, flexible and instinctive (free) movements from within the kata. Traditionally in order to do this, there are stages that are usually followed these include: Kaisetsu = Application of moves as they appear in their classical form. Kaishaku = Interpretation of the moves found within the classical form. Different schools use different processes to achieve the same end result. In my Wado group for example, I would say that most of the "Kaishaku" or interpretation bit, is done through Kumite (fighting) - initially through various stages of Yakusoku (pre arranged) kumite and also Jiyu (free) fighting. I bet you are none the wiser after that then Tallgeese!!

Why do you think you school doesn't do too much form application? Because no one was shown application. Simple as that. The forms are used to for technique development, which would go along with movement, and we do one-steps that are referred to as our "self-defense techniques" , and then free sparring and board breaking go into our testing requirements.The GM of our association also has some Ho Sin Sul put together, but our school never practices it, except once in a blue moon. So, I look for other ways to find applications. Interesting... So do you feel therefore that your school is not as comprehensive as you would like in this respect. It is a shame the GM is reluctant to transmit the Ho Sin Sul he has formulated - Maybe you should approach him and find out why. I can understand now however why you would look for to other sources if they not being offered to you by your school, however I would also have to ask whether you feel you are getting value for money by sticking with your current school? Each to their own of course.

Why do you think you school doesn't do too much form application?

And before the inevitable onslaught of "Bunkai is the heart of Kata" thing happens, please bear in mind that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Just because you don't practice the process of bunkai, doesn't mean that the meaning of the techniques found within are lost to you. Other processes exist, they are plentiful, you just have to find what suits you. imo

In a nutshell... movement. Of course you have to "realise" these movements (and techniques contained within) by applying them against an opponent. But in Wado we tend to refer to this as Kaisetsu (or physical explanation) of each technique. This differs from Bunkai imo, as it is literally performed as it appears in the Kata - without adaptation. A bit like DWX was explaining re her TKD Hyungs (sp?). At risk of putting this a bit simplistically, perhaps Wado katas were a way to ingrain correct movement into the muscle memory in much the same way as boxers may shadow box?

Actually I am with you tallgeese. As a Wado guy the importance of Kata isnt bunkai, it lies elsewhere. We validate our combative movements through the process of partner work, as in fact do many of the traditional okinawan karates as well. Unfortunately the word "bunkai" has been Jumped upon by many western authors as a way to peddle their wares, but in reality it means something completely different. Ultimately this leaves a lot of people "confused" as to what the process of bunkai actually is, how to approach it, and where it fits into their training regime. So not as to miss the boat that everyone else is on, they jump on it! But to my mind if it gets the gray cells working there isn't any harm... [edit] As long as it is part of a well balanced diet.

Yes, I mentioned Kime in both my previous posts. The subject of Kime is a bit of a moot point in Karate circles. Like you say moriniuk, in some styles the use of it is heavily promoted, wheres in others (mine included) its use is so small it is practically immesurable. Many senior Wado instructors also argue that it doesnt exists at all. It comes back the the type (hard / soft) style thing. Its like when you hit a suspended punch bag and you make the chain hum.

I did mention that it was a personal viewpoint, but if it works for you then great. Bushido_man - To my mind you are better off training with the sort of things you are learning in your Aikido class specifically, rather than trying to figure out where the techniques you have learned can be addopted into your kata training.

Hi WNM I never said anything mystical energy transfer this is what i was referring to sorry should of shown the link first these are the chinese way the second link is a tai chi form the fa ging or jing is where the body reverbs with the strike like a shake just wondered if you had that sort of thing in Karate thats all Please there is no mystic super powers Hmmm! maybe not, however there may be highly tuned powers of persuasion being used in the first vid. It reminds me a little bit of the Kiai master vids. That said I am not entirely cynical as yes these type of punches do exist in Karate. They dont have a specific name (as far as I am aware) but the do emphasis speed and relaxation. We often refer to it a leaving the energy in your oponent. There is a vertical fist strike in Seishan kata that is best delivered in a relaxed "circular motion" this is said to be performed with "virtually" no apparent Kime. Remember also there is a huge range of Karate styles varying from soft circular (internal styles) to hard linear styles.

All punches (karate or otherwise) are the sum of kinetic, potential and rotational energy. So yes Karate has "Energy" punches. There is a bit more to it than an energy punch than kinetic, potential and rotational energy. Dont get me wrong you guys do punch with tremendous power but i was talking to a guy the other day and he mentioned that Karate has a similar punch what tcma call fa ging energy transfer but he called it something different in Japanese he said that karate has it but not many people are aware of it. I dont know about this as I am not to familiar with Karate. The punch is not desigined to blast it ways through the target it is designed strike internal so the pain felt not on the surface but on organs to disrupt the function Tai chi does it a lot especially in chen any thoughts Many thanks Hi fujau, Actually, I was being facetious. Of course there is a lot more to a punch than the generating of energy such as; timing, distance, striking point, penetration depth and kime (focus) etc, etc. But thats down to how you apply the techniques. Nothing to do with a mystical transfer of energy that is unique to any one style.

Cool, Whilst I am an advocate of Atemi Waza, personally I think that the Kyusho thing can be hit and mis. Also most good systems of ma should automatically include drills to train Kusushi, Katame and Nage etc., so I would exercise caution in straying a little too far from the embusen of the kata in order to facilitate this.

Now we're talking. Personally I don't care whether they are famous (in the movies sense) or not. What is imporatnt to me is whether they are any good.

All punches (karate or otherwise) are the sum of kinetic, potential and rotational energy. So yes Karate has "Energy" punches.

Can you give us an example of some of your creations?

"Tenohira-uke" or Palm Block. Although some perform as a grab.