sensei8

And from: When I said "don't want to understand it" maybe I should have said "don't want to understand it further" or "don't want to work with it anymore". I did say that to those of you who train using methods without kata and can effectively defend yourself, then great. I think it's great you choose to do so... as I totally understand that the "kata" method of training does not work for everyone. I wasn't trying to make a point about it being the "be all end all" way, only that it DOES work if taught, studied, and trained correctly. I don't think anyone is bagging on those that do train kata for "real" purposes. What is coming into question is whether or not there is a better way to do it, and if there is, why not adapt? Correct study of kata is precisely about adaptation. As many of us "kata" guys train longer and harder through our kata, gain more experience, etc, more and more bunkai/oyo are revealed. These revelations are in the mind of the practitioner. Anytime we have an epiphany of a new bunkai/oyo, we put it to the test of whether it's practical & effective or not. If not, then it's discarded. As we continue our revelation of bunkai/oyo, our fighting style and training methods adapt to meet it (we must alter our training method to include these "new" bunkai/oyo). Too often when I'm confronted with this argument, "why not adapt" equals "why can't you see that my way is better". I'm not saying de facto that's what you're doing, only that that's my experience. I usually counter with, if my method allows me to adapt and be effective in my own self-defense, why do I need to change my method? As I mentioned before, I have no bone with those that don't train in the same methods that we kata guys do. Again, if it works for you, great. This really isn't kata in the sense that we are speaking of it here. Not all drill work is kata. In the argument that you are making, then your own kihon training is essentially kata training, but I think we know that isn't really the case. There is a difference between learning and drilling technique, and training kata. If we go with your argument here, then Karate doesn't have 3 K's, but only 2; kata and kumite. I think the real question is, and tallgeese alluded to it, is this: Is it really necessary to learn forms before learning self-defense applications? In my opinion, it isn't. Another way to describe form or kata is "structure". The structure of any technique we train with must be practiced over and over for many reasons, including muscle memory, posture / control of center / balance, power, proper application, and so on. Boxers do it, wrestlers do it, MMAs do it, MAs do it. Even in kihon training we are working to improve the form or structure of our techniques. IMHO, the only practical difference between kihon and kata is that one is sequential form / structure training and the other is non-sequential form / structure training. Quite often the two are merged a bit in our training; we merge them in various combos with kumite, as well. For instance, kata is merged with kumite in the form of partner kata like the Yakusoku Kumite kata. Kumite is merged with kihon in any sort of partner drills or partner free-form drills. If it's not necessary to learn form / structure of any technique, and then proper application of said technique, no matter one's training methods, why learn the technique at all? IMHO, the three of us (tallgeese, bushido_man96, myself) share a common mindset when it comes to self-defense training. I know there are many more here on KF that do, as well, I just haven't had the pleasure of having a discussion with them all, yet. This has been a great discussion. Journey on guys! Solid post!!

But what if you hadn't trained in 15 odd years? Let's put it this way: you begin your MA training under an instructor, who let's say is a 5th degree black belt. He has to move, retire, and falls out of training, due to whatever life throws at us. Would you not respect him as your instructor throughout the rest of your life? Would you tell him that you now out rank him, and no longer respect the knowledge and experiences he passed on to you as his student? Or, do would you still look at him as that 5th degree black belt that took you under his tutelage all those years ago? Only the individual practitioner can answer these question!! It's not written on some stone as the MA gospel truth. In your questions, you'll receive an unlimited number of answers.

NO!! Black belts of that type will struggle deeply against a kyu ranked student of the lowest level.

Imho... Any form and/or kata that doesn't contain Bunkai or the like is empty and useless across the board. Kata isn't for the next rank test!! Again, IMHO!! I concur. Nonetheless, the the three K's should be learnt together; none before the others or separate.

The key is being respectful when you go about it. Asking a question just between you and the instructor can be a better option than blurting something out in the middle of class. Every scenario is different, so make sure to approach each one accordingly.Yes, however, the question asked might be a question that other students were afraid to ask for whatever the reason(s). Be respectful, but ask nonetheless!!

Same with me!!

I hate to beat-up this topic, but, others within the Shindokan Hombu's hierarchy, have officially submitted me to a hearing to discuss my refusal of wearing my awarded Kudan by our Hombu. I told those concerned that, while I thank them all for my Kudan, I don't consider myself a Kudan; I'm Hachidan, nothing more!! I'll wear the rank only during official occasions that demand it of me per our By-Laws and the like, no other times warrant it, imho. I'm not Kudan because Dai-Soke didn't promote me to this, and I still feel unworthy of it unless it had come from him. I went through all of their red tape and through all of their hoops, but, imho, that's where it ends and that's where it needs to end. I don't depend on outwardly identifiers because Shindokan is in my heart; through and through. Politics make me sick!! So, I ask... What's wrong with me?? What's my problem?? Aaaarrrrrggggghhhhhhhhhh!!

In a nomenclature kind of sense, it can be both. I have a black belt because I am a black belt....OR...I'm a black belt because I have a black belt. Either you are or you are not!! Walking on the floor with your black belt tells all that you're a black belt at first impressions, but, the truth is quickly discovered that while you're wearing a black belt, your level of experience doesn't match to the advertisement wrapped around your waist. However, it can also be discovered that you're wearing a black belt and your experience does match to the advertisement around your waist; in that, you are a black belt through and through. Heart can't be denied; experience truly comes from the heart. Did you pay $5 for a black belt at the local MA supply store, or did you pay for your black belt through many years of shedding your blood, sweat, and tears!! True black belts can't be denied, however, false black belts are denied.

Learning from a book is dependant on the individuals learning curve, so, yes, it's possible, but not recommended because feedback is essentially vital to the growth of that MAists betterment. I can learn math from a book, but I'd have a much clearer understanding if I had a teacher to properly guide my learning. Depends on the teaching quality of the instructor. I've seen some pretty good ATA instructors, and I've seen some pretty bad ATA instructors. So, you can gain some solid depth after any length of time, but is that quality effective across the board. If the quality is sub-par, then even after some length of time, the quality of the student will still remain sub-par and then, bad muscle memory will be quite difficult to escape from. Imho, not all McDojo's are bad in their quality, content, and context. It's just that their brand management isn't always about turning out quality MAists, no, it's the quality of their bank account. For the most part that I've seen concerning Mc Dojo's is that everyone passes no matter what and imho, that's only giving their students false security concerning their MA's ability. The streets is the wrong place to find that out after you've been in that type of sub-par learning/teaching environment for many, many years. Everyone here at KF has their own opinions, but the decision remains yours. I wish you the most success in reaching your final decision. Hang in there!!

Look in the yellow pages, Chinese MA can still be found. Chinese MA, like Kung-Fu will never be forgotten because it's so engrained in our society.

I sincerely believe that "Gongfu" or Kung-Fu will never be forgotten because it's too much engrained in our society, therefore, permanent.

No Kata equals no karate!! These things can be adjusted at any given time instantly as needed. The things that kata trains us are vital outside of the safety of any dojo because kata gave me transitional understanding outside of the prescribed movements of any said kata. These prescribed movements are the key to the door, and once the door is opened in understanding and discovering the unforeseen Bunkai/Oyo, adjustments that you speak up become effortless. True, however, kata is a training tool, and it's about time students understand that. One has to train outside of the kata, but then, one will also have to return to that kata training to chip away and clean the air of any uncertain elements that still might exist. Kata is modern and effective as a training tool. I don't do kata for trophies, no, I train in kata because it opens up many other possibilities. People speak ill about kata because they don't understand it as it is meant to be understood. Again, no kata equals no karate!!

True. However, Dan rank can be taken away. Well, it can if you're a Dan holder from Shindokan. A Godan, for example, can be reduced to a Yondan if said individual didn't successfully pass their PIP (Personal Improvement Plan) as prescribed by our Hombu, after any said practitioner was found to have violated any given rule/policies.

If the standards have been lessened by the individual by their premeditated actions, then that individual must be held accountable. Otherwise, the standards mean nothing!!

As with any MA, including JKD, the art is only as effective as that one practitioner performing it. Some practitioners are excellent vehicles of the art in which they represent, while others aren't. We've only one chance to make that lasting impression of any said art, and JKD isn't an exception. From what I've studied and from what I've learned about JKD from some very well versed practitioners of JKD is this. Bruce's methodology as well as his ideology isn't birthed from his syllabus, but from the individual practitioner. Bruce created a vehicle for its practitioners to explore the many possibilities for THAT practitioner, and that practitioner alone. "Absorb what is useful, discard the rest!" This directs the JKD practitioner to discover things that work for them, and the things of JKD that don't work for that practitioner, well, they're not forced to assimilate each and every crossed 't' or every dotted 'i'. Does that lessen JKD? No! Again, any MA is only as effective as the [next] practitioner.

I believe that any said technique can't survive on its own merits. By that I mean, any said technique must have something to aide it. For example, a punch by the use of only the arm lacks quality. A punch will need to depend on ones legs, hips, posture, alignment, and so on and so forth to complete said punch. Your thoughts, please,

But you want to go to your MA school, right? Well, they both teach something of great value...so...learning and training are quite the same thing. You have to find the good of it among all of the bad, and you might see that there's more good than bad. Hang in there!!

Solid post!!

Imho... Mass is nothing without properly executed techniques.

Why do you think that a Dan rank wouldn't want to spar with a Kyu rank?

I don't think mass will make a difference because the technique must be performed properly first!!

Every MAist has a core style of the MA!! It's what we do effectively after that determines ones journey!! Do what you feel works for you!! Don't be absorbed in what pleases others because it's your journey!!

I'm never surprised, but rather, I'm educated!! Just as soon as I was able to wrap around my brain that Bunkai/Oyo is forever extremely open to effective applications. I eagerly await for my next Bunkai education!!

Very, very interesting, to say the least; I enjoyed them both. Thank you for posting the links!!

Within the history of Shindokan, and it's Hombu, rank HAS been taken away; demotion. For example, my most senior student was demoted several years ago by our Hombu for lying on the application for a upcoming testing cycle. Without going into a great deal of information, our Hombu has demoted 6 of varying Dan ranks for various serious infractions, and the first one was done in 1966. Rank isn't forever, however, the knowledge is forever!! Mess up serious enough to warrant said actions, our Hombu will demote rank.