hobbitbob

If you can find it, Harry Cook's book is a great source for the politics involved in the first split in 1957, and the latter one in 1987.

It is the same problem the JKA had when Nakayama died. One strong person held the organization together. After his death, everyone wanted to run the organization.

Watches, earrings, chains, etc... take them off! Congratulations on day one. It never gets easier, but it does get less confusing.

In tournaments, if you make a mistake, make it with good Kime, I always say! Several years ago, when I was a 3d or 2d kyu, I entered a tournament and planned to do kusanku (Wado), I'm not sure how I did it, but I started with Kusanku and ended with Bassai. I took second. I realized my mistake as I was finishing, but I kept going and ahd good kime. In the years that have passed I have seen similar things happen,a dn I always give the benefit of the doubt in points when the person maintains their focus and dignity.

Time for some new friends.

The Okinawan styles do Kotekite, mutual striking. Its actually sort of enjoyable, in a sick twisted, "I've been doing Karate for far to long" sort of way.

TJS, I don't come here to argue. Good night.

Post WWII shotokan does not include ground fighting. Okinawan karate, from which Shotokan is derived, does. I would hesitate to "go to ground" in most circumstances. Either you would be kicked to death by your assailant's friends, cut on glass on the sidewalk, or injured on the concrete. TJS, you seem to be on a "my style is better than anyone else's" mission, and nothing anyone else says will convince you otherwise. That atitude alone, however, often leads to defeat. I don't know that any style is "best," but some are better at some things then others. Lets leave it at that, allright?

I must get this book! I think that the "Kata Catalogue" movement began with Mabinu Kenwa, who began collecting Kata that he felt were in danger of being forgotten. It is certainly better to know one Kata well, instead of twenty poorly!

Gedan Barai is an excellent example. If it is a block, where is the block, in the chaber, or in the finshed execution? ARe you more likely to use this movement ot block a kick, or to strike the groin?

Kuji Kiri is used in Shingon Bhuddism. See John Stevens: "The Marathon Monks of Mount Hiei" New York, Shambala Press, 1978. Theoretically they are adaptations of Tibetan Bhuddism and Shinto. If youa re looking for "power" I would suggest an ever-ready rechargeable battery.

No, sparring is the best preperation for a fight. period..look at any world class fighter..they how they fight..they dont do katas to prepare for a fight. Nor are they likely to prevail in a "street" encounter aginst a group or against an armed individual. I will agree with you that sparring is wonderful preparation for boxing/kickboxing/wrestling, etc... I, like many others, am more interested in self defence from the perspective of the average individual, not that of the prizefighter. To be honbest, in 17 years of EMS experience, I have not seen many prizefighter types do very well in self defence encounters. Boxers get thrown to the ground or kicked. Wrestlers take their opponents to the ground, then injure themselves on pavement or are set upon by their adversairy's friends. Kickboxers kick high and are taken to the ground, etc... I also wonder if you have any experience with Kata Bunkai other than the "block then punch" interperetations? If you haven't, then I understand why you would make the above comment. Several posts above the point was made that many people do not teach kata as self defence, but as a means for advancing to the next rank, or as a sort of interperative dance. This is not effective kata training. It is fluff. the other adavantage on derives form kata is an appreciation of what techniwues might work in different situations. The Boxer is limited to mid-long range. The Wrestler to close range. Kata contain techniques appropriate for varying ranges of attack. Lastly, Kata are important when viewed as a part of the greater concept of "Budo," which stresses perfection of charater amd the purging of violent actions from one's personality. I realize that it is often difficult for people to see beyond the outer violent aspects of martial arts, and the popularity of the NHB phenomenon is a stark example of this. Most of us haev no wish to injure others, or to be injured ourselves. There is an old saying, "there is no first hand in Karate," and for this reason the waza containied in Kata are always in response to an attack. While I'm aware that one can become an effective fighter by going to the nearest biker bar every night and picking fight after fight, that person will not be a martial artist. Instead, he will be a thug. I have no desire to be a thug. Having looked at you profile, and seeing that you do Taekwon-do and Krav Maga, I would hazard a guess that you have never worked with effective Bunkai that you are aware of. The drills used in Krav Maga, i.e. escapes from holds, dealing with weapon armed opponents, are exactly what one does when one practices Bunkai and Oyo. For some reason most Korean stylists are locked into the block/pinch/kick model of martial arts. I don't know if it was an unwillingness on the part of teh Japanese instructors of the TKD originators, or,as I suspect, the unwillingness of the Japanese' own Okinawan instructors to teach them Bunkai and Oyo. Either way, most TKD practitioners have never had a chance to see Kata as anything other than interperative dance.

I think that there is a popular misconception out there (still) that "sparring" is practice for "fighting." This is a dangerous misconception to have. Sparring's benefits include teaching distancing and timing, as well as the ability to get hit and not be shocked. Sparring does NOT teach one how to fight. Kata Bunkai are used at my dojo to teach self defence, and by extension, "fighting." A recent example (yesterday, in fact!) was the Goju kata Seipai. We began at the beginning (two handed lapel grab) and continued all the way through. the important thing to remember during this sort of training is that the choice of Oyo are but one of many possible interperetations. There is no "only correcvt" way to intereperet the techniques. Beer monster, by Kamae I am speaking of the "tournament fighting stance" that many people assume they will have time to take in a self defence encounter. I'm unfamiliar with Ian Abernathy, do tell....

\ YUUUUCCCKKKKKK!!!!!

Eyes, Solar Plexus, Groin (in men and women), Shoulders, Knees, Elbows, Trachea, Floating Ribs, C-3 through 7, Coronal Suture, Carotid Sinuses,Ankles. Kyusho are good, but I question the validity of targets that must be struck during the right time of day in the right season.

Self defence, as I have always understood it, is the avoidance of fighting situations. Violence should always be a last resort (too bad our government doesn't think so, but that's another story ) . Crossing the street when a dodgy looking character approaches is an excellent example, but merely crossing the street, without maintaining awareness, is counterproductive. In yet another Baltimore story (and I lived in a "good" neighborhood!) I was returning from work and walking from the bus stop to my building, when I saw a chap waving a baseball bat and singing drunkenly. I crossed the street, and accelerated my walking speed. Drunky-poo crossed as well,and began shouting curses, then charged. I turned into the attack and did something, I have no idea what. Drunky-poo ended up on the sidewalk with a broken knee and wrist. I called 911 like a good citizen, filled out a statement, and, suprisingly, my statement was supported by someone in a nearby house who saw what had happened. It would have been nice of her to call the police, but I guess that would have been expecting too much, eh? The moral of this story (ohter than don't live in Baltimore) is that I maintained awareness. Crossing the street bought me time to plan.

Flail, is there a Tsuruoka Dojo near you? I believe his organization has a school in Winnipeg. The people I haev met from his organization have their heads on right,and will teach you good Karate-jutsu, while teaching overall Karate-Do.

We'll see how dedicated a martial artist you are after the first knee to the ribs! Hopefully you will end up like the rest of us and your response will be: "Wait, do that again...I want to see how your did that!" I'm not too big to apologize when I'm wrong. Good luck! $50.00 a month is good for Tucson! It isn't easy to find anything for $50.00 a month here in Denver,and is unheard of on the East Coast. I think I'm jealous.

I have to do a volte face on this one. The guy appears to be legitimate in his organization. I would have to add that caution should be taken, as the following article casts suspicion on the whole "Ninjutsu" subject. http://koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html Ninjutsu: is it koryu bujutsu? excerpts from the correspondence of Ron Beaubien and Dr. Karl Friday assembled by Diane Skoss We've been accused of unreasonable prejudice against the popular "ninjutsu"-derived arts. To avoid having to repeatedly answer charges of bias, I've assembled a few other independent researchers' thoughts on the matter. Basically, it is our opinion that modern-day ninjutsu and ninjutsu-derived arts are not koryu bujutsu. They are not based on a continuous transmission of technique and culture. Koryu.com covers koryu bujutsu. That doesn't mean that arts we don't cover are not worthwhile. We just don't cover them. Let me say this again, since it seems some people don't understand. We do not cover ninjutsu! The art and those derived from it do not fall into our definition of the koryu bujutsu. Period. If you want to define the koryu differently, that's fine. Just don't ask us to change our definition, which is based on considerable first-hand experience and decades of research in Japanese source material. Please do not trouble yourself to write us to try and convince us to change our minds. It will not work. We have made every effort to be as low-key as possible on the issue of "Is ninjutsu koryu?" We do not stress or advertise our position. That's because we sincerely believe that if your training is working for you then it is none of our business. However, if you come to us and ask whether we consider ninjutsu or the Bujinkan-derived arts to be koryu--well, we can only provide our honest opinion. Please, please, please don't waste your time or ours. We really have seen the material relating to this issue; unless you happen to be a Japanese scholar who delves into ancient makimono, you won't turn up something we haven't seen and considered. Again, just because we don't share the same opinion doesn't mean that we are not all doing useful and good training. Yoroshiku onegaishimasu. I really appreciate your consideration! Why don't members of the Bujinkan and similar groups demonstrate at major Japanese classical martial arts demonstrations? Not long after E-budo was launched an insightful observer asked on one of the forums why none of the Hatsumi-derived arts ever demonstrated at the major classical martial arts demonstrations. My colleague Ron Beaubien, a martial arts researcher, resident in Japan, posted the following reply (reprinted with his permission): Maybe I can shed a little light on the subject. I am a member of both the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai here in Japan, although I am not speaking officially for either of the two organizations here. It is my understanding that a school must be a member of the respective organization to be able to demonstrate at their embu (although there has been a one time exception in the past for some Chinese martial arts I believe). A person cannot join either the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai (the oldest koryu organization) nor the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai as an individual. The entire school joins as a whole. The soke of a koryu school here in Japan wishing to join either of these organizations applies for membership must submit their school's documents (history, lineage, and other important information usually in the form of scrolls) for verification. The documents are independently scrutinized by a panel of experts for accuracy. As a general rule, it seems that any ryuha wanting to join either of the aforementioned organizations, must be able to document their claims to at least prior to the beginning of the Meiji Period (1868). I also believe that the historical claims of the school wishing to enter are also checked as well in order to be accepted. Now there are a few schools in the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and Nihon Kobudo Kyokai that do have for lack of a better word, "ninjutsu" in their respective curriculums (and thus have been verified). Katori Shinto-ryu does have some ninjutsu (can also be read shinobijutsu) teachings and Tatsumi-ryu Hyoho apparently also has some as well (although I am unsure at this time if they are classified under "monomi" in the curriculum or just not labeled at all). These techniques are reserved for high level students of the school and are not demonstrated to the public. None of the ninjutsu organizations mentioned (Bujinkan, Genyokan, Jinenkan) are members of either organization to the best of my knowledge. However, it seems that Dr. Hatsumi of the Bujinkan did try to become a member of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai in the past. Ellis Amdur, who is a well known martial arts research and has spent 13 years in Japan and is the holder of a shihan license in Toda-ha Buko-ryu Naginatajutsu and inkajo in Araki-ryu, had something to say on this topic recently on rec.martial-arts: Dr. Hatsumi was asked many years ago to provide documentation of some of his lineage for admittance to the Kobudo Shinkokai, perhaps the most reliable of the major organizations of traditional Japanese martial arts, and according to Donn Draeger, in a conversation to me, he was not able to provide documentation which proved his lineage to their satisfaction. Thus, there are uncertain areas in Dr. Hatsumi's lineage. (Amdur, Ellis. "Re: KOGA NINJITSU or NINJUTSU (whichever you prefer )" rec.martial-arts. 1999/06/09). You can double check this by searching the past messages of rec.martial-arts at: deja.com. There are also quite a few inaccuracies with the histories of many of the schools that teach "ninjutsu" as known in the West. The following is a part of a conversation between a Mr. Vlad Zotta and Dr. Karl Friday of the University of Georgia, who not only is a history professor specializing in Japan but is also a menkyo kaiden in Kashima Shin-ryu, on the subject of Dr. Hatsumi and ninjutsu: Q: Sensei Hatsumi never synthesized espionage techniques into Ninjutsu. Sensei Hatsumi is soke in 9 Ninjutsu schools: TOGAKURE RYU NINJUTSU 34TH SOKE, GYOKKO RYU KOSSHIJUTSU 28TH SOKE, KUKISHINDEN RYU HAPPO HIKENJUTSU 26TH SOKE. Dr. Friday: These are just 3 out of 9. Problem is that if he is the 34th soke it means logically that there where 33 more sokes before him. If this school were a modern one it means they'd have to switch every almost three years which didn't happen. That might be persuasive logic if there were any documentation to substantiate Hatsumi's claim to 33 predecessors. But there is none--as I noted earlier, no document for the Togakure-ryu that predates the Meiji period (or rather, none that survived the scrutiny of independent experts). Moreover, the genealogies claimed by Hatsumi (and by his teacher Takamatsu Toshitsugu) are highly suspect. The Katori-Shinto-ryu and the Kashima-Shinryu, two of the oldest classical bugei schools in Japan, are currently in their 20th and 19th generations. The Owari branch of the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu is in its 21st. The Jikishin-kageryu is in its 18th. All of these schools date back to the late 15th or mid 16th century, the very dawn of the organized bugei ryuha phenomenon. How is it that the Togakure-ryu has passed through 34 generations. And why has the Kumogakure-ryu passed though only 14? The Takamatsu-Hatsumi genealogy for the Shinden Fudo-ryu traces things back 25 generations to the mid 11th century, which is at least 400 years earlier than any historian accepts the existence of any bugei ryuha--and at least two centuries before the scale and organization of warfare in Japan would make espionage activity valuable enough for anyone to seriously consider developing methods for carrying it out. Hatsumi's titles to most of the ryuha he claims to be soke for come from Takamatsu Toshitsugu, who in turn claimed to have inherited them from Toda Masamitsu. It's worth noting, in this context, that in the third edition of the Bugei ryuha daijiten Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his "ninpo" ryuha and teachings from "ninja-gokko" ("childhood ninja games")..." (Friday, Karl Dr. "Re: Ninja and Ninjato" on the Japanese Sword Art Mailing List. May 19th, 1999.). You can search the archives of the Japan Sword Art Mailing List at: http://testinfo.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?S1=iaido-l for more information on the subject. This exchange also appeared in the June-July-Aug 1999 Journal of Japanese Sword Arts. So to answer the question, no. None of the ninjutsu organizations you mentioned are recognized by the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai nor the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai to my knowledge. Although the histories of many of the schools claiming to teach ninjutsu are apparently less than accurate, it does not mean that what these people do is without merit. Dr. Hatsumi may be a wonderful teacher and the Bujinkan's techniques may be very applicable as well. The same goes for the other ninjutsu organizations. For some people these points may be more important to them than their school's historical claims. Ron Beaubien Ninjutsu History? And in another "Question & Answer" excerpt by Dr. Karl Friday (Professor of History at the University of Georgia and author of Hired Swords and Legacies of the Sword) from the June-July-Aug 1999 Journal of Japanese Sword Arts (reproduced with permission of the author) we have a bit on "Ninjutsu History." Q: I was told once that there never really was "ninja"--in fact the story I got was that an American invented the whole ninja "thing" and sold it to the Japanese who loved the idea and made a lot of B movies about ninja and their secret ways. Any comments? A: The lack of reliable documents to work with makes ninja and ninjutsu a very difficult subject to research, and the ninja movie and novel phenomenon gives the whole topic a cartoonish aura that further dissuades academic historians from looking into it. Thus, there isn't much out there to read, other than what has been written by modern teachers of "ninjutsu," none of whom have any credentials as historians. In English, you're simply SOL; in Japanese there are a few decent books and articles around, but for the most part information on ninja has to be culled in bits and snippets from studies on other topics. The most reliable reconstructions of "ninja" history suggest that "ninja" denotes a function, not a special kind of warrior--ninja WERE samurai (a term, with BTW, didn't designate a class until the Tokugawa period--AFTER the warfare of the late medieval period had ended--before that it designated only an occupation) performing "ninja" work. The idea that distinctive, specialized ninjutsu ryuha existed prior to modern times is highly suspect. Specialization--focusing on one art, such as the use of sword or spear--was a phenomenon of the Tokugawa period, when Japan was at peace and bugei training was undertaken more for reasons of traditionalism or self-development than for practical use. Prior to that no warrior could afford to specialize--any more than today's infantrymen can afford to learn only one weapon. Given the pomposity of tone that developed in samurai philosophy during this period, arts of concealment and espionage strike me as exceedingly odd choice for samurai seeking spiritual development or contact with past glories. It IS possible, or course, that a few small specialist traditions developed during this period (possibly to serve the interests of would-be spies or thieves) but this would have been a very small market and a difficult one for teachers to reach and sustain. In any event, there is NO extant documentation for ninjutsu ryuha (including the documents that Hatsumi Masaaki claims to possess) that independent experts (historians or authorities on diplomatics) have been able to authenticate as dating from prior to the late 19th century. On the other hand, even the movie-style ninja have a much longer history than the movies. Ninja shows, ninja houses (sort of like American "haunted houses" at carnivals), and ninja novels and stories were popular by the middle of the Tokugawa period. The "ninja" performers may have created the genre completely out of whole cloth, or they may have built on genuine lore derived from old spymasters. Either way, however, it's clear that much of the lore underlying both modern ninja movies and modern ninja schools has both a long history AND little basis in reality outside the theatre. Karl Friday The material presented here is copyright ©1999 Ron Beaubien and copyright ©1999 Dr. Karl Friday.

Conservative pro-war armchair belligerant hawk types who glory in civillian deaths, and weep alligator tears at US and British casualties!

I do reccomend the use of videos as a "technique bank." I have the JKA , and Wado kata series of tapes from Champ, mainly as a way of remining myself of technical nuances,and also as a way to do a "quick comparison" of stylistic points.

Read Donn Draeger' s book "Classical Japanese Fighting Arts."It has a good section on the Ninja. Most of Stephen Hayes' books are good too. Ninja weren't a "class" per se. Ninjutsu (literally: Stealth techniques) were a series of techniques in classical Bujutsu dealing with stealth, information gathering, sabotage,etc.. Classical ryu like the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu include "Ninjutsu" techniques. Much of what the modern world considers to be "Ninjutsu" can be traced directly to the imagination of Mike Stone and his script for "Enter the Ninja." Sho Kosugi, who starred in most of the Ninja movies of the 80s, as well as in the short lived TV series "The Master," is actually a student of Demura Fumio, a Shito-Ryu Karateka. Hatsumi Masaaki, head of Bujinkan, has spent a lot of time attempting to introduce real Ninjutsu to the world. In the US his top students are Bob Bussey, in Omaha, NE, and Stephen hayes, in LA. As for your black clad Seals, if they were a recruiting team, then they might have had special uniforms. Night Camo BDUs actually exist. I'll try to find a link to post. they are green, with a grid pattern and spots.

The 'ninja costume" originated in the early Samurai films in the 1920s (I reccommend them, the early films are like moving versions of Ukiyo-e prints! ). The need arose for easily identifiable "bad guys." The solution was to dress the Ninja in the outfits worn by scenery handlers in classical Japanese theatre. The costume signified "invisibility," since one was supposed to ignore the chaps changing the scenery. Black is often worn by special operation police for its uniformity,and its intimidation factor. Most Seals I know wore regular woodland camo BDU's for field ops. Delta and Seal Team Six often wear slate grey BDUs for hostage recue ops and exercises. Most of the Delta guys I knew whilst in the Army had long hair and beards,and dressed in jeans and t-shirts! Most likely Ninja wore sturdy clothing in earth tones. Often persimmon juice was used to darken clothing. Interestingly enough, in the 1930s Karate and Judo Gi were treated with persimmon extract, which was thought to add strength to the fabric. This was continued up through the late 1950s, and explains the slightly beige cast of early Karate Gi (not to be confused with the slightly beige look of an unwashed Karate gi!).

Osu, Rich. Vince Neill is another man who is putting the Karate back into Shotokan. I ahd a chance to attend a seminar of his in the early 1990s,and was very impressed. As far as Kokutsu Dachi goes, If you think of it as actually a Kiba Dachi in the example I gave, it makes sense. IF you take it in the original context of Neko Ashi Dachi, then the logical explanation for the Haiwan Shuto Uke is a turn into a lunging grab...or many others!

" Jeffrey Prather has trained for over 30 years in Japanese martial arts and is one of a very few 13th-degree blackbelt Shihan (master or gentleman instructor) in the world" Run, don't walk quickly away......PHONY!!!!!!!!! http://www.tucson-shotokan.com/ ISKF Dojo. Reputable. http://www.itosukai.org/ Shito Ryu, affiliated with Demura Fumio. http://www.azwado.com/mainframe.html Ray hughes. In Scottsdale, so sort of a hike, but well worth the drive. The Bujinkan Organization (Hatsumi's group) is affiliated with Nipon Butokukai, who are the major Rank certification body for Koryu Bujutsu. There is no such thing as a 13th degree blackbelt. I e-mailed the Bujinkan asking about this guy, and got a "we have no idea who he is, but thanks for letting us know he's claiming rank from us" message. Bujinkan is not shy about legal action! I f I were a beginner, I would go with the Shito Ryu group. Best of luck. Let us all know how things turn out!