hobbitbob

If I were you, I would quit while I wasn't too far behind....

Impressive. One reason I'm going to Grad school at CU Boulder is becaues my Brother in Law, who along with my sister, raised me from age 14-18,and is more like a father than anything else, is in the end stages of MS. He is almost completely wheelschair bound,and transfers with great difficulty. It is because of this difficulty that I turned down acceptance to the History dept. at Yale,and returned home. Each day is a struggle for him,and as the spring morphs into summer, he does worse. He has given up. I will share your story with him, in hopes that it will provide some motivation.

Ahh..Paulie Zink....the man, the simian impersonator!

Er...no. The Pinan forms are likely to have been derived from "Channan." Given the close connection between Fujain White Crane and Okinawan Karate, it is likely that the kata derived from the Okinawan originals, like the Shotokan kata used in Tang Soo Do, are influenced by Crane. In some forms, like Gankaku, and Gojushiho (both Dai and Sho),and Unsu, the influences are obvious. I have read that there exist Tiger Fist influences in the Naihanchi Kata, but am unsure what these are. Supposedly, the precurser to Suparinpei, Pechurin, was a Dragon style form. The To'on Ryu version of Suparimpei is said to be closer to the original version than the one seen in Goju. Uechi Ryu is said to derive from a combination of Tiger and Crane fist styles. In Kojo Ryu, a lesser known family style in Okinawa, the use of various "postures" based upon animal influences is readily apparrent. According to David Soared, a Denver area Shaolin instructor, most Okinawan Karate techniques can be traced to "bird" styles popular in Southern China in the 17th and 18th Centuries.

Isshin ryu Man, have you had difficulty with Kata judging due to unfamiliarity with your Kata? When I have judged Kata in the past, I have often had trouble adequately evaluating Okinawan stylists. Now that I are one ( ), I have realised that some things I "took off" for, such as hip rotation, stance height, etc, were actually examples of proper technique.

Arrgh...still looking for it. Not forgotten, just in one of many boxes. I'll send you the bibliography I used once I get back from Karate tonight.

I think the "sine wave" thing came about because the ITF wanted to distance itself from Karate. If one reads interviews with Choi, he often became very agitated when comparisons between TKD and Karate were made. He even went so far as to claim Dan ranking from Funakoshi as an example of how he was able to "invent" a systemt that was "superior" to Karate. Unfortunately his claims of Dan ranking in Karate seem to be as groundless as his claims of having invented TKD. What I have often found amusing is how the "sine wave" motion in the forms seems to follow the rythm of the "Macarena!"

This is soooo amusing! One of our Brown belts who is a rather petite, pixielike young lady (who would probably throw one of her patented "ribcruncher" yoko kekomi at me if she saw me refer to her as "pixielike") was at Sears earlier this year looking at dishwashers, adn since it was a warm January day, was wearing short sleeves. We had done kotekite (conditioning) the night before, so her arms were a nice shade of purple! Apparently the salesman was verrry solicitous, and offered that his girlfriend worked at a domestic crisis hotline, etc... I'm sure the fact that she has just hit her fourth month of Pregnancy a tthe time,and was beginning to show aided in the man's assumption that she was a damsel in distress! She told us that it took a great deal of effort (including an impormptu demonstration of Bassai and Gojushiho) to convince him that her husband wasn't beating her up.

Indeed. After I had posted the list, I remebered Musashi's work. Also I should include the Hagakure,and Suzuki Daisetsu's work Zen And The Art Of The Sword.

Chang Hon (blue cottage) is the name of the set of forms generated by Lee Nam Suk at the request of Choi Hong Hee in the late 1950s. Lee took movements form Shotokan Kata and added kicking techniques. This form set, whch Choi took credit for, is used by the ITF (with modifications, like "sine wave" technique, which has removed much of the efficiency of the techniques) and by many unaffiliated TKD schools.

What would you consider indispensible in a good MA research library? Here are some of my choices,and I am eager for others to add to this: Karate History: -Unante, John Sells -Secrets of Okinawan Karate, Mark Bishop -Shotokan: A Precise History, Harry Cook -The History of Okinawan Karate Do, Higoanna Morio -Classical Kata of Okinawan Karate, Patrick McCarthy -Koryu Uchinadi (two volumes), Patrick McCarthy -Bubishi, Patrick McCarthy (tr.) -Rentan Goshin Tode Jutsu, Funakoshi Gichin (reprint, available from Kodansha) -Karate Do: My Way of Life, Funakoshi Gichin -Okinawan Kempo Jutsu, Motobu Choki (reprint, available from University of Hawaii Press) -Karate: History and Traditions, Bruce Haines (a bit dated, but still worthwhile) -Karate Masters, Jose Fraguas(interviewer) -Tales of Okinawas Great Masters, Nagamine Shoshin Japan and Okinawa: -Okinawa: A History of an Island People, George Kerr (the only comprehensive overview of Okinawan history to date) -The Making of Modern Japan, Kenneth Pyle, et.al. - Dogs and Demons: Understanding the Dark Side of Japan, Alex Kerr -The Chrysanthemum and the Sword, Ruth Benedict -Angry White Pyjamas, Robert Twigger -Moving Zen, C.W. Nichol Technical: -Karate Kinematics and Dynamics, Lester Ingber (out of print, but well worth finding) -Dynamic Karate, Nakayama Masatoshi (the "orange book") -Best karate #2: Fundamentals, Nakayama Masatoshi -The Essence of Okinawan Karate Do, Nagamine Shoshin -Shihan Te, Darryl Craig Korean Styles: -Hapkido: An INtroduction To The Art of Self Defence, Marc Tedeschi -Taekwondo: Traditions, Philosophy,and Technique, Marc Tedeschi -Taekwondo, Choi Hong Hi -Taekwondo: The Korean Art of Self Defence, Richard Chun -Advancing in Taekwondo, Richard Chun -Muye Dobo Tongji, Sang Kim (tr.) Periodicals: -Dragon Times/Classical Fighting Arts (quarterly, published by Dragon enterprises. Semi Scholarly, peer reviewed) -Journal of Aisan Martial Arts( Quarterly. Scholarly, peer reviewed) This is my "short list." I eagerly await suggestions! Especially suggestions regarding Chinese MA, about which I know very little.

In general, in the contemporary world, Dan ranking is meaningless. With the exception of some schools of classical Bujutsu (i.e.: Kenjutsu, Jujuttsu,Kyudo, Kendo, and to some extent, Aikido) Dan grades are mthods of allowing the instructor to extort money from students. In most Korean and otehr non-traditional styles Dan ranking seems to be based on wheteror not your check clears. Most (and here I emphasize the word "most") Japanese and Okinawan Karate schools avoid the "grade inflation" phenomenon, but exceptions exist.

The kanji for Kakato is inclusive,and does not contain the ideogram for 'sword.'

Personal attacks usually indicate the writer has exhausted their ability to reason, as you have demonstradted above. I can think of twenty or so mediocre to bad Shotokan schools I have encountered, five or so Wado schools in the same category, and one Shito Ryu school that also falls into the above. It is because of the shortcomings evident in japanese Karate that I am now practicing Seibukan Shorin Ryu. The school I now go to does not practice tournament technique in any way,shape, or form. Nor do we march up and down the floor throwing punches into the air. Instead we do a Kata, many partner drills, and tons'o'Bunkai! Young man, my comments were anything but a pedantic rant. As I said before, I would suggest you engage in some research, rather than reacting emotionally. I'm sorry if you feel your toes were stepped upon, but use this as a learning experience! Let me elaborate on the two TKD stylists I have met who display good technique. One of them (the person I trained under from August of 1999-December of 2002) also trained in Southern Chinese Kung Fu, and his father's Vietnamese family style Kung Fu. He is 68 years old,and earned his TKD black belt in 1962. He is currently a Kukiwon 7th Dan. he will also be the first one to tell you that the majority of TKD practitioners are "for nothing ." He uses the TKD framework to teach a martial art. The other TKD practitioner I have met who is an excellent technician teaches in a small Dojo in Renton, WA. He also holds Dan ranking in Goju, and Aikido. His TKD has a very Okinawan look to it. If you have further comments of a personal nature, please email me privately. My email address is on my profile.

I am not afraid to research the origins and history of my style. I am also not afraid of admitting weak points in arts I have practiced. I hold Dan rankings in Wado Ryu Karate Do (JKF Wado Kai), Shotokan (ISKF), and Tae Kwon Do (WTF). I think that when systems begin to promote children to Dan rank they lose most of their credibility. The Korean styles are notorious for this practice. If you have read other posts I have made on similar subjects, you will find that I am not in favour of even teaching Karate (as a generic term) to children under the age of ten. I don't believe that children have the ability to comprehend the material. I have met fifty year olds who have the same disability! Whether you like it or not, karate is a weapon. Do you favour allowing children to have access to weapons? Watering this down to the level seen in the sort of schools that sport paediatric Yudansha is ludicrous. Does anyone think that this youngster can effectively defend himself from an adult attacker? Does anyone think he understands the finer points of Karate technique (which,as a new Shodan, he should be able to (just barely) begin to comprehend)? The question also remains, what does his belt ranking mean? Is it a merely a reward for being able to reproduce technique? In the schools where I have trained, Shodan represents a beginning point. As a new Shodan, you are finally considered a serious student. Before Shodan, you are a guest in the Dojo. As a new Shodan you have finally proven yourself worthy of serious teaching. Everything before was a preparatory exercise for finally being able to really learn Karate. Is an eight year old boy capable of this? Can an eight year old make this conceptual leap? I doubt it. There are youngsters with the maturity to comprehend the intricacies of karate technique. Monkeygirl, who happens to be a moderator of this forum has by her thoughtful dialogue indicated that she is likely among this minority. I do seriously doubt, however, that she was capable of this level of comprehension at eight. Compounding this dilemma is the fact that I recall being an eight year old boy (not that terribly long ago, 1975, in fact!) and giving me a black belt in a martial art would have been the height of farce. I held a green belt in Judo at the time that I cringe to remember. In twenty-two years of training I have encountered two Korean stylists who taught good, solid technique. Neither of them will promote children under sixteen to Dan level. I have met many (of pretty much all styles) who teach bad technique, yet have a stable of paediatric Yudansha. The comments regarding the Korean arts have been in response to comments you made, Mr. marker. Do the research before you react emotionally. I am sure that you are a knowledgeable practitioner of Tang Soo Do,and that you demonstrate adequate TSD technique.

Consider the sources of Korean arts: Hwang Kee(Tang Soo Do): Claims to have trained in some nebulous "Chinese martial arts" and to have trained in "indigenous Korean Arts." In other sources, claims to have learned from books. In still other sources, claims to have learned from Funakoshi (no documented evidence to support this) and Mabuni (again, no documantation supports this assertion). Also clamied to have been a "spy" or "dissident/Korean Freedom Fighter" during WWII. In fact, documents exist asserting Kee was deported to Manchuria during WWII as part of a labour levy of Koreans. Choi Hong HI (ITF TKD): Claimed to have earned Dan ranking in Shotokan (once again, no documentation exists placing Choi at any of Funakoshi's Dojo in the 1930s or 1940s. ) Appointed 4th Dan in Ching Do Kwan as a political move,at the urging of the Korean Army. In addition, one must consider the state of technique in the Korean styles. Yes, there exist TKD/TSD schools where students learn effective self defence. However, none of these schools diplay a level of technique that can be considered anything but marginal, even when the observer is being generous! In addition, Korean stylits routinely display ignorance of such basic concepts as hip rotation, Hikite/Shomente relationships, body mechanics in motion, etc... In addition, Korean stylists generally display a stunning lack of knowledge when confronted with questions regarding intereperetation of Kata. Most Korean stylists, unless exposed to Japanese or Okinawan arts, will happily stick with block/punch/kick intereperetations of technique. Coupled with the above, are overwhelming emphasis on, and early accession to, high Dan grades. 40 y.o. 7th, 8th, and 9th Dans are common, frequently displaying poor to nonexistant command of basic technique. I'm sorry if I am stepping on anyone's toes, but these are verifiable examples. What might the solution be? First: Honesty from the Style heads. Second: Relaxation of the propoganda apparatus of the Korean Government (ex: "TKD is _ Thousand Years Old..."). Third: Cessation of promotion to high Dan grades at young ages by Korean Stylists. Fourth: Acknowledgement by Korean stylists that they are practicing a variation of Shotokan Karate, and an effort by those individuals to upgrade their skill levels. As far as Shotokan itself, Shotokan karate Do is (by Funakoshi's own admission) Karate with the lethal techniqes and applications removed. So what does this say about a watered down version of a watered down version of Karate?

Of course TKD is not a Budo art. I suggest you read Robert Dorenwend 's 3 part series on the "history" of TKD in the last three issues of Dragon Times/ Classical Fighting Arts. Tang Soo Do, TKD, etc..., are pale, poorly executed copies of Shotokan Karate.

Poor technique examples: http://www.bolton-shotokan.org/Video/gojushihosho_56.rm http://www.bolton-shotokan.org/Video/Kihon1s_56.rm http://www.bolton-shotokan.org/Video/Kumite1_56.rm

I saw nothing but mediocre to bad technique from the adults on the videoclip.I would expect better from a Shotokan Yudansha.I stand by my comment. The bent wrist is an example of failure to pay attention to detail and, as far as I'm concerned, demonstrates the poor standards of that school. If it is the same school I am thinking of, their website has a videoclip of a girl's 3d dan test. Her performance of Gojushiho Sho is very poor, indeed. her stances are so low that she must come up to do her mae geri,and she drops the kicks, rather than retracting them. She displays no kime, and the list goes on and on. I will try to find the site and post a link. I would suggest that you consider that standards are a bit higher in Japanese styles than they are in systems like Tang Soo Do.

Look at the wrist posistion of the hikite on the adult in the first picture, I think this says all there needs to be said about the quality of this dojo.

10th-7th kyu: 3 months each. 6th-4th kyu: 6ish, or so. 3d kyu: one year 2dkyu: optional, most people never actually hit 2d kyu,and are instead jumped to 1st kyu. 1st kyu: at least a year must pass between recieving 1st kyu and the Shodan test. This often means that people spend the better part of two years at 1st kyu, since Dan testing is once a year. 1st Dan: minimum of three years training time, minimum of 16 years old. 2d Dan: Minimum of two years since Shodan. 3d Dan: Minimum of three years since Nidan. etc... Let me also add that promotions are not automatic. Although it is almost impossible to fail the test for yellow belt (9th kyu) is has happened, usually to adults! I will be "coutesy testing" to Shodan this summer, I am told this is unusual. Ordinarily they have not let people from outside systems wear their dan grades. I was both pleasantly surprised,and anticipating being the "portuding nail that gets hammered down" (both happened!).

Has anyone a link to either the article in question or the school? I am having a veeerrryyy hard time believing that this is a legitimate Shotokan Dojo that did this! Does anyone else recall the 5y.o "blackbelt" who was on Regis and kathy Lee a few years ago?

If you wish to see kata devoid of anything but block/punch/kick applications, look at the Oyama lineage kata. Most of the techniqes have been modified so that there are no possible Kakushite!

the important thing to remember as a beginner at a "traditional" school is that your job is to adapt yourself to the style, not to expect the style to adapt to you.