bushido_man96

Thanks for taking the time read. If it weren't for all of the great discussions and people here at KF, I would not have been able to put this article together.

4-17-08 TKD Class: Good class tonight. I worked on sliding with my side kicks in basics to use in sparring. After basics, I did 2 sets of 10 push-ups, followed by some stretching. When we were doing one-steps, I was working with a 1st dan, and I was giving him ideas to speed up his kicking combinations. He began improving immediately, and I told him to take it into sparring with him, too. He did, and his sparring was so much better tonight. He was not used to being so active, and he was really tired. After I got a few kicks to his head, I gave him some advise on keeping his hands up. After that, he managed to kick me right in the side of the head! It was a good, solid round kick, too. I told him that he did a great job.

That depends on the degree to which the ground and pound fighter trains for his tactic. I am sure that they can adapt when they need to, and will, if they feel that they need to in their training. I don't think that they are truly restricted in their game; they just have to work to adapt, like any other fighter does. They play to their strengths and the opponent's weaknesses.

This post was originally published as an article in a dedicated KarateForums.com Articles section, which is no longer online. After the section was closed, this article was most to the most appropriate forum in our community. I love the martial arts. I love being a practitioner of the martial arts. I love learning new things about the martial arts. I even love writing about the martial arts. I also know that there are many more people like me out there. There are an especially great number of those like me here at KarateForums.com. One of the best things about KarateForums.com is that all of us martial artists get to engage in friendly banter based off of our individual feelings of the martial arts that we love so much. You could call it "verbal sparring." A while back, we had the opportunity to "verbally spar" about an opinion that goes to the very core of the martial arts. That opinion was, in not so many words, "What exactly is the definition of a martial art?" Well, what I endeavor to do in this article is... well, I really don't know! However, what I can tell you is that my goal is... uh... um... OK, I don't really know that, either. I could tell you that I plan to answer the question of what the true definition of the martial arts is. However, that would be a fallacy, so that is not what my goal in this article is. What I have done is collected a series of posts made by various posters here on KarateForums.com in an attempt to not really clarify anything, but to show what we all view as the criteria for something to be considered a martial art, as it relates to each of our own opinions. My true goals here are to bring some of those opinions together, compare and contrast them and to have a little bit of fun while doing it. I want to provide a quick disclaimer. It is not my intention to prove any one of the posters quoted in this article right or wrong. Neither is it my intention to discredit any one's viewpoint. Rather, I plan to use some of the posters' ideas and viewpoints, along with some dictionary definitions, to really demonstrate how much autonomy exists in the martial arts world and why we enjoy these discussions so much. The Definition of "Martial Art" (along with some other important words we need to discuss...) Most of us who come to be posters on KarateForums.com are already martial artists and most of us have a definition of the term already in mind (as we will soon see). I am no exception to this rule and, as you might expect, I'll be sharing my definition a bit later. As I struggle to order things for this article at 2:45 AM, I think I will start with the definition of the base word: Martial. Martial, as cited by Dictionary.com Unabridged, is defined as follows: "1. inclined or disposed to war; warlike; 2. of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces; 3. characteristic of or befitting a warrior." Well, I think we can go along with that. Basically, it's an adjective that attaches warlike qualities to something. baronbvp actually points this out to us in one of his posts, which we will get more into later. Seeing as most of our martial arts have to do with fighting, which is related to war, then I think we have a good start. Now we move to the second word: Art. Art has quite a few descriptions, but I will focus on those pertinent to our discussion: "1. the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance; 7. the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning." (Dictionary.com Unabridged). Well, that makes some sense as well. The study of martial arts is usually quite significant to most of us and could be considered a branch of learning. So, now, if we take the definition of each of these words and combine them, we should get a pretty comprehensive understanding of the term "martial art," right? Well, in an attempt to disappoint most of us, here is the definition of martial arts from the same source: "any of the traditional forms of Oriental self-defense or combat that utilize physical skill and coordination without weapons, as karate, aikido, judo, or kung fu, often practiced as sport." (Dictionary.com Unabridged). "Whoa, whoa, WHOA, bushido_man96! Back that truck up, buddy! That ain't my definition of "martial arts!"" I know, I know, don't beat up the messenger! It isn't my definition, either. However, this is where our discussion of differences really begins. Who says Webster is always right, eh? In our dictionary-provided definition, the words or terms combat, self defense and sport are all mentioned. Many practitioners will feel that these three terms don't mingle in with the term "martial art," and that some even contradict it. KarateForums.com Poster Contributions The posts that I will be quoting can be found in the "About Wrestling" thread on KarateForums.com. It is not the goal of this article to discuss this thread, but feel free to reference it, if you like. Rainbow_Warrior authored the above thread by venturing the following question: It is obvious that Rainbow_Warrior, along with other posters, feels that there is a marked difference in the terms listed above in his question. What jumps out the most is the comparison of martial art to martial sport. I think this is a good question and in the spirit of KarateForums.com, we are all willing to offer our opinions on the subject. I will interject here what I think the martial arts are defined as. I think that the martial arts encompass pretty much any fighting or combat system, including, but not limited to, Taekwondo, Karate, Judo, boxing, wrestling, mixed martial arts, medieval swordsmanship, the military armed forces, etc. My list would go on and on. I feel this way because each system had, at one point, been used in martial ways (or still is), relating to combat, etc. Even though some have evolved from their original forms, they all still relate to fighting or combat in one form or another. As I have mentioned, though, not everyone will have the same feelings on the definition of the martial arts. Some feel that martial arts and martial sports are separate. Webster's New World Dictionary defines sport as such: "1. any recreational activity; specifically, a game, competition, etc. requiring bodily exertion" (pp. 623). ps1 offers this quote on the separation of art and sport: Earlier in the discussion, ps1 added the following: ps1 makes some very good and very valid points. ps1, and others, feel that arts and sports are separate entities. However, you can see a little bit of overlap between the terms he mentions. Practicing a sport like wrestling may lend itself to some self defense, however, that is not it's primary goal. My response to ps1's comment above was this: I feel that the sporting aspect does not detract from the martial arts aspect; i.e., learning to defend one-self. Although I feel this way, I think that ps1 argues his points very well and I appreciate his viewpoints. I know that many other martial artists reading this article will agree with ps1 as well. Under ps1's definition, wrestling, boxing and MMA would come under the martial sport category, whereas I would not differentiate them. Also, according to ps1's statements, the primary goal of a martial art would be teaching self defense. I think that many would agree with ps1 here as well. Our confusion can be amplified by the sheer amount of martial arts competitions that take place. Many who practice the martial arts for self defense may choose to enter the occasional tournament. However, if one begins to compete on a national level, are they making the jump to martial sport? Can you be one and still do the other? Or, does it make you both? Rainbow_Warrior also brings up another point of confusion in the dictionary definition of martial arts: Along with our previous definition, Webster's New World Dictionary defines the martial arts as: "systems of self-defense originating in East Asia, such as karate and kung fu, also engaged in for sport" (pp. 397). With two sources providing almost equivalent information, it appears that this assumption is widespread. So now, are we to be led to believe that the martial arts only came from the East? What about the Greeks and Romans? Did they not have martial arts? Medieval European warriors were not martial artists? Nor the Vikings? I feel that this is one of the most misleading parts of our dictionary definitions of the term martial arts. Alrighty then. Is everyone confused yet? Good deal! Then I am accomplishing my goal! In my continuing quest to further confuse and enlighten everyone, I turn to a post from baronbvp: In a post shortly after that one, he states: What baronbvp has done here is that he has taken the sporting aspect to the point of being expressed as an art. This brings out how much each person's expression and interpretation lends to their own definition of the martial arts. I like baronbvp's points as well. In the last part of his above quote, he shows that even though art and sport may be considered separate, he attempts to find each in the other. baronbvp also sheds some light on the sporting aspect of the martial arts definition by stating the following: Here, baronbvp brings the definitions of martial sport and martial athlete to the forefront as well. Even though baronbvp has listed several different definitions, he demonstrates that he feels that all of them can fall under his term of martial arts. Even though we witness some togetherness here, we can also still see some separations as well. For example, a martial artist would not have to train like a martial athlete to still participate in a martial sport. I will now make a brief jump to a different thread called "Good Idea". Here, I bring up a quote from marie curie about how, to her, the various definitions demonstrate a sort of evolution of methods: In marie curie's description of her experiences, she demonstrates that she sees obvious differences in some of the ways that some styles do things and that they won't always fall under the same category, as far as art, sport and self defense are concerned. I think that this is a very interesting viewpoint on how different martial arts methodologies are perceived. Conclusion? After the extensive evaluation of various definitions of the martial arts based on the opinions of various posters on KarateForums.com, along with dictionary evaluations, I think I have come to the conclusion that the martial arts are defined as different things by different martial artists. The beauty of the entire discussion here is that none of us are really wrong. Have I cleared anything up by writing this article? No, not really. Have I succeeded in further confusing the hell out of everyone? Probably. I think that many of the martial artists out there would disagree with the dictionary definitions of the martial arts. However, as you can tell from the quotes in this article, coming up with a suitable definition for the term (that we can all agree on) may be downright impossible. In order to maintain the integrity of this article (which is, of course, confusion), I leave you with the following summation by baronbvp: Is he right? According to himself, he is. Is he wrong? According to others, he would be. However, his statement does leave us where we started; with a topic worthy of discussion. Thanks I would like to drop a few words of thanks. This article would not have been possible without the posters quoted herein: Rainbow_Warrior, ps1, baronbvp and marie curie. Thanks to you all for supplying great input on the subject matter discussed here. I would also like to thank Patrick and all of those responsible for the formation of KarateForums.com, for providing such a great community in which we can share our views in a constructive manner. I would also like to thank all of the other KarateForums.com members out there posting about the martial arts everyday. If it weren't for the quality discussions that go on everyday at KarateForums.com, I would truly have nothing to write about. Works Cited Webster's New World Dictionary, Fourth Edition.

A Game of Thrones; Tyrion Tyrion and his men are being led to the Vale, under the arrest of Catelyn Stark. She claimed she was heading to Winterfell, and when Tyrion was unblindfolded, he noticed his plight. He was disgusted that he had been outwitted. Afterwards, he did not ride blindfolded. Cat and Tyrion begin speaking of his capture. He brings up Littlefinger, and the lies he told at court about being with Cat. This angers her, but allows him to speak. As they go on, he begins to put together the story of how Littlefinger came to own the dagger that attempted Bran’s life. The conversation is broken off as some of the mountain clans ride up to attack them. Cat arms the captured men, Tyrion included. Tyrion actually engages in combat, coming out alive and unwounded. He even goes to assist Cat during the battle. Afterwards, making jokes with some of the free riders, he notes that he has “a start.” Cat allows him to keep his weapons at this point as well. To finish what he was discussing about Petyr before the battle, he states to Cat that the one flaw in Petyr’s tale is that Tyrion never bets against his family (Petyr said that Tyrion lost the dagger when he bet against Jaime at Joff’s tourney). Notes: Tyrion noted that when men stood for Cat, only about a dozen of the 50 did so, and those of Lord Frey did not hardly act at all. Two of them stood, but returned to sitting when their captain did nothing. In this chapter, we meet Bronn for the first time, and Tyrion takes note of his actions in battle. On a side note, during the battle, Marillion the singer is wounded. Tyrion took the pleasure of stepping on his playing fingers when a horse landed on him.

It is hard to give someone the same recogintion as Marylin Monroe, Frank Sinatra, and the like. It will be difficult to do the same with Bruce Lee.

ps1 has a school in Ohio somewhere. You could look him up!

Bruce Lee is always going to hold a special place in the MA movie genre because he revolutionized it. He showed that MA movies could also be good movies. No one will ever revolutionize the genre in that way again. So, he will always have a more profound impression on the way he is viewed.

4-16-08 Day at the park! Tried to do pull-ups again, got 3 1/2 pull-ups done. Held the last one for a bit, too. I also hung and swung the monkey bars 3 times. Also did 2 sets of 3 dips.

I see. That makes sense, then. However, doesn't Fedor compete in some strictly Sambo competitions still? I don't know how it relates to Submission Grappling, but I don't think they do any striking.

Toughness is one of many aspects that can be taken into consideration when fighting. Granted, not everyone has the same level of toughness. If it is a strength that you have, then you should definitely play to it.

This is very true. One of the problems that I see with exceedingly high rank is that those that have it don't really approach anyone about learning anything; i.e., asking questions about something new or different. I have never had a problem with asking a lower rank for any advise on how to do something, especially if they have better technique than I do, or a different way of doing it. I think that this is one of the things that styles like Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, Wrestling, etc, that don't have rank, have as an advantage over other styles; the perception of who is higher ranked than the other. The lack of this perception allows for more vertical integration in a class in both an up and down scale, and not just down the ladder.

I agree here. Along with my TKD classmates, two of them are also Aikidoists, and talking to them about what they do in that class, and what they have learned, is always enlightening and educational. Along side them, I have a partner in Combat Hapkido and Defensive Tactics who used to be in TKD, but isn't anymore. We always have good classes and conversations covering various aspects of the Martial Arts. Always a good time.

I am sorry that your son is being taken advantage of. However, it may be part of his requirment as a black belt to do some teaching. It sounds to me, though, that he may be doing too much teaching. If that is the case, then he needs to discuss his situation with the instructor, and figure something out. Teaching is a valuble form of learning. However, teaching is not for everyone. This is something that also must be considered. Saying that, I do also think that it is possible to learn something from everyone.

A log roll. That is pretty funny!

I think I own a book of his, on TKD forms. Good book, too. Yeah, he's pretty amazing. When I read the article that said he's built his MA career on a part time school at the YMCA (with 200+ students), I was really impressed! That certainly is saying something.

4-14-08 Push-ups: 3x10...a few of these reps were with my son crawling on my back. Sit-ups: 3x10 Standing chambering legs, alternating: 3x20 TKD Class: 6:00 - 7:00. Good class tonight. Basics wore me down. My form felt good tonight, too. Sparring was good; I worked on some things that the 4th dan in the class helped me with. I worked on closing the gap with some sliding forward side kicks, and then proceding to follow up with more offense. It worked well, but made me tired. I am usually much more defensive when fighitng.

You may not consider them Martial Artists, but that doesn't mean that they are not. I would take training by any of those guys. There is always something to learn.

That is a good way to look at things. Great attitude!

Fedor is like one of the best Sambo guys in the world, though (from what I understand). Even with his Sambo training, he would still get dominated by Saulo?

Thanks for the info. I look forward to seeing more.

Those guys do have skills. Granted, they may not be the same skill set that some of the more flashy or "strategic" fighters have, but they are skills just the same. And they do train them. I am pretty sure that once you get to that level, everyone is putting in pretty much the same amount of training time.

Those are some good staples, but not every style has a rank of 10th dan.

I agree! There are few things as rewarding as teaching.

Welcome to KF! Why is it that you have been kept from opening your own dojo?