JWLuiza

My organization does Shu Shi no Kon Sho... Any videos for the dai version out there?

Aww, gee thanks (seriously, thanks) Too bad I don't have a work schedule that allows teaching. I miss it.

You guys beat me to it. On the same note, Rob has two books that are great... one on his training in Japan and one a Kata Book...

You are correct from what I have experienced. Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do schools use a red stripe through the center of the black (or midnight blue) at master level and above (4th degree in TSD). The folklore was that students covered their redbelts with black cloth that would wear through in the middle, exposing the red.... It probably just looked cool Folklore or not, it is interesting none the less. In one style I studied, the red belt came before the black, and symbolized "warning" or "danger." The philosophy behind this was that the student had all of the technical knowledge of the black belt, but not quite the control and discipline of the black belt. I think the folklore gives some insight into the paradigm of the current practitioners... I agree with the redbelt (1st gup) group being the most dangerous. At our tournament (yearly open tournament) it isn't the heavy weight men's black belt division that's the most dangerous (BRAG: I won the combined heavy/light heavy division just this past Saturday) it is the brown belt (first gup) division. Except this year, it was the men's blue belt.... So I turned to my friend and said: "Blue is the new Brown" And right after that, the nurse was called over for a broken nose.

So, how does an up and down movement (y axis) increase force on strikes in the horizontal plane (x axis)? I might buy sine wave motions for strikes that have a downward vector to the strike..... But for punches? I think I can shed some light on this. In reading the Fighter's Fact Book 2, one of the authors talks about a technique called the "gravity drop," (I think is what it was called ). What he did is basically went from being somewhat upright to dropping the weight forward and into the target (almost like dropping from ready position into a front stance), which would put the body weight, along with gravity, into the target. It made sense when I read it, and thought that maybe that is what General Choi had in mind. I just don't think every technique would require its use, though. For example, doing a gravity drop into a block would not be as effective as it would be in a straight punch or elbow into the body. Try it with an elbow strike into the heavy bag, and see what you feel. Let me know if you need more technical info...I'll give it as best as I can. Thanks for the explanation. I was more asking from a physics viewpoint (since I teach college level physics for the MCAT). However, by putting the center of gravity forward, it sounds like the point of impact is further along the x-axis, so it isn't the y-axis drop propagating this "stronger" technique. It is just physically impossible for any Force perpendicular to a striking surface to affect a strike... so thanks for clearing up where this might have come from.

You are correct from what I have experienced. Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do schools use a red stripe through the center of the black (or midnight blue) at master level and above (4th degree in TSD). The folklore was that students covered their redbelts with black cloth that would wear through in the middle, exposing the red.... It probably just looked cool

I beleive in cycling through all three areas. Teach the basic movements without resistance. Put the moves into sequence for Kata. Teach the kata applications. Transition to drills and sparring. When having problems, figure out which level the problem comes from: Is it in the movement? Combining the movement? Or trying to spar? So at any one given time, a student could be working on several techniques: Learning a new kick (basics) Refining an old technique to snap in forms (kata) Applying another technique in bunkai/self-defense/fighting (kumite)

I think VASHOGUN was trying to say, that to develop skill you have to experiment, try new things out in order to create a living art and be more than just a technician. Koryu students practice kata and waza and use their technical ability to develop an artistic (skillful) understanding of how their weapon works... Same should be true of the karateka.

So, how does an up and down movement (y axis) increase force on strikes in the horizontal plane (x axis)? I might buy sine wave motions for strikes that have a downward vector to the strike..... But for punches?

14 is a great age to start any martial art. You'll be fine. I started Tang Soo Do and Jujitsu at 13. There is really no "too late" but late childhood and early adolescence is a better time to start due to physical and neurological development.

For budget minded consumers: The Pro-Force Super Heavy Gi are great. They are no Tokaido, but MUCH better than their 12oz. Also, I HATE century Gis... and other than Century it is hard to find a good Tang Soo Do uniform and Pro Force 14oz come with black or midnight blue trim. Sadly, I never got a Sang Moo Sa before they went downhill.

yes, you are correct. But my question was regarding organization specifics, not TSD related questions. Since you aren't Moo Duk Kwan (as in affiliated with the H.C. Hwang run Federation) or the Mi Guk Kwan, you wouldn't be able to answer.

Re-read my post. You don't fall under either category. Thanks for offering your help though.

As far as I know, you won't find hwa sun in a book other than the 2nd volume published by the U.S. Soo Bahk Do. I've also heard they've revamped Hwa Sun and will be changing the official version in the near future. Ho Sik Pak and Kang Uk Lee both have books with various chil sun and yuk ro forms in them. However, the body mechanics are significantly different, that I would suggest purchasing DVDs. The Mi Guk Kwan has purchasable DVDs with both the older karate based forms and the new chil sun/yuk ro forms.

Well we lost our other conversant, but you've got your facts IMO in the general area. I am interested in the chil sun and yuk ro forms... I've never seen Hwa Sun, and from what I've heard, it's already changed from the 2nd volume of SOo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and should be released to the Moo Duk Kwan shortly.

The hearsay that I've been exposed to introduced kicking in korea as a cultural relic from it being uncouth to hit with the hands. There are some great youtube clips of Taekyon (modern) that are just SOOOO different than TKD or any other kicking.... It resembles more of an acrobatic dance with some amazing kicks. Most of the changes the koreans made to the japanese forms were to raise the kicks and add more kicks (see empi for example). Low crescents were turned to high crescents, etc. However, in a real fight unless I can kill Cro Crop, I'm kicking waist height or lower. There is a guy over at warrior-scholar.com/smf (Master Segarra) that translated the book you mentioned over in the TSD thread into english for Hwang Kee.

We concurrently test for ranks in jujitsu (japanese) but I'm 100% sure it'll look like much of your ho sin sul. However, students are encouraged to link moves and create their own (with input from instructors obviously).

Chuilli, there are several masters from the Moo Duk Kwan (no longer, but were highly involved) over at warrior-scholar.com/smf for you to talk with about the history of the Moo Duk Kwan. While your description of the Moo Duk Kwan STYLE of TSD is probably accurate for what you teach/learn, there is actually no Moo Duk Kwan that teaches TSD anymore, they teach Soo Bahk Do. The hangul for Tang refers to the Tang Dynasty, an era of chinese history and not to a specific method of kung fu (sip pal gi in korean). It is the same characters the japanese use to write karate! Same EXACT word, different pronounciations. Searching the internet I can find no mention of Tang style Kung Fu as well... Perhaps you could point me towards a link? Yes, there are many schools out there that teach Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, but they have no official ties to the ACTUAL Kwan... Neither do I, or I'd be wearing midnight blue instead of black. But, I would still like to know why we perform almost exact replications of Japanese forms according to your master...

Chiulli, There is no Tang method of Kung Fu. The Tang in Tang Soo Do is from the hanja used to write karate, not relationships to kung fu. According to Hwang Kee, the original martial art he taught was Hwa Soo Do not Soo Bahk Do. Soo Bahk was referenced in korean texts, but was chosen as the new name of the martial art of the Moo Duk Kwan in honor not as a tie in to an ancient martial art. Us Tang Soo Do practitioners are similar to japanese stylists because the Grandmasters of many of the Kwans of the mid 20th century Kwan's actually trained in japanese karate. Tang Soo Do forms were transmitted to us not from China, but from Japan and Okinawa.

TSD is also borrowed from other martial arts. The history of 1000s of years old tradition is also marketing promoted by Korean nationals after the Japanese occupation. There is no evidence that Hwang Kee was a taekyyon master. He learned a little kung fu while in manchuria (Hence Moo Duk Kwan teaching Sorim Jang Kwon and Tae Kuk Kwan forms). Hwang Kee originally taught forms from Karate Books he found at a manchurian railroad. According to some scholars, he added these forms because his original Hwa Soo Do was not successful. Many more were familliar with Tang Soo Do (the korean pronounciation of Karate). Later, the Moo Duk Kwan released Hwa Sun, Yuk Ro, and Chil Sun forms as a "modern" interpretation of a Korean war manual. However if you look at the training of Tang Soo Do schools, they almost match 100% with Japanese styles like shotokan.

Looking for Mi Guk Kwan or Soo Bahk Do practitioners who are on this board.

Eh. Good form, nothing special to it and EVERYONE does it. Front kick or side kick version? If you can do the hand techniques with power, this could be a good form. Could be too short. I beleive it to be a very difficult kata to do with timing and explosive power. Some of the "softer" renditions might be easier. These are probably the two best "tournament forms" that you could choose. Kong San Koon however, does have some monotony in the middle sections. I would choose Wang Shu unless you could keep the judges attention for ALL of KSK. (Do you do Kong Sang Koon Sho?) thanks for your input

Generally Dai and Sho reference versions of the form, not the "size" of the form. Generally, IME, the Sho forms tend to be taught AFTER the dai versions (bassai, kanku). While the Sho forms (except for Gojyushiho) may have fewer moves, they tend to have more subtle moves than their Dai counterpart.

Tago could be Taegot, or the same as the Kicho Hyung from Tang Soo Do or the Taikyoku kata from Shotokan. Neon might be Heian or Pinan. Phase 3?

I do some on my own, but my organization doesn't train applications. Since we train jujutsu it helps figure out some of the applications. What form are you working right now?