Menjo

Awhile back, I've a small amount of Muay Thai experiance, and was in it long enough to train with some friends there. Even though I no longer train there, we still train together often on our own time and of course, they are heavy into full contact fighting and take it seriously. Based off my training with theres, the only difference is usually the techniques. Plus, fights with various people in MMA. So thats pretty much where my assumptions come from, that and my small encounters with the MMA club right beside. But I see what you mean, as some people make assumptions with no background information. Thats exellent, looking back, I can see I mixed that up. My way of living is just something I've learned to defend, not always in the best way I guess. I agree, there are many factors.

I disagree, but I see where you’re coming from. However I'm really not much of a competitor, so naturally my methods are different. In saying that, I also don't think my sparring training is any less than that of a serious competitior. Thats an extremely harsh statement. Since we have different approaches to fighting in general and my general lack of experiance, I wouldn't be able to have a definite say in what is my way of life, other than that I do the best I can in what I practice. What I do know is that its something that I'd be pretty touchy about if it was spit on. Well I just thought that MMA was driven mainly by competition with others, which really makes MMA what it is. They wouldn't stop, but they wouldn't be the same fighters, for better or for worse. They really wouldn't be what is seen of MMA today. Well, it seems to me with the clubs I've been too, the teacher focuses on those who try hardest and spread the attention equally. If the student isn't willing to listen, they generally miss out. If the entire class worked hard then the standard would of course jump higher. But I guess theres a difference in teaching methods, so thats a fair point. Sure. To me both methods make sense, just different ideas. Yes, I do think so. For some others and me it has I know, but in general it makes sense. Perhaps I can re-evaluate that when I've gained some more experience. Yeah, but anythings possible with the right scenario. If the counter didn't work the first time, then I'd make it work. I would follow with other techniques, or if he kept attacking I probably would press on, possibly not the smartest tactic, but its something I know I would end up doing. If that didn't work, then I'd probably be in serious trouble. Ok, I can clear this up. I wanted to say that blocking is an important training method, which can be incorporated into situations where other options are not present. So its effective is applied properly, but perhaps not relied too much on.

Thats an exellent point. Grappling seems to have a upper hand in long term effects in general. The best thing seems to have a strong solution without having to waste time thinking, as stated by many others. I think grappling is effective for these scenarios if you know where to go from.

that's EXACTLY what the problem is. the style SHOULD dictate it. I can take any given person I coach and through regular training - without additional outside training - they will be able to get in a ring and hold their own. The training that is inherent in the style makes it that way. TMA is not like that. the training prepares you for the rigors of extended length fighting. TMA does not, because that's not what it was designed for. A student should still train on their own, but the style should prepare them regardless. The only arts I've seen that have this right are sport arts - judo, bjj, muay thai, etc. The only TMA that I've seen like this are capoeira and olympic style tkd. Who says it should? Outside training is exactly what the real training is, thats why it is a different way of life, it isn't limited to the ring or training location, or the fighters desire to beat others. This is the real difference I see in these arts. The student is forced to become better only by themselves, so they are motivated by the how much the student wants to improve, the the harder the student works, the harder the instructor drives them. This cycle is difficult as the student has only their own willpower to rely on. Sports are different, as progress is only measured to others, which then in turn eventually limits it to others. This is not to say that TMA completely ignores everyone around them. The training which is inherent, are the tools the instructor gives to the student. Class is a time where a student can learn new points, or re focus old ones. Any person who has the right type of conditioning for a long time can develop the ability to endure extended fights and inability to last extended fights is a result rather than the actual problem of self motivation or poor teaching. Right, my self imposed requirement is the requirement of TMA training for me. Since training is a way of life, each person has a different way of life, therefore TMA is what that person makes of it. Thats why once again, the practitioner has to treat it seriously to get serious results. TMA is designed according to ones own needs, and is not completely based on others. Well, one, you can't make an action without some sort of decision. You must commit to what you decide to use. Secondly, the counter may indeed not do damage, but never attacking the opponent because its not 100 percent sure it will do damage is dangerous thinking to one self. The attack my not be a counter, but in some way or another, you must assume confidence in yourself eventaully. Now this final point is where I always get frustrated with, with all respect to the person you trained with. Blocks are a training development method. Blocks are not the primary way of stoping an attack. Blocks are meant as a way in case one cannot use evading or using a technique to get there first. Simply using blocks against an opponent in a ring isn't a effective way to do anything, except lose. Blocking like this will let your opponent find a weakness, like you said how you use your method. Blocks are meant for developmen of training, and if not properly applied, they can hinder some peoples fighting mindset.

That’s all relative, I've not a lot of say for boxing but I do think this: By thinking that any conditioning is ever enough for TMA I think is the dominant factor that limits a lot of TMA . Firstly, it isn't enitryl what the school requires, its about the individual. Whats even worse is that some people think that because they don't do it in their school that it’s not applicable to them. If TMA is about being the best you can be, than training the hardest possible is the minimum, not what point sparring competitions show. I actually train constantly with a friend of mine who takes MMA and I force myself to only accept training twice as hard than what my opponent may be, if I don't succed, thats more the motivation. Success in real TMA isn't beating others, therefore, to beat yourself, you require the most you can do, and that will never be enough. True TMA requires more than any one person can ever do, this has created some grueling workouts for me, which include training from others mixed with my training. Any less than this severly limits a practitioner (In my opinion). If you are successful with one real block, than that is enough to initiate a counter attack, or it wasn't a proper block, simply blocking all of them would indeed like you said get you knocked out. If you block and don't counter effectivly, then the block failed, unless you have some other intention. A block properly applied is either effective or not, speed is only relative to your opponent. If there is a difference in skill(them being more skilled) and one blocks regardless, than it wasn't properly applied(unless you have another intention). Like you said, evading is effective, and is used by alot of MA as a great alternative.

My opinion is that humans are going to have to settle and figure out what is reality first. Intead of wasting time on small ideas, focus on the cause of all these confusions. Then many issues like this for example; I dont think would pose much of a problem at all. Learning how to learn is what I mean. But in no way am I insulting peoples ideas, or use of time at all! Easier said than done .

I have the exact opposite experience. TMA are close minded and tend to only want to hear about TMA, IME. Here are some of the many experiences I've had in real life (not on the net) with TMA: - at my old cma school, there was a guy who was infatuated with cma, but was blind to all else. He once said "boxers have no real skill - they just stand there and slug eachother" - I was once showing a student at the above school some grappling techniques, as he had a grappling tourney coming up, and the same dude from above comes up and says "in a real fight, you just kick em in the nuts or hit em in the throat" - A guy once told me that he couldn't teach me shuai chiao because it ws highly advanced and secretive. He later told he he'd teach me for $80 an hour. He didn't know I had already beeen training it FOR FREE under some guys who trained directly under one of chang tung sheng's students. - when we relocated to the school we are in now, we went to a nearby pizza joint for lunch. The cashier said "are you guys from the new MA school?" we told him yes and invited him to come train with us sometime. He said "Nah, I don't need it. I train a traditional style and will not ever get taken to the ground." I've had several similar experiences, but this is enough to illustrate my point. Well in my view, on any position, your going to find more fools than real experts, so I think listening to people who say ignorant things that you stated above, simply shouldn't be paid ANY attention too, their vote doesn't count. People are being rewarded by social security from others by bashing other peoples arts...does this type of scenario sound familiar? Try thousands of years of the history of mankind and I'm sure someone could find something. Not only that, but it becomes contagous, as everyone wants that security, they feed off each other, and theres no stopping it. But thats not my point, For MMA and TMA, while the higher level mixed martial arts often have the cocky attitude, they seem to show some respect to TMA in general. And this goes for the same with higher level TMA , although usually have much different traits. I'm not aying that the higher levels all have respect for one another, but in general they seem at least a little more open. I meet people everyweek who insult what I train in, and yes I do care, but I wont let thier egos destroy the reps of respectable mixed martial artists or traditional artists too, afterall, martial arts are more of a individual activity in my opinion. Now my biggest concern is this: Why do the public who join TMA think that because they train in one style, they can't get into the same physical activities, put aside the arguments of chi and body flow. Any martial artist can go and get a heavy bag, or run, or do similar physical conditioning as the mixed martial artists. In fact, to improve my karate, I've been recently going around and talking with willing instructors of all martial arts (including MMA) who gave me advice and training workouts that i use everyday...I also think MMA could learn a little more with some TMA help aswell...why not?? But I don't think that would ever happen, plus even stating this is a contradiction to what I said just at the start.

I agree in general. However I would choose to use the elbow as a reference for this comparison. Being taught of how to use a back fist in the only way I can use, the position of the hand would be far less important as appose to the position of the elbow, and more importantly how your center, guard, and habits are. The fist is more a specific result of your elbow and obviously the rest of your body, but the elbow referance and the farther you travel into the body, may carry a better broader point, allowing to expand if you are doubted...Instead of having to restate similar points. Any technique from my habits would result in a technique lacking if it wasn’t centered, rather than having limbs more to the outside, which would cause to me waste time to use my whole body to follow through. Which might exclude similar styles teachings. But I think in whole my point generaly falls into your position, as naturally, most people depending on the style I think would fall right into your explanation.

On National Geographic there is going to be a scientific analysis of various martial arts. Even though I think its a horrible representation of martial arts, it sounds pretty accurate for a invidual martial artist. But it’s defiantly interesting. Heres the link to the site: http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/fightscience/ The Show is broadcasted on August 20th.

I somewhat agree to what you said. But in saying that, you left out something that would disagree with your argument. I learned that traditional martial arts I know use both methods. The way I'm traditional martial arts is to block only when I have to, or during a situation that I would feel it would be better for me to block, rather than evade, or just straight out take the hit. Mainly, for advanced students, they are taught how to evade when they gain enough knowledge. Blocking in martial arts I find is more of a way to get your opponent in a situation that puts you in a advantage. Not to merely stop a technique. When a martial artist simply stops a technique without having put themselves in a dominant position, probably made some error. But thats a choice, traditional martial arts avoid and absorb as well, more than standard training on tv shows of course. And I think MMA block somewhat. They use a certain part of their body to minimize any serious damage, this could fall into a similar definition as a block, right? Martial art discussions and actual martial art training are two different things. If most traditional martial artists discuss, that doesn't nessaceraly mean that they would represent a martial art well, this goes for anyone... Unless its some master or something of that sort. However I think I made some post about this earlier. Once again the thread was focusing on specific blocking methods. There will always be debate on every aspect of martial technique. Coming from the Hung-Ga style I've come to depend upon a strong bridge & look to block whatever is heading my way. It works for me. Does this mean it's the only way, of course not. I'm just on the far end of of the 'blocking' spectrum. Rather than trying to fault one another let's just enjoy the different perspectives of martial art styles. ok, didnt mean for anyone to take it in a negative way. But noone actually faulted anyone, good luck with your training.

I somewhat agree to what you said. But in saying that, you left out something that would disagree with your argument. I learned that traditional martial arts I know use both methods. The way I'm traditional martial arts is to block only when I have to, or during a situation that I would feel it would be better for me to block, rather than evade, or just straight out take the hit. Mainly, for advanced students, they are taught how to evade when they gain enough knowledge. Blocking in martial arts I find is more of a way to get your opponent in a situation that puts you in a advantage. Not to merely stop a technique. When a martial artist simply stops a technique without having put themselves in a dominant position, probably made some error. But thats a choice, traditional martial arts avoid and absorb as well, more than standard training on tv shows of course. And I think MMA block somewhat. They use a certain part of their body to minimize any serious damage, this could fall into a similar definition as a block, right? Martial art discussions and actual martial art training are two different things. If most traditional martial artists discuss, that doesn't nessaceraly mean that they would represent a martial art well, this goes for anyone... Unless its some master or something of that sort. However I think I made some post about this earlier.

Perhaps make a poll? But I know I would not recognize someone who trained purly in a simulator, thats for sure.

Yeah I think Bonnar lost because he didn't entertain, even though techniquely he was fine. To the average viewer who doesn't know fighting, Rashad probably looked in alot more favor. Thats sports though. I'm glad Silva won the fight... The lightwieght fight was good since it was stand up all the way, which was nice for a change.

I understand what you mean. My instructor once in awhile will instruct a small class on defending agaisnt grappling, and what to do in those situations(How to gain control). But this is only special training, and is rare.

Actually, in my experiance. Shotokan Karate contains all of those things in other styles as well and yes...Including grappling! To me, Karate contains all of these aspects. Proper karate training to me isn't about focusing on a few aspects, its about above all prefection of ones self, naturally, everything in fighting will develop in the practitioner through rigorous training. In my opinion, Karate is good for everything if properly trained, if not, the art loses credibility due to ignorance. This is why the instructor is so important. I also don't think true kung fu is fancy in a real situation. I find so much now since martial arts are so popular, a martial art is judged off of tv, or worse, a couple lame videos on the internet. In regards to your post about karate defeating kung fu alot, I have only seen 1 or MAYBE 2 authentic and knowledageble karateka on internet videos. I don't think internet videos are a good representation of true training, only the result of money, and are therefor a hinder to martial arts. My suggestion: My opinion slides towards Karate, however I mainly suggest taking the art with the most traditional instructor. Good luck.

Congrats on your success!

With no real threat, knowing that they can get away with screwing up would be a dangerous effect. At first they would feel fear of course, but anyone would learn to have no fear(In a different way then in real life). I dont think the participants would...learn... thier own body, this is essiantial, I can't exactly explain it. But you must know your own self in every aspect, this mixes with my first point. but first, I also think true concepts of martial arts might be lost from all the set backs(Which are actually improvements). You cant learn your own self without experiancing real fear. I feel that because we are so grounded all the time and that we constantly feel limitations, that we develop as people and as martial artists. The true martial artists who sometimes sacrifice things and time to train, would not exist, as this sacrificing is a part of training, and the holodeck would take away the need to put your heart into what you do. Overall, I think maybe once in awhile(Once every few years), a experianced martial artist could go in and train in the holodeck for a day. My main point here is that ones training would be constantly fed into them. This is useless, because the whole point is self relization for many. I often find I will notice something and then read about it in a Martial art book, and I get proud because I know where and that I am developing. Thats how it was done hundreds or even thousands of years ago, things were learned and training ideas were realised. Honestly, I think any sort of information should be earned through training. For me: I'm reading a book called Hagakure, this book is a collection of stories and ideas, in oreder for me to really understand these peices, for every certain amount of kata I do with real and true effort and not speeding along, I offer myself a section or peice of writing. But I aways forget about the book in the end, and remember later, that also makes me glad that I haven't done kata for the book, but for training. Anyway, I hope training today does not get any more informative without true training. This is a serious matter for me in martial arts. I guess this got off-topic, but the beginning relates to the actual topic above. Its a great topic though.

Ok, wow I didn't know that! Well, three were cracked, and one had two cracks...one big one. Its probably what you said(Complete fracture, if that techniquely exists). And thanks for the advice, although that was awhile ago.

Yeah, I know how you feel. Unfortunatly, I got too cocky with that mindset and got 4 ribs broken sparring a 4th degree black belt recently(well 3 fracured, but still, only 1 actually broken). Sometimes that one hit is much worse than any barrage of techniques.

Yeah, contact isnt much still, and its defitnaly not as much as in MMA! Canada is still of course point sparring, but I think for JKA they keep the level of contact the same through all countries. I'm probably just making a big deal of it, I'm guessing the level of contact is about the same.

I was saying that the advantage in speed goes to the smaller guy... Ok, I see now.

I agree. I'm not saying we can't get away with it. I'm saying that once we learn to relax, we learn how not to use it until necessary. Judo is a perfect example of this, as is bjj. If I am throwing you and you successfully resist, I can likely power you through the throw anyway, if I don't wish to change to another attack. Right. But alot of big guys I see dont usually learn this. Yes some,but in my opinion there is a large who doon't. I'm also not favoring little guys, its just I really haven't seen much success on tv or real life with big guys not relying on being large agaisnt at least a somewhat skilled opponent. I just think its unlikely for a larger guy to have a natural skill to be able to learn to fight natural development. But it does happen, I wont deny that. I fell right into that one...I think thats a fair match up. Except one thing: Thats a different topic. In the question presented first, it said what would you rather, being big(gave stats) or being small(gave stats), one would obviously choose who he/she thinks would win, but thats opinion. It never really said that who do you think would win, rather who would you rather be in that situation. Assumptions then don't really matter, because similar as they are, these questions/scenarios, are quite different. You also said that there is a slight advantage towards the little guy, thats giving away really much choice, as anyone is going to want the upper hand.

Well actually, at the higher levels I feel even more contact, its not alot, but its more than what alot of people think. I think it varies alot for each country.

Actually, there are alot of interal training lessons in the higher levels of Shotokan. Also, the higher up, the more capable you are of using soft techniques. But in general, mostly external. Just wanted to get that across.

Same here. Depends on the school, but my experiance involved more contact than expected.