elbows_and_knees

nah. I'm tyson's size - about 5'10 and 225 - 230. I lift weights constantly. Even without proper technique, I would give hell to a guy that weighs 150 - 160 by sheer strength advantage alone. I am an average size, but still much bigger than this opponent. That is why there are weight classes in organized fighting. I've had a judo match against a guy I outranked, but he was 6'3 and weighed 335. He gave me a VERY hard time, just because it's hard to work with his size and strength. my last kickboxing match was against a guy who was 6'3 and 300lbs. We fought to a decision because I couldn't KO him. He was just plain too freakin big. I kicked him in the head and staggered him, but I couldn't drop him. And I'm not a little guy. Look what tank abbot did to a lot of trained guys in the early UFCs.

and teaching the form piece by piece takes up valuable time. boxers don't have to worry about this. That time is spent drilling and sparring, allowing their skills to progress faster. you don't have to. The knowledge in it applies to any style. most of the people on this forum aren't swordsmen, but they've read "a book of five rings" - heck, businessmen read that book. Most people on this forum don't train JKD, yet they've still read "the tao of jeet kune do". it's not about which style is better. It's about which art has better training methods. And it can't be denied that boxers - and sport fighters in general - have superior training methods. real recognizes real. that can't be denied. Anyway, see above about training methods. muay thai and grappling follow a format identical to boxing, as does capoeira - nothing to stick up for, as we train virtually the same. But like I said, real recognizes real. In the past, I've trained karate, kung fu, jkd... While I learned valuable things, the training was nowhere near as intense as muay thai.

In the grand scheme of self defense, kicking really isn't necessary. can be helpful, but is not necessary. For the ring, it's a necessary skill, as leg kicks help to wear an opponent down, and a swift head kick can do major damage, but in a street fight you don't worry about wearing your opponent's legs down, and it's dangerous to kick above waist height for obvious reasons. IMO, punching, elbows_and_knees and some clinch knowledge server him better. Three of those things, he will learn in boxing.

excluding layoff, I've been training about 18 years.

that's not true. as for the original post though, good job. I think most newbs start with that "I gotta win" mentality when it comes to bjj - that is about the only thing that keeps them alive while rolling, as they don't know as many, if any techniques. As time goes on, they learn more and will typically automatically learn to relax. It's all a progression.

There is. But you can strength train and still gain mass, which obviously makes you look better. The isolation exercises they do are not as conducive to MA training as compound. From an efficiency standpoint, isolation exercises are inferior, for our purposes.

depends on the goal - if you are after continued strength and mass, weights are the only way to go. for muscle endurance, no, you don't need to touch a weight. Bodyweight exercises and MA are sufficient. Only way to go? I'm sorry, but that's not an accurate statement. Actually, I swam competitively all through high school and college and managed to develop some good muscle mass and strength without hitting the weights much during the season. I had a 44-45 inch chest and benched 300 with regular swim workouts and pushups. Take a good look at a experienced swimmer's physique sometimes and you'll see what I mean. I'm not referring to a plodding lap swimmer, but rather someone who does interval sets using varying intensities of work. I have competed in powerlifting, bodybuilding, and swimming and have experienced respectable muscle and strength gains with each. Obviously weights are the most efficient solution, but it is a fact that a proper swim workout can certainly build strength and muscle size while developing muscle endurance as well. Respectfully, Sohan two of my thai students are on the swim team. they are strong... but not as strong as the weight trainers we have. the fact that you competed in body building and powerlifting tells me that that's most likely where the 300lb bench came from - that and you said that you didn't lift much during swim season. I'm guessing you maintained with swimming and pushups. However, when I said "only way to go" that was alluding to the best way to go - perhaps I should've just said "best way to go". swimming cannot offer continued increasing resistance - the muscle development MUST stop at some point lesser than it would with weights, which do offer progressive resistance.

I am in the us. there is one in miami this may. in addition to looking great at dances it's good for self defense.

although the bones in the hand can increase in density, I am not talking about them. See what I wrote above about pan qing fu (I think that was this thread... may have been another) He is known as the iron fist. He has a HUGE calloused hand from hitting things - very hard, very dense. But his hand is good for nothing more than a club. From what I hear, he can barely hold a pen in that hand. The bones in the hand and instep are too delicate for this and would cause long term, nagging injuries. weight bearing exercises do also increase bone density.

depends on the goal - if you are after continued strength and mass, weights are the only way to go. for muscle endurance, no, you don't need to touch a weight. Bodyweight exercises and MA are sufficient.

you're in kansas... that's like the amateur boxing capital of the USA. you can't find a boxing gym?

Okay, let's examine some things: traditional styles: history, kata, weapons, numerous punches, numerous kicks, bunkai, iron palm / makiwara training, sparring, calesthenics, etc. boxing: six predominant punches, roadwork, calesthenics, shadowboxing, mitts/bags, lots of sparring traditional training has more segments than boxing. even given that the boxer trained 2-3 days a week, he'd still get proficient faster than the traditional guy because his training is more focused and more repetitious. Also, many traditional styles spend more time on forms than they do on application. boxers through their drills are able to do both at the sime time - efficiency.

capoeiristas have competed in vale tudo events in brazil. There is even a training song about a capoeirista who beat a bjj guy in one. They also have their own events called baptizados.

I've seen opposite experiences also. anything can happen on any given day. you can't discount the value of experience though, and until you have experience, you are really only guessing... Like I said, I don't advocate everyone getting into a streetfight. I'm merely saying that you don't know what you can/will do until you are in one.

Why?

I was responding to this. That is why I said bjj was judo.... using the same context that he was.

There's really no verifiable history on the origin of jjj that states it began outside of japan. Some say it came from china, some say it originated in japan, but nobody really knows. However, japan's other big grappling art - sumo - does indeed stem from chinese shuai chiao.

good post.

nah, the shaolin temples today are mainly for show - they are wushu, not true shaolin. That said though, they do train very hard. Like I said, bruises are a bad thing. This is what I was taught while training kung fu. While sparring, sure bruises happen - suck it up. but to condition until the point where you bruise is like lifting weights and overtraining - it's counter productive and unhealthy in the long run. Have you heard of pan qing fu? look him up. Then look at his fist. That is the result of him punching boulders and various other things daily.

I don't think this will change how the world view traditional ma. It opens people's eyes to wrestling, boxing, muay thai and bjj... none of these are traditional. Very few guys in mma now admit to even having any traditional training. There are really only a small handful.

he either had not trained long or had a horrible coach. no boxer worth his salt would ever be unaccustomed to being hit. even guys that aren't training to compete spar. Since you told your story though... I was sparring a kung fu guy once. I told him that throat and groin techniques were legal. He was unable to hit me in either place. Many of those small targets you focus on are very hard to hit if your opponent doesn't want you to hit them and has any amount of training.

cuz a lot of it is. You have to take into account a few things about boxing as well as fighting in general also: 1. killing and KOing with one technique is VERY unlikely. It is what you strive to be able to do, but will rarely, if ever do. 2. boxing has the same capability. people have been killed from a straight punch to the heart - just a lucky punch with enough force in the right spot at the right time. 3. boxers use more than just punches. They clinch, and there is also "dirty boxing". freddie roach - one of tyson's former trainers - stated the following, alluding to dirty boxing: "If a good hook misses, the elbow lands". 4. What do you think a good hook punch to the jaw produces? A KO. shots to the liver do the same thing. So, you can say that boxers aim for pressure points as well. this is where you misunderstand both boxing and fighting. 1. in fighting, you can't always end the altercation in one or two strikes. 98% of the time, you will NOT. 2. boxers are doing what? FIGHTING OTHER SKILLED BOXERS. It takes them a while to KO another skilled fighter. On the other hand, they would KO anyone if kesser skill - like in a streetfight - quite quickly. When you are sparring people of equal or greater skill than you, how long does it take you to beat them? think about it... dirty box - use elbows and headbutts. And no, most attackers don't do that - it all depends on the situation. pressure point fighting is WAY overrated. and elbows can break bones. so can headbutts.

I dunno... call me old fashioned, but I don't like either of the workouts you guys posted - there are way too many isolation movements involved. This is not conducive to building "functional" muscle. you want compound movements, like the bench press, squats, deadlifts and cleans. Isolation exercises are more body building oriented - they have different goals than the average ma. for ma training, compound is the way to go.

I actually think it's the opposite. People see the wire acts and say either "that looks stupid", or "you can't do that in real life, with no wires". I know several people who think that way. It gives people the idea that kung fu only works with wires.

there are a few reasons. one has been stated - the movies. Second, the facts. there are A LOT of McSchools out there. many people train there - several on this board - even though everyone always says they are part of the 10% that are not in one. Third, the goofy point tourneys and neon weapons. Boxing is void of any of that. boxing is good old fashioned fighting, period. two guys scrapping it out. As said above, the average boxer is WAY better conditioned than the average MA. This is se for several reasons. Also, the average boxer has more fight experience than the average MA.