Traditional-Fist

The area under the heart is a legitimate target in Wing Chun, as well as other kung fu styles. Some karate styles such as Okinawan Goju-Ryu use this area as a target in their mid section strainght punching attacks as opposed to Shotokan that uses the middle of the solar plexus as target in its basic mid section thrust punch. Iin kung fu you can hit this area with various types of fist formations including the dragon fist and the vertical fist, as well as palm strikes such as the ones used by Tai Chi and Dragon stylists. The damage to the heart is more to do with the penetration of the energy of the punch rather than mere impact. Of course, if the impact is strong enough there will of course be damage. This means it is not merely knowing where to hit as one has to be able to hit the right place accurately and in the correct manner, i.e. years of hard and authentic training with a real kung fu or karate master.

How most people naturally deal with this type of thing is to either cover themselves or try to protect themselves/fight back in an incoherent manner, that is unless they have previous experience in another martial art. I bet that was to encourage him to take up martial arts in the first place. I have nothing against "simple sparring" as it is part and parcel of kung fu training. What I meant is that over emphasis on so called "realistic sparring" from day one is not part and parcel of authentic kung fu. What you have just described is not what I had meant by "dynamic". Sparring is also part and parcel of kung fu training as long as it is not enphasised from day one. There are no none sparring kung fu classes that are authentic. Real kung fu needs real sparring, but not from day one. I disagree. Importance of stance training cannot be underestimated in most authentic kung fu style training. One of the reasons that real sparring practise is carried out later on in training is to avoid the compromise of proper stance, and movement in stance, in favour of "bouncing" like a kick boxer or TKD-ist, for example. What you are describing here sounds like good honest kung fu training, in parts peculiar to Hakka Boxing, probably Chow Gar of the Ip Shui linage. If so, this style does not stress stance training in the same way as many of the more "orthodox" kung fu styles. Congratulations, as you have probably found an authentic kung fu school. That will depend on ones patience/school and the century in which one may have have decided to take up kung fu. However, 10 years does sound like a bit too much. Yes! But not the way it is being practised by most people I have seen here in London. Yes, but the students trainned with real masters and trained everyday. And even so, some say that weapons and the principles of the style were taught first to maximise the time/effectiveness ratio of the fighters..... .....and maybe that is why the basics were applicable from day one. Without a solid stance and foundation and correct breathing the above amount to only superficial skills. Were you studying authentic/traditional Wing Chun or was it a modern style? It is my understanding of southern mantis that a great amount of enphasis is placed on Chi-Kung training and basics (in such a way that would probably send an average MMA-ist into eternal boredom if not a coma), of which you have not mentioned anything. Do you indeed practise Southern Hakka Praying Mantis?

I am in agreement with you, although I am not too sure about the percentages, . I would also add that many potential students having attended an authentic kwoon and not having participated in full contact sparring and other "dynamic" activities in the first 2 sessions, never come back and instead choose the local kick boxing gym where they will go on to learn "real fighting". So our culture in the West has a lot to do with at least some of the shortcomings in the CMA arena. I am glad to say there are real kung fu kwoons around, not many, as you mentioned,but they can be found by those who are really interested in learning real kung fu. The old saying: "when the student is ready the master will appear" seems to be relevant when it comes to kung fu training, at least for some people.

Agreed. Good point. Realistic Sparring is a fact of life in any real kung fu school. Even if more often than not the bases have to be grasped and mastered to a degree before it is attempted. As for weight training it is important to add that its main purpose in kung fu is to create resistance power for the muscles and tendons, i.e. no "pumping" or relatively large muscle mass development.

Well put TigerCrane. And there are kung fu schools/sifus nowadays that train their students with the warrior aspects of kung fu in mind, that means they prepare them for effective and no nonsense battle. Unfortunately (at least for the impatient students) battle readiness can take rather longer than some of the more modern martial arts, but hey, no art is perfect I suppose, not even kung fu,

Thankyou very much, very interesting links.

Be prepared for some hard and inspirational training. Let us know how it goes.

Talking about kung fu, I would like to make a significant comment. All major styles of kung fu contain, what westerners might call cross-training aspects. However, they have these within principles and methods characteristic of given styles. That means Northern Mantis ground fighting will fall within principles of that style and not of North American or Greco Roman wrestling. So will their takedowns, takedown defenses, hand/arm, foot/knee/leg strikes. The same is true for Wing Chun and other major Shaolin Arts. In short, most major kung fu styles are complete fighting arts that cover all realistic scenarios. Does this mean that each art contains every fighting technique under the sun? Of course not. What it does means, is that they have applicable defenses and principles that cover all scenarios. So what is the problem? The problem as always is the lack of decent kung fu schools with decent kung fu masters, not to mention dedicated and patient students who are willing to put time and understanding into such a profound art. That is why so many McSifus go around introducing outside aspects/techniques into their arts that already do exist within their kung fu, if they only knew. However, being McSifus, many of them introduce aspects that are in conflict with the original principles of their style of kung fu. Of course, the new additions are marketed as "Modern", "New and improved","More Effective", "Quicker to master" and so it continues. The image created is that Kung Fu is somehow lacking important aspects, such as would you believe ground fighting, 'boxing hooks' etc., where the only thing that kung fu is lacking is good authentic schools and teachers. Don't get me wrong, there are good schools, but in the minority. That means that they are not the image/opinion makers. So to conclude, the chinese WERE crosstraining (within given principles and methodologies), thousands of years before the this type of training was discovered by today´s NHB fighers and modern kung fu "Geniuses"/"Gurus", fighters.......Mc,Mc,Mc.

I would like to know more, please. The web site would be very helpfull. Thank you.

What he is saying can also apply to Wing Chun as well as many other kung fu styles. The forms of Wing Chun have weapons applications as well. This does not mean that Wing Chun is not suitable for unarmed training/combat. I believe that the sensei in question is just looking into a "new" angle in the enchant art of making $$$$$$ and that is my opinion.

Many great posts. Just remember that one of the secrets of martial arts is REPETITION (of course with undertanding of the techniques you are repeating.) The more you repeat the more you will understand and feel the techniques and their various meanings. With constant repetition, you will soon understand that there is more to karate than you thought. Also, remember the old saying "Five years, One Kata." (Or at least, something to that effect). Try to get your hands on some karate books written by Okinawan masters.

This is a typical type of problem faced by cross-trainers. It is best to remember that different styles have different concepts and methodologies, and it is normal that some movements/techniques in one style to feel more comfortable than the equivalent in the other. Some styles will require a certain type of a guard and weight distribution and others will require a different type. My suggestion is to concentrate on one art and of course kung fu would be be my preference, and give up the other so that you don´t end up mixing concepts and theories, which will slow down your general progress. However, if you just want to learn to fight as quickly as possible and just like full contact sparring, then give up the kung fu. Remember, if you are practicing kung fu, you are training in a very profound an rich art, mixing that with a relatively simple art such as kick boxing, then you are asking for confusion and dare I say "cross-problems". If you come to really understand one of the arts (wether kung fu or kickboxing), to the point where you are happy and comfortable with its basic requirements, then you can start training in a second art if you really want to. Hopefully, this way you can minimize any arising confusions.

I have not heard it in those terms. I have heard the remark that all Asian martial arts have been influenced by shaolin. Wether all of them have, I don´t know, but I do know that most of the major ones have. Also, we must remember that all of the shaolin styles were not created in the temple. Some styles had existed before the founding of the shaolin temple. It was much, much later that they came to be integrated into the shaolin system, meaning that not all fighting systems had originated in the Shaoling Temple. It is also worth researching into the main Wudang styles of kung fu, namely Tai chi, Pakua and Hsing I.

Google, "new jersey wing chun ving tsun", (without the quotes). You should get some relevant results.

Hello redii, First and foremost pay special attention to the above advice from HG. There are many people in the world who will try to hold you back, not because of any short comings that are yours, but because of their own personal shortcomings and unresolved issues. So, don´t pay any attention to 'nay-sayers', unless they are experts who may be cautioning you about certain types of excercises and so on. Training in a good traditional karate school in japan will take care of any character weaknesses that you may have. All you need to do is to take the first step and enter the dojo and train and train more, without even thinking about giving up. If you follow that advice you will eventually have a strong spirit (budo/warrior spirit), which is a fundamental part of traditional japanese martial arts study. I.E. You will have guts. It just takes a lot of work on your part, that is once you find a good traditional karate school. Good luck. Traditional-Fist

Northern Praying Mantis is a high level style of kung fu and if your school/sifu is good and authentic, then this style will give you a lot of benefits both as a fighter as well as a person. Is your chi kung class with the same sifu? I am glad that you are practising chi kung, because without out it your kung fu will miss a very fundemental element, making it weak and without essence (no chi kung = no kung fu), and as I said before, your health will benefit in all dimensions. Does your school have a web site I could look at?

If my memory serves me right, Shukokai is based on Shito-ryu karate, or at least the founder of Shukokai was a Shito-ryu master. As a result I believe there will inherently be many similarities between the styles. If I would have to hazard a general guess, then I would say that Shukokai is a more sporty (or sport friendly) style than the older Shito-ryu.

Some great advice from fellow forum members. Don´t over do your trainining, train right and NEVER even consider giving up. Now, I would like to know what style of kung fu do you practise? Also, the healing aspects of kung fu can never be understated. Do you practise chi-kung in a serious way in your school? Major styles of kung fu as practised in authentic schools take chi-kung practise very seriously. I have no doubt that the right kind of chi-kung training will help your problem with arthritis. Another question, does your sifu know about your weight training regime? Just lifting weights (pumping iron) in a gym is not something that correlates with correct kung fu training in general, even though weights CAN be used in a methodic manner for kung fu purposes, such as in resistance training,etc. I am basically trying to find out what type of kung fu it is that you are practising, once I know, then perhaps I can give you more relevant advice.

I think I would as well. But that wasn´t my point. Also, you would probably get disqualified if you tiger clawed your opponents throat and killed him instantely. Luckily for everyone involved, there doesn´t seem to be any danger of anyone with such skills entering the UfCs. You don´t need competitions to be a good fighter and initially anyway, you don´t learn to fight challenges by fighting challenges. There is a different methodology to traditional chinese martial arts training. Yes, real fighting does come into it, but usually in a different way.

Always apologize when its your fault.

That is absolutely right. That is the purpose of drilling. Now, let's think about a similar scenario. Instead of drilling a kata solo and going over bunkai solo, consider the person who drills the techniques repeatedly with a partner, getting live feedback, then works those same techniques in contact sparring. Who will be more apt - the guy doing partner drills, or the guy focusing on kata? The guy doing both will be more apt then either one, and that is how karate was meant to be practised.

That statement might hold true for kick boxers and grapplers as well. How many would participate in a REAL no holds barred fight if challenged by another martial artist that they had never met and outside of a formal event? BTW. Both of my sifus have accepted challenges and have had great success against other stylists including kickboxers and one "not so friendly" match against a Bjj-er. There are other sifus/masters who do the same, they just don´t go around waiving their fists about, etc. Here is another fact, many chinese gangsters are proficient in kung fu and as some here will know, they use their skills serious and even life or death encounters. My sifus and their advanced students are proficient fighters and they have not entered competitions and have not won one medal between them and they are proficient fighters. Couple of them were evem involved when one of my sifus was challenged (attacked) by multiple adversaries. Modern and Traditional martial arts "live" in a different reality at one level at least, that is the training methods/concepts of one is difficult to understand by practioners of other and vice versa.

If nobody doesn´t know what is real anymore, it is because kung fu has been turned into a fast food enterprise. If you don´t believe that there are kung fu masters who can tear your throat then lets give another example, where a kung fu master claws the wind pipe and snaps it. The point is that the end result is the same: a dead adversary. Such techniques are and will never be allowed (thank god) in UFC style competitions. There are many masters, both kung fu and karate, who have never "competed". Traditionally, people who had doubts about any master´s ability (or their own), went ahead and challenged them. This happens even today.

Wing Chun kung fu grappling, at least in the lineage that I practise, HAS ground fighting and grappling. There are other kung fu styles such as the Praying Mantis (Northern) that have such grappling. Kung fu has been developing for thousands of years. It is illogical to think that the masters who developed and improved kung fu through the centuries did not consider grappling or groundfighting scenarios. It is still money. Lets make it free and not charge the public any entrance money. Also, don´t forget that some of these fighters are themselves instructors themselves or at least belong to some schools that have a lot to gain FINANCIALLY if their fighter wins. that is they gain.students,publicity etc. Based on my own martial arts experience of martial arts and life in general, those who have proven themselves never need the feel to be arrogant and tend to be humble, unless they psychological issues to resolve. Also, people who choose to participate in sport activities should at least learn the art of sportmanship. It is not too much to ask. Here is a fact. Real kung fu does exist so does Mc Kung Fu, (majority of schools, unfortunately). What I am curious about is which type of kung fu are you using as a reference in this discussion? What is your experience of real kung fu? For how long? I have come across a news story where a man (a karate practioner) killed another with a karate chop to the throat. You don´t have to stretch your imagination very far to see that a tiger claw attack will have the same effect. Admitedly there are more people who are proficient in karata then there are who are proficient in Tiger Claw kung fu. That is not my fault , but that is what the system is all about, where the bottom line is to kill your adversary, not to win medals. It has not been proven to exist by "western science" that has achieved great hights in helping human kind, but unfortunately it is the same science. whose experiments have "proven" that Fluoride is a safe substance to have in our drinking water; that Aspartame is a safe food additive; that countless other poisons that enter food chain are safe. What I am saying here is that it is unwise for one to make western science as the beginning and end of all things. Furthermore, chinese sciense accepts the existance of chi. Who is wrong?

In the days, years and centuries when kung fu was being developed, a small moving and protected target was still a difficult target to hit. It depends on how the exponent is trainned. Unfortunately, because of Mcdojo/kwoon phenomenon one is not very likely to come across authentic kung fu, and as a result some of the more complicated concepts of kung fu are not easily appreciated nowadays. No you don't. Of course they are. Authentic kung fu schools usually train them. That is your personal experience and I respect that. That is true as far as there is a tendency on striking in most cma but I know for sure that you have heard of dog boxing (kung fu) and I also know that you know that there is ground grappling in cma. Agreed. .....And they can also be classified as cma's. They are also present in many traditional cma's and are trainned with vigour much more than "outsiders" imagine. Kung fu contains both ground fighting and ground grappling (using Chin-na techniques amongst others). ????? No? Not a dime? Please say more..... Money is not a motivation for many street fighters either. When you come down to it for them it is basically the adrenaline rush and some perverted love of violence or both. Of course, it can also be martial research, on some level, that is. That is your experience and I respect that. Wasn't that just a seminar? Your statement is based on your experience and understanding of CMA's and your own main practise in martial arts. No I haven't asked my sifu to tear someones throat in front of me so that he can prove he can do it. You don't have to shoot someone dead to know if a new type of bullet is effective or not. I believe that my statement above that of yours says it all.