Infrazael

Which is why I talk crap about XMA all the time.

In CLF you learn what we call the Rolling Panthers, basically just repeating leopard fists over and over again. Not effective in sparring, but painful without gloves and such. In actuality, lots of stabbing/drilling punches are severely limited in the ring. Which is why alot of kung fu guys can't do as well as they potentially could. . . ... . . I mean, elbows aren't padded, but you can't use a panther or phoenix eye. Which is why my Sihing (muay thai guy) said that in the ring you have to modify kung fu quite a bit to be able to do well. Especially if you don't want to revert to watered-down kickboxing (which I refuse to do).

My Sihing learned Muay Thai from Maurice Smith for about 5-6 years before stopping Muay Thai. He said it was very good.

Haha I was being sarcastic regarding the ultra-low stances of Southern CMA. Seriously, that is only for training in the beginning. Even in the form WHY the hell would you go that low is beyond me. . . . absolutely useless.

Not entirely true. They do the forms for the same reason as any style do forms. To learn and rehearse combat-movements and all that. But they do not fight like they do forms. And the strange movements are generating a lot of power. Someone once told me that it was "power hidden in elegance". Elegance is merely a byproduct of CERTAIN techniques that ACTUALLY WORK. Elegance should NOT be present for elegance's sake. Look at Tai Ji; the movements are done because THEY WORK. Purposely making a system or form "elegant" is a TRAVESTY to martial arts IMO.

Let's see what I would do with my Choy Lay Fut in a one-one-one confrontation -- Kick them in the groin, close in, jam their movements, then unleash as many pantherfists, elbows and knees to their eyes, throat, face, ribs, muscles, etc, etc, etc. . . . . And trust me pantherfists hurt like a mother.

Look at some of these claims, noted by the local Seattle News network, King 5. Please, Oom Yung Doe is FRAUD. It is supposed to be a combination system between 8 different ones, notably karate, hapkido, tai chi, shaolin kung fu, etc, etc. . . . Their so-called "Grandmaster" was jailed in California for tax evasion. They charge an insane amount of money for their classes. I personally know of 4 different people that are ex-Oom Yung Doe practitioners. http://www.king5.com/localnews/specialassignments/stories/NW_021605INKoomyungdoeJK.b55fbaa5.html The following information taken FROM this news article. You will be able to read the entire article with the URL, but I find that to be the most important information.

Be prepared for ALOT of pain, especially in the arms and horse stance. . . . . . welcome to Kung Fu training.

Everyone's dead. . . . .

Yeah, Tai Chi > lots of hard styles. You have to modify it to be effective against Tai Chi IMO. . . ie, I don't try to bridge anymore, instead I just throw craploads of combinations (hence the boxing lol). Good luck with anyone's Tai Chi.

I would do either WC or Choy Lay Fut if you want to learn how to fight quickly. We just had a Northern Shaolin come in to our Kwoon after theirs closed down last week, and he was showing us some of the Northern forms. Very flashy, pretty, cool, but seriously, NOT for combat unless you stuided for quite a while IMO. Alot of strange movements, low stances, jumping, all that stuff you seem to find in movies. And not Wushu either. Wing Chun = you stay in a box, essentially. Very defensive compared to Choy Lay Fut, and from what I gather doesn't have very good defense against big overhead attacks. Very theoritical in nature, straight punches, depends on structure, low kicks, VERY linear. Choy Lay Fut = you have mobile footwork with a very strong root. Like Hung Gar but more mobile, or less mobile depending on your taste (i'm not that mobile compared to others). But root is very strong. Lots of longarm techniques, designed to crush the opponent by bashing THROUGH them. Not very theoritical, we just do our techniques and fight instead of talking about "gate theory" "centerline" "pillars" "bridging" etc. Like Hung Gar we have powerful bridges, but done in a very different manner IMO. And very fast too, unlike Hung Gar. Choy Lay Fut always links their attacks together in succession regardless of bridging or not. There are 10 baisic punches called the "10 seeds of CLF." Master those, you basically got the system down. 3-5 core hand forms depending on Lineage, 2-4 advanced hand forms, lots of weapons (you usually don't have to learn them all), and a few dummy forms. Very hardcore training, unless your lineage is Doc Fai Wong (they play CLF like Tai Chi, a no no for all other CLF peeps). Lots of forearm conditioning, and alot of schools teach iron palm and sometimes iron shirt. Partner drills are also good. Most CLF will also have alot of bagwork involved, if you're up to it. Helps you use 10 Seed punches well. Not much kicking at all, the Northern aspect of CLF comes from teh footwork, and the way we swing our hands. So essentially the destructive power of Southern styles coupled with loose, swinging Northern motion and footwork.

I think you misunderstood me I do Choy Lay Fut that is the only system I practice, I just happened to try using it against Tai Chi once and the Tai Chi was very tricky to fight against.

Yes, sparring. Mostly for me is medium to heavy contact (always with gloves, headgear is negated sometimes). Not as much full contact, but I can live with that since my kung fu is still quite weak compared to others. When my sihings and I are more proficient with our Fist then we will decrease the rules. Right now we don't use much elbows and knees, but trust me that's going to change VERY quickly.

Tai Chi vs. typical Southern Kung Fu? Very tricky question. First of all I would actually be more willing to fight another Kung Fu player than a Tai Chi player. Tai Chi is extremely tricky to counter. . . . when my Sifu does it it's like he slips from everything I do. Everything my Choy Lay Fut has taught me is difficult to put up against Tai Chi. Even bridging is freaking impossible (or I'm just not good).

Lol never mind that. So have you checked out the CLF school yet? If I may ask, who is the Sifu, what the lineage is, what branch (Hung-Sing, Chan Family, or Buk Sing), and if they have a website. That would give me information on how to judge them.

Because that's all I do and care about about, essentially. Ok, martial arts and pretty girls. And food. . . . and cars. . . . . and raves. . . . and music. . . . OK I do have kinda a life.

Not all the time. I'm not a big expert on Tai Chi, but they do learn how to fight, and it's not just "dim mak" death touch. It's an internal martial art, whereas external ones such as my Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar can be compared to a Wrecking Ball or Bulldozer, Tai Chi is more like a "wave" in its terms of attack and energy.

Tai Chi like I said is deadly and brutal. I've experienced just a small amount, and I don't think I want to any more than that.

Lol hell no, I just do alot of research. MA is my life, besides MA I have no life lol.

Tai Ji when used right is freaking scary. My Sifu has taken it for about 6-7 years now. . . . . when he does the moves on me to show me, they are EXTREMELY deceptive and destructive. I actually think it might be better for self-defense (NOT ring fighting) than my Choy Lay Fut.

I am 17

Oom Yung Doe is FAKE. I know of 3 people that take it. It's supposedly 8 martial arts in ONE. The main instructor (founder), Iron Kim, was told to the students to be on a meditative retreat, when in fact he was actually in jail for tax evasion.

Thanks alot. I am also planning on joining a MMA/Muay Thai/Pankration school this coming winter (when I can legally drive). I really don't consider any move we have to be "too deadly" to use in sparring. Can't hold a proper Leopard Fist with gloves on? Use a normal fist instead. I don't see why we can't use all our techniques in sparring, like a lot of TCMA people are like. If anyone has more questions I will be happy to answer.

Thanks for the compliments. Although I had some help from friends on other forums, and some of the stuff was taken from their previous descriptions of Hung Gar. However by myself I was unable to answer that precisely, so I am glad you found my handicapped answers to be helpful. I do not want to take full credit for being that knowledgable about Hung Gar. That goes to the many wonderful Hung Gar practitioners whom I have been lucky to meet on the internet. Without digressing further, yes I have used the dummy before. I have not learned the dummy form yet, I am still conditioning, and I don't think I can handle it at my current state, nor am I that advanced in the system. However, I will always practice Sam-Sing Forearm conditioning on the dummy if a partner is not available. We have 2 at my Kwoon; I plan on getting myself one when I go to college, to have in my dorm or apartment. Anyways, it would be great to hear from you Hung Gar players on what you think of us, how things differ, what you think we could improve upon, the weaknesses, strengths, etc. It is always great to have another perspective. Peace

Goju -- I will answer as best as I can. 1. Choy Lay Fut does have animal forms, the "5-Animal" form is present in most of the branches (not sure about Buk Sing though). However, depending on what animal and fighting dynamic you are into, CLF might not be for you. Choy Lay Fut, in my branch at least contains Crane, Snake, Panther, Dragon and Tiger. However, Snake and Dragon are virtually nonexistent in our other forms and fighting applications. Tiger is present but is not that emphasized, except in our form Fu-Pow (Tiger-Leopard). Crane and Leopard are the most popular animals, Crane due to all of our movements being similar to the Crane style (only the movements: methods of attacks still differ drastically from "pure" Crane systems and forms). Leopard, or Panther, is the most emphasized aspect, especially in the Buk Sing branch of CLF. In that branch they will use the Chop Choy (stabbing/drilling punch) with the Pantherfist over the other attacks, and the system contains a huge amount of forward driving energy. However, other branches of CLF, such as the Lau Bun Hung-Sing, is more "static" (e.g. Hung Gar-like at times), while my branch, Lee Koon Hung CLF (a mixture of Hung-Sing and Chan Family CLF) is extremely mobile, emphasizing speed, aggression and a driving energy similar to Buk Sing, although perhaps not as much, and our preferred techniques differ (Sao Choy vs. Chop Choy?). 2. As for grappling, you're better off taking something like Judo or Juijutsu. What Choy Lay Fut does contain are basic takedowns and throws, and very basic chi na I believe. However, they are not as advanced as the ones you will learn on the pure-grappling arts. In my school we spar using San Shou rules so takedowns and throws are a massive part, it is one of my primary weapons against larger opponents. However if a school does not learn San Shou, you should really learn some Judo or Juijutsu (I don't think BJJ will compliment as well as JJJ). 3. As for that school, it looks promising, however, he really knows 3 styles? There are CLF Sifus that know more than one style, but rarely do they teach all of them. Be careful how much he truly knows about CLF. And all of those titles on the website do not appeal to me one bit. Be sure their school offers sparring, and full-contact sparring, padwork, large amounts of drills, bagwork, and such. I cannot STRESS ENOUGH the necessity for a Choy Lay Fut, or any kung fu school for that matter to allow each student to develop his or her individual "flair" both training-wise, and technique-wise. Make sure the Sifu is up to par with the practical applications of the style. Make sure he drills basics continuously and intensely. If you are all about the practical side of kung fu, will he constantly badger you about how well your forms look? My sifu knows that I fight, and he doesn't corner me about my forms too much. I actually spends most of my time sparring, doing techniques, drills, and bagwork. Will he allow different dedications with different students? These are all necessary, and crucial factors to consider when taking up a kung fu style. Kung Fu is too caught up in this fantastical world of "deadliness" and arrogance. Choy Lay Fut is not something for show, it is not flowery, nor is it meant to be beautiful (the aesthetic aspect of CLF, which is has, is simply a by-product of the techniques and power generation methods, but inherently still there). CLF is meant to be destructive, quick to learn, easy to understand, and simply an outstanding form of self-defense, which can easily be turned into the ring. I train for competition, and self-defense outside of ringfighting simultaneously, with everything I practice, whether it is forms, bagwork, drills, applications, etc. Go and try that school, and don't forget to ask questions. LOTS OF QUESTIONS. Good luck PS -- PM me for more info, or email me at Infrazael_Daemon@hotmail.com