Infrazael

Go to a full contact San Da school and tell me they don't fight.

Hahahaha. . ... wayyyyy too many differences. First of all, Hung Ga is a pure Southern style, and Choy Lee Fut is an amalgation of 2 Southern systems and 1 Northern (to keep things simple, don't ask for me to dig more. There are some differences in opinion). CLF utilizes "Bin Jin" or "whipping power." This is created through extreme rotation of the waist and arms, all in one motion (the body has to move as a whole to produce maximum power). The legs, however, are extremely stable, and very Southern in nature. You could say that CLF is Northern Longfist played in a VERY distinct, Southern flavor. Although, don't get "Long Fist/Arm" confused with "Long Range." CLF is a very close-ranged fighting system -- things will obviously work at far ranges, but they are only most devastating and effective at point-blank ranges. Hung Ga, on the other hand, is obsessed with "Gum Jing" or "Metal Energy." Contrary to CLF, this is done with a locked waist, hard power, lots of dynamic tension, and a sacrifice of speed for producing maximum power. I know Hung people will hate me for this, but IMO, this is the less efficient and effective way to play. In the later levels, Bin Jing and Gum Jing both produce roughly the equal amount of power -- however, Bin Jing doesn't require you to practice dynamic tension 24/7, it doesn't require you to undertake the huge amounts of conditioning required for pure, undiluted Gum Jing. And thus, Choy Lee Fut guys typically start fighting from the get-go, while Hung players wait a bit longer for their bodies to become more conditioned. Of course, this is also dependent upon the school, Sifu, student's capabilities/talent, etc. The focus on Animals are also different. Hung is really a powerful and efficient interpretation and cross of Tiger/Crane, although IMO, it's more Tiger than Crane. Leopard, Snake and Dragon don't get as much attention. In CLF, we focus on the 2 "common" Shaolin Animals: Leopard and Crane, with Leopard being the predominant force, and Crane being taught usually at the more advanced levels. However, thsi doesn't imply that Crane is superior; it's just not as well developed IMO as the Panther. To CLF peeps, Panther is almost a science. The way we utilize the Panther/Stabbing Fist is extremely precise and scientific, much more than any other style I've come across. CLF also uses the typically unspoken and unwritten animal: Elephant. We liken our smashing, swinging strikes to the Elephant's trunk in motion. This is seen in Gwa, Sau, Kup, Tseen Ji, Biu, Pek, and Lan Choy. . . . .. Virtually all of those are forearm/backfist strikes of some sort, or a combination of the two (where the fighter can use either one). Another thing, Hung Ga is VERY southern in that it BRIDGES. The bridges are practiced constantly -- closing the gap, gaining limb contact, controlling the opponent, then smashing their way inside while controlling the limb. There's alot of crossing legs, then using the Tiger Claw to grab, push, Ping Choy (level fist -- like a boxer's cross) up real close, using elbows, etc. . . . but all of this done with a heavy hitting mentality of Metal Energy. CLF is essentially an. . . "Anti-Bridging" system, meaning that we DO NOT seek to actively bridge. In fact, you can try to bridge all you like, it wont' make a difference. We DO NOT NEED THE BRIDGE to be effective. In fact, in Chinese this is something called "Dissolving Hands" in which if you bridge, we "dissolve" away. . .. then return to hit some more. CLF's strategy is similar to Hung's in the beginning levels -- close the gap, cross the legs, maintain point-blank range and control. . . but instead of controlling your limbs, we like to knock them away with Pek/Gwa choys, then proceed to OVERWHELM you with a barrage of Lin Wan Chop Choys, Gwa-Sau-Chops, Poon-Kiu Sau Choys, etc. .. translated to. . . .LOTS of hits with pantherfists, forearm strikes, jabs, crosses, uppercuts, hooks, stamping fists, rolling stabbing fists. . . . . all the good stuff. All this pretty much boils down to: Hung Ga: close range, overpowers opponent with less attacks, more concerned with control. Choy Lee Fut: close range, overwhelms until opponent has no response time, keeps on overwhelming. The "overkill" mentality. .. . coupled with pantherfists, this is extremely destructive.

Astrael, how much are you paying for lessons? And please, for the sake of Jesus, ask what style you're doing. "Shaolin" means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The "Shaoling Temple" is a fake tourist trap. . . . . The Shaolin temple brings about $10 million revenue into China every year, $6 million of that goes to the government. The current "Shaolin Temples" promotes modern Wushu. . . . which means, pretty gymnastics based upon classical Wu Kung movements. If you're learning "Shaolin" then I'm sorry, you're getting crap training with no relevency in actual classical Kung Fu fighting. Your story seems like the typical fake Kung Fu top-secret Shaolin Temple deal to me, with a secret "Master" who learned from the "Temple." If you want to fight, go join up with CFREW, as Chow Gar Tong Long is a real style, and his Tiger is also a real style (btw, Chow Gar isn't a Shaolin style -- it's a Hakka style. Not all kung fu is 'Shaolin'). EVERY legitimate Kung Fu player knows his own style and roots, history, lineage, story, and legacy. But all those fake ones all claim to be from "Shaolin." That means absolutely crap to our minds. Go to a good Tong Long, Hung Ga, Choy Lee Fut, Baji or Pak Mei school if you want to fight. Stop messing with this FAKE Wushu. BTW, "Shaolin" is just one type of kung fu. There is also Muslim, Tibetan, Hakka, Wudang, and Omei. Buddhist and Daoist, which are extremely different. Short Fist and Long Fist, Northern/Southern, Internal/External, Hard/Soft. If you can get a LEGIT lineange, chart, style name, then I'll give you props. But don't just say "Crane style" or "Snake Style" WHAT Crane style? There are at least two: Tibetan White Crane, and Fukien White Crane, which has ZERO CONNECTIONS TO EACH OTHER. As for the other animals, "Tiger" has at least 3 implications: Fu Jow Pai, Black Tiger, and Hung Gar. Other styles such as Jow Gar and Hung Fut also rely heavily on "Tiger." There is no Leopard style in and of itself. Snake. . . what snake? Omei Snake? Tibetan Snake? Shaolin Mei Hua Chuan? Can you answer this? Can you tell the differences between Viper, Cobra and Python in terms of the Snake style? Your instructor should tell you all about these things. And Dragon. . . .. this is the interesting one. The only REAL "Dragon" style is Lung Ying -- aka, "Dragon Shape." It is a HAKKA style that is not related to Shaolin arts.

I'm fighting in a Kyokushin tournament come April. Full Contact Bare Knuckle No punches/elbows to the head No submissions/grabs/clinches Pretty much everything else is legal.

Kinda like how Muay Thai likes to fight at Lumpinee and the other stadium (too lazy to spell it. . Rachsomething). Actually Kyokushin looks pretty hardcore, again it's more of their tough training discipline. However, I have to point out that I personally know several Kung Fu schools that spar/train bareknuckle, WITH hits to the face allowed.

in terms of training methods, yes, it is more brutal than most. Thai boxing as a whole is known for that super intense training. hung gar is not, for example. most styles where hard competition is involved have this rep - thai boxing, bjj, wrestling,mma etc. It's far more brutal on the trainee in terms of training, not necessarily in technique. no, but before heavy bags, they DID kick bananna trees. The bark of the bananna tree is a tad softer than other trees, so they could kick them without tearing up their shins. Yeah, I know about the Banana trees. I'm talking about old school CMA stuff though. Not that non-sparring, no-contact stuff. . . . For example I know a couple of Hung Kuen schools that are full-contact, participate in San Da often, and frequently trains/spars bareknuckle as well. Plus massive conditioning. But I know what you mean. If you're not training to compete, the chances of training to improve and becoming better is much lower. . . since you have no goal to accomplish, and no time limit to do so.

You're a CLF guy? May I ask what Molum Pai Kung Fu is then?

Good post elbows_and_knees!!! I pretty much agree with you there. Ah yes there is angular footwork in boxing, but still when you compare that to the angular and lateral motions in CMA, it's still less. Anyways that's a different topic. I like how you said it's more of a attack philosophy that differs, and thus why we utilize a different set of techniques. I do agree, many CMAists would bring themselves inside a zone Western Boxers hate very much, and even stranger to the Boxers it that many a times the CMAist stays in that zone!!! Whereas the Boxer usually strikes, invades, attacks via combinations, then evades away from the "punching range." Peace

The idea is RELAXATION. I believe that traditioanal Okinawan Karate teaches this as well. Also, your punch is NOT DERIVED from your arms. This may sound contradictory. . . . but your arms are only a SMALL ASPECT of a punch. Correct stance, positioning, torso rotation, etc. . . In terms of KUNG FU, unlike Boxing or Muay Thai, we use a Rooted stance. Meaning that the feet are firmly planted on the ground. . . . Thus generates potentially less power than Western Boxing, but the added advantage is Root, stability, and various other, nasty things we have at our disposal. . . . Also, jamming the legs, arm bridging, longfist techniques, etc. . . all possible. You should NOT tense up you arm. This creates less power. Force = Mass * Acceleration (I know this has been done to death, but it's an easy model to use). Your mass isn't going to magically increase as you punch. Thus, it is IMPORTANT to train your stances, because throwing a punch from a Rooted stance means that a huge amount of power is derived from you. . . . buttock muscles. Also, be sure to use your waist. A tense arm = a locked arm. No power. No speed either. (unless you're doing boxing, but that's another story. they generate power differently from kung fu anyways). Even in Muay Thai kicking and Boxing punching I have been taught the concept of relaxation. For example, a Muay Thai roundhouse has the entire leg as a "dead leg". . . relaxed, loose, everything. Right before impact, you tense up the knees, lock your leg so it's more like a baseball bat, and SLAM into your opponent. Your kung fu punches should be similar.

I'm going to quote Sifu Dave Lacey here. He is a master of the Buk Sing branch of the Choy Lay Fut style, which I do (except I'm under Lee Koon Hung branch). Keep an open mind and train hard. Peace

Eh. . ..... not any "more" brutal than my Kung Fu school or other hardcore schools. . . . Hung Gar, Kyokushin, some Jujutsu I can think of. . . . Mostly it comes down to to training methods. IE, at my MMA gym we spar/train with 16 ounce gloves (unless we're training with Pankration/MMA, then we wear MMA gloves). This is to protect your hands, and protect your partner. We also wear shin pads, cups, hand wraps. We don't have head gear for some reason, but I don't really mind it. I can get my own. Plus, most "sparring" you won't be elbowing your partner in the face to begin with. Too dangerous, he might not be able to go to work the next day. The point TRAINING is to train in a safe and positive atmosphere. Training is NOT "fighting in the cage." Most people get confused. Lastly, Thai Boxers don't kick palm trees.

I am training in both sides, Orthodox in MMA class, Southpaw in my free time, and both when doing Kung Fu. It is VERY vital to Kung Fu because of the angular attack positions and footwork presented. . . . . differnet biomechanics and positiong shifts when attacking, counterattacking, and retreating. Many times, the footwork involves stepping INTO the opposite stance. But depends on what you wanna do. If you're gonna train both, you need to train about twice as much IMO. For example, when I'm doing Southpaw my Cross is much, much weaker, which is why I'm train to work the hell out of it right now.

I was watching a video of one of our Choy Lay Fut guys against a Karateka a few months back. It was from a comp. several years ago. Our guy essentially RAN towards the Karateka. . . . did a "Poon Kiu" (like a double blocking thingy, except u hit the other person's limbs/face, backfisting etc. . . ) into a "Sau Choy" sweeping punch with the forearms. . . . The kid was out cold for about 10 minutes.

Are you guys saying when he throws the hook, smash inside of him and attempt to uproot/break his structure? So, attacking while he is attacking as well (provided that you cover as well, probably).

After starting MMA, I still say that I'm not a fan of overhand hooks. Mabye it's because I do kung fu also, but I like normal hooks for a quick, power punch, and our "sau choy" forearm strike for a overhead KO punch. From what I know the overhand hook isn't meant to break a guard, which is why I don't like it. Plus mabye it's just me, but the way you position your shoulders when doing an overhand hook is a little discomforting and unnatural. My 2 cents, Peace

I was trying variations of this with a bujutsu sparring buddy of mine. I threw the right hook. He did what's described above then with his other fist hammered a glancing blow to my bicep and down to my bent forearm. It nearly pulled my shoulder out of its socket and put an S bend in my neck. The arm was useless. He then applied a wrist lock pushing my elbow to the floor. It was all over red rover. I was very surprised at the effectiveness of the trap and the blow. Yeah, it's very simple and effective. It's even better with straight punches, especially from karatekas, since most of them fully extend their punches, and don't pull back fast enough. Plus, you see them coming from a mile away. Hooks can be a bit tricky because they tend to have alot of power put. No matter, if you have conditioned forearms it should be him who's in pain.

Being a Choy Lay Fut guy who also trains in boxing, I think I can answer this. There are a few ways actually, the safest being to duck, weave or fall back outta the way. However, we throw so many hooks, overhands, sau choys, kup choys and ching jee choys that we've managed to develop all sorts of neat counters. My favorite is still the basic Chuen Na -- intercept, bridge, grab (without gloves), control. I do it to my karateka friends all the time, it's great. Anyways what it is is an outward block/strike thingy. . . they throw a sau or a hook, and before they can get enough power, you throw out the cheun. Shoot your arm outwards at about a 45 degree angle, striking his wrist/forearms with your own forearms. Your hand should be an open palm facing outwards, and you should be able to easily shift and twist your wrist as to grab, seize, pull, etc. The bridging and controlling is crucial. Once you make the bridge connection, close the gap, jam his legs and start the work (for the Southern guys). Pound the hell outta him before he can recover. You can either A) move into him or B) move outside of him.

NO. Muhammad Ali, Tyson, Buakaw, even other kung fu artists would break Lee in half.

You're right in that bridging is not necessary, but it's still damned fun. It's also a great way to control. You do MT right? They way I look at it, you guys bridge too, just differently. Elbows > Knees > Clinch = uber bridge.

Another thing I find karate lacking is the concept of bridging and jamming, which is extremely prevalent on Southern CMA.

Depends on which system. Choy Lay Fut, yes. That's what it was designed for in the first place. . . . sweeping punches, circular techniques, lots of backfists, etc. . . . all meant to have a large, arcing trajectory capable of striking foes in multiple pathways and angles. Then you have stuff like Southern Mantis, Lung Ying, etc which I think is not as good for multiple opponents, but against one is extremely devastating in a 1 on 1 scenario. Now I'm not promoting against CLF, that's seriously what it was designed for. Now of course, you can be like me and focus very much on the single opponent game as well.

my longest time. . . . it was either 8.5 or 9.5 minutes. But once you get around that range, you're in pretty good shape. And remember, NEVER, NEVER go low in a fight and pull a crazy horse stance. EVER. Remember to use your bridges, jamming, body positioning, closing in, then destroying your opponent with all of your weapons while his body is jammed. Elbows, knees are all very good to use.

Find a school that uses what they teach, find a down-to-earth Sifu, and make sure the other students know how to fight. If those criteria don't match, find a MMA or kickboxing gym, cuz alot of kung fu schools suck balls.

What I've seen of clf doesn't resemble western boxing at all - the swinging techniques I've seen are WAY wider than textbook boxing punches. Different footwork too. Thai boxing systems, whether they are old, new, etc, etc. all of the elbows you saw were muay thai elbows. most people have only seen the upward, downward and cross elbows. Not many know of the stabbing, spinning, rear, jumping etc. Same with knees. people don't know about the jumping, spinning, half, slapping, etc. variations. it doesn't look like kung fu to me. It simply looks more traditional. Mabye, that traditional Muay Boran and several forms of kung fu are quite similar in many respects?

What about chinese MAs ?? what we know about them is much less then what we don't know ?? The only reason that a tiny thai boxer can k.o ppl bigger is because he trains harder and from an early age , I don't think that there is any hidden techniques in Muay thai Almost all chinese arts are useless and outdated. There are a few that are effective: Shiuo Chiao - is a deadlier nastier stand up grappling art than Judo. The only thing it lacks is groundwork. Choy Li Fut, Bajiquan and maybe Tajiquan are other brutal arts. I don't know much about them. But I heard they are simple and to the point unlike other chinese arts which has more style than substance. CLF is good, solid, and easy to learn. Train as hard as a Thai boxer for 6 months and you'll be just as good in fighting as one of them. Another thing you'll notice is that we look alot like western boxing in many respects, the swinging punches, the uppercuts, the bodyshots, etc. About this thread: It has provided alot of good info regarding the different Thai boxing systems, whether they are old, new, etc, etc. Oh yeah and Ong-Bak just looks like Kung Fu with more elbows and knees than Muay Thai.