spinninggumby

Hi Shaolin My knowledge of the specifics of Wing Chun is extremely miniscule, but it is to the best of my knowledge that there is not much focus on grappling? Correct me if I am wrong. Your positive opinion on the effectiveness of Wing Chun is obvious, but I am curious as to what your thoughts are concerning cross-training. Do you feel that if one studies and trains hard with a committed soul under a credible Wing Chun instructor, that he should not study anything else (perhaps for fear of intermingling ideas or concepts or even information overload)? It is hard for me to see the harm for a Wing Chun practitioner to dabble or practice a grappling art, like, say, Brazilian Jujitsu. I am not implying that Wing Chun is a flawed or incomplete art. Just because an art does not include techniques which may be needed in certain aspects of combat does not make it incomplete, but that is a different topic. But say you are on the street, and someone jumps you from behind and takes you to the ground. You are caught off guard. With your excellent Wing Chun skills, you are a master of distance control, sensitivity, trapping, centerline targeting, and ultimately neutralizing the enemy from close or even perhaps any type of standing distance (this is all from a layman's point of view). However, once you are on the ground, it is a whole new ball game (for lack of better term). For the sake of argument, would you agree that there are indeed other concepts or skills that other arts may have to offer (i.e. perhaps how to effectively and quickly neutralize an attacker in a ground situation)? It is just my humble opinion that no art has all the answers, and no art is the best simply because no art will ever work the best for everyone (therefore there can never be an ultimate art). I am not saying that you refer to Wing Chun as the ultimate art with all the answers, but if you do, then refer to what I just said Once again, I am only assuming that Wing Chun includes little to no grappling training. So once again correct me if I am wrong. _________________ Want to know if a man's ideologies are correct? See if he is happy every morning as he arises from bed. [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-09 23:34 ]

My sentiments exactly :smile:

I agree with that!!! :angel:

Wow, I even managed to annoy the great Angus. :razz:

Well I wouldn't say that the makiwara is 'dangerous' but I would think that there is some degree of risk to arthritis or joint pain later on in life, and that's never fun But true true Joe, I like your attitude, sometimes it's important to live for the moment and have a blast

okie dokie Changie boy. Somewhere along the line of your traditional training, didn't your sifu/instructor teach you tolerance and calmness? How strong can you be if a few posts are able to put you off sooooooo much. Obviously my provoking has worked towards such a feeble and insecure soul as yours. People who are secure don't get miffed so easily!! It's not wise to engage in a conflict with a mind filled with anger and clouded judgment. It's been a pleasure talking to ya btw doesn't it piss you off that even though I am using such cheesy Kwai Chang Caine remarks, that they are still getting to you? hehehehehe Don't let it happen! It would be bad if you were affected by verbal techniques that ironically correlate with the martial movements that, in your eyes, are useless and a waste of time: Fancy aesthetic expression with, in your opinion, little or no weight/significance and/or practical value. bottom line: since u insist that you ALSO use modern training as well as traditional training, then I assume that you do see the value in some aspects of modern practice. So our disagreement is over a little petty horse stance, okie dokie So we will just have to part ways accepting the fact that you feel that a 2 hour horse stance is just fine and better than anything we could possibly do and I believe that there are much better ways to condition your legs. Period. Gotta go now. Pop tarts are burning and I am very hungry! [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-08 18:16 ] [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-08 18:48 ]

Very good advice and insight, SaiFights Thanx!

I like the front thrust/push kick, the turning kick, the side kick, and if I have enuff time the spinning back kick. The front thrust is good for intercepting, taking the wind out of, or stopping ur opponent in his tracks and then afterwards if necessary you can follow up with whatever u want. In self-defense it's probably best to stick with the low front snap or front push/thrust to groin or solar plexus or other vital places but in TKD sport and tournaments a lotta times the turning kick is like what everyone uses 90% of the time. [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-08 14:14 ]

Anything that fits my mood. Sometimes when I have had too much caffeine I love techno or some type of dance and sometimes when I am mellow... Well actually come to think of it I like that fast dance stuff best LOL b/c I love anything that gets my blood pumping! But I will take any other type of music that appeals to me b/c music is just vocal poetry, some more pleasant to the ears than others. :wave:

If u scroll up back to my very first original post, you will notice that I specified that I was exaggerating when using the '2 hour horse stance' reference as an example. Not to mention that I 'realize' that the horse stance is not used just to show off squatting and various methods of taking a sh*t. Obviously you did not see thru that the first time hehehehe LOL You are getting angry. Angry is a sign of weakness and loss of control and rational thinking. Ur vocabulary becomes more simple and sentences more terse. Calm down Chang. I liked u better when you actually tried to make sense LOL Don't get frustrated or let this ruin your weekend b/c of some guy on a forum who doesn't agree with you haha. You can call my words rambling, if that will make it easier on your mind rather than actually understand or comprehend what I have to say. Peace! :grin: [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-08 00:24 ]

I am not an advocate of 'modern martial arts' over 'traditional martial arts'. I advocate constant improvement and the willingness to abandon traditional ideas when needed. New and improved ideas just happen to fall into the 'modern' category. There is a big difference.

LOLLOL bite me in the a$$? By golly I think I've pissed off someone No matter what your words say, you display the aura of someone who harbors hostility or contempt towards for all those who do not decide to stick to tradition. Watered down to fit the masses, that's funny. Your world, and my world, was watered down when we discovered indoor plumbing and electricity. What do you think you are using right now? I believe it is a computer. Having a computer makes us among the richest percentile in the world. I find it hard to believe that you (or I) would do well under the harsh conditions that the vast majority of the world faces. As a result of all this 'watering-down to fit the masses', man does not have to work as hard to survive and we have laws to protect our well-being. If you are so inappreciate of these, why don't you go and live by yourself in the mountains and live off of twigs, or perhaps pack up and take an all-expenses paid trip to Beirut or Afghanistan. In the small likelihood that you would fare well there, it would do well to satisfy your ego so you would have the peace of mind that you would be a top candidate for something like the Survivor poster boy or something. Of course martial arts isn't easy. If it was easy I wouldn't want to learn it. That doesn't mean that I am not willing to look for smarter and more effective ways to train. Smarter and more effective does not equal easier, it just means what it obviously insinuates, 'smarter' and more 'effective', as in less risky and less likely to damage your body. Since you agree that what works for you won't work for everybody else, I think it would be time for you to open your hypocritical eyes and stop castrating those around you who do not agree or follow your ways Next to someone who clutches to his ego like a lifeline, nothing is more pathetic than one who is so narrow-minded he cannot stand the fact that even others may do certain things for different reasons (i.e. martial arts? LOL). [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-07 18:40 ]

I c, u are one of those who will not abandon tradition simply b/c it is tried and proven and it is the 'tough' thing to do. I prefer modern science, which contrary to popular belief does not IMHO clash with religion. So if you want to sit in stance for 2 hours and have your teacher force stretch you that is fine with me, but whatever works for you may not work for me or someone else. The credibility of a man's ideologies and views can only be judged by viewing the degree of happiness, and fulfillment in his life. Mucho BS, no? But still makes mucho sense. Obviously if something is working for you, I would not change the way you think. Different opinions on this board there are. Do not assume that just b/c one is not willing to go through certain aspects of 'hard traditional' training that one does not have any work ethic and prefers the easy way out. As far as I know, my 60 year old neighbor does not participate in any type of physical or mental training (modern or traditional)whatsoever and is a fat lump who enjoys football Sunday, so obviously he could not stand up to those traditional masters. And I do not prefer an electric toothbrush either nor do I enjoy clams. :lol: Refuse to change or adapt, and you just become swept away in the times, forgotten. Nobody ever achieved recognition or was seen as anyone great or inspirational by copying someone else to the letter and reaping the fruits from his/her accomplishments (if fame is what you are looking for). Likewise, change is also vital because we as martial artists have already had to refine or modify many of our drills and self-defense practices due to the invention of gunpowder/firearms. It would be incredibly foolish to assume that we should not aim for new advances. _________________ "Being able to move in and out of styles, movements, and rhythms with ease is the highest skill." - Donnie Yen "If you have to resort to violence, you've already lost" - Rising Sun "The finest steel emerges from the hottest furnace" - a smart guy [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-07 16:36 ] [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-07 16:45 ]

Although I may encounter extreme disagreement from some hard-core people, I would have to say that the funniest (although not intended to be funny) and worst martial arts series of all time has to be the Street Fighter videos starring Sonny Chiba. Ok, raw skill and proficiency in karate aside, his facial expressions constantly switched from someone who was drinking sour milk to someone passing a kidney stone. The teaser line on the box says 'If you have to fight, fight dirty'. This guy is sleazy, despicable, and a fighter-for-hire whom we are supposed to root for only b/c he doesn't 'voluntarily' go around murdering people like the bad guys do. I could not stop laughing. It was the biggest ab workout of my life. I couldn't have been more sore the next day if I had done a thousand crunches. hehehehe

Well I would just assume that hitting the makiwara, although it has definitely proven useful and practical in the past, just isn't as practical, efficient, and 'safe' as hitting a heavy bag simply for the fact that there is less risk of injury (bare hands to hard surface). It is not that the makiwara has no value. Obviously it does, something made people keep coming back to it. But there are just newer and better and safer ways to do it. I am also not saying that the makiwara is dangerous, I don't think it is really. It's just not the best idea. Just like how traditional kung fu practitioners (and probably people from other styles as well) used to condition their knuckles by hitting hard surfaces until the skin broke open and they bled profusely. This we now know is detrimental and actually harmful. It is best actually IMHO to hit the surfaces until the knuckles whiten but the skin has not broken yet. There are some out there who even say that doing this is bad b/c it leads to arthritis later on in life. Go figure, who knows I have conditioned my hands in the past and I have bled once in a while but have been careful not to push it. So far my hands are doing just fine but perhaps when I am 50 I may see the arthritis although I don't anticipate it. The negative eventual side-effects may happen to u and they may not, but to many it is an issue of 'why take the risk' or why do it a certain way if there is another safer and more logical way which also offers you the exact same purpose (i.e. strength, power, speed, etc.) Anyways the fact is that you can still exert effort in order to develop power on a heavy bag just like you can do on a makiwara, but I guess you might just have to deal with the 'wussified' factor of not feeling the pain of your body making contact with another wooden or hardened surface. _________________ "Being able to move in and out of styles, movements, and rhythms with ease is the highest skill." - Donnie Yen "If you have to resort to violence, you've already lost" - Rising Sun "The finest steel emerges from the hottest furnace" - a smart guy [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-07 13:12 ]

Hey Cory I know exactly what you mean and I agree with you. The only thing is that my WTF instructor always teaches the turn kick as the hybrid sparring version (i.e. turning hip over 45 degrees instead of 90 and snapping it diagonally upwards). I practice the way you have described as well. This was the method that was taught in my traditional kwoon before I took up tkd. In fact, when your hips are turned over like a side kick (i.e. full 90 degrees), you get maximum potential height with the turn/round kick. However, this also means that you have to lean more as opposed to the previous version. For some that is a very acceptable sacrifice. _________________ "Being able to move in and out of styles, movements, and rhythms with ease is the highest skill." - Donnie Yen "If you have to resort to violence, you've already lost" - Rising Sun "The finest steel emerges from the hottest furnace" - a smart guy [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-07 09:44 ]

When you say that the horse stance is hard to master, what do you mean by that? That it is hard to learn properly? Or that it is hard to stay in that position for long periods of time. Any technique, stance, block, whatever, gets harder as you either stay or repeat the said technique over and over and over again due to physical exhaustion of your muscles, and is not exclusive to a certain stance such as the horse. I personally do not find the horse stance hard to learn (as most people would not, it is one of the first things you learn, if not the first), but perhaps would find it quite difficult to sit in a horse stance for 2 hours. The horse stance mainly stresses your quadriceps and your adductors, which is why some experts recommend isometric adductor stretching in a horse stance position so as to enable the side splits, but I digress. To me it would seem much more practical to do adductor flies or other exercises which specifically target the quads or the said inner thigh muscles. IMHO it is always wiser to isolate each muscle group and train it separately from the others (at least at first), whether you are stretching the muscle to increase flexibility, isometrically tensing it, or strengthening it thru resistance. The horse stance puts stress on many different muscle groups in the body at one time. This IMHO is not a wise choice if you are working them all at once for a long period of time (i.e. 2 hours). Work each group separately (including stretching and strengthening the ab muscles and lower back and spinal area. Contrary to popular belief, performing the splits is not a very beneficial stretch because it, once again, stretches and works many muscles and joints at the same time. You are much better off isolating each section so that each separate muscle receives maximum benefit and maximum individual attention. The splits is just a showthing, or a stretch to provide as a benchmark for one's impressive flexibility. _________________ "Being able to move in and out of styles, movements, and rhythms with ease is the highest skill." - Donnie Yen "If you have to resort to violence, you've already lost" - Rising Sun "The finest steel emerges from the hottest furnace" - a smart guy [ This Message was edited by: spinninggumby on 2002-03-07 02:36 ]

I understand and am well aware of the importance and significance of the horse stance. However, standing for 2 hours in a horse stance is unnecessary and overkill at best, and detrimental and harmful to the knees and joints at worst. There are much better, more effective and more practical ways to achieve the conditioning benefits of horse stance training than standing in the stance for 2 hours. 'Nuff said. By the way, nothing wrong with being a little girl. :lol: :lol:

For some reason I never noticed this thread. I am 22 and I still feel like I'm like 18 but I wish that I could have more of the outlook of an 'adult' LOL. I get carded at every single bar and there are people out there who still think that I am 15, which sucks big time. One time I went to pick up my cousin from a middle school dance and some girl asked me if I was one of those older 'sophomores' and I felt like screaming. Love getting that sugar high so I am always all over the place so I always feel immature and hyperactive

anyunghaysayo - hello in Korean kam sahamnida - thank you in Korean btw I'm not Korean lol

Wadup Zulu Muay Thai is good stuff

Very wise words, Pizzaboy Welcome to the forum Old Kicker :)

kam sahamnida, Xiao Ho and Old Kicker

Thanks Heami!

Well hmm, I'm not sure, perhaps the initial rotation of the shoulders may be used to allow easier movement of the hips, but I would still somehow think that most of the power comes from down there (hips and waist). The twisting of the shoulders may be a setup or a catalyst/prelude movement to the kick, but I would still feel that the primary power source (maybe it's different from 'original' source) is around your middle. If I were to choose between excellent shoulder torque/strength and excellent hip and waist strength/torque for kicking techniques, I probably would choose the hip and waist. One of the main reasons would be b/c logically the waist and hips are more centered towards the middle of your body and therefore have a bigger overall effect on your legs as well as torso. But, you make a good point, and it's something to think about. However we can both agree that loose shoulders and a loose open hip and waist are incompromisable.