wing chun kuen man

Wing Chun Kuen Man

Kempocos, Thankyou for the web link. Wing Chun Kuen Man

We were testing your. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Maybe we need to divide this question into specific parts, for example: What is the best type of MA for cardio? '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' selfdefence? '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' kicks? " '' '' '' '' '' '' '' relaxation? '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' selfconfidence? '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' false selfconfidence? And etc.,etc,etc. This way we can give more specific answers and not general ones like "all MAs are good" or it "depends on who is the practioner" etc. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Faisal, There is not one best style. I do believe however that there are best STYLES. There are a couple of threads in this forum that talk about the top 5 or top 10 selfdefence martial arts. Go through them and evaluate the differente opinions. Remember that a great self defence style is nothing without a competente instructor who knows his stuff and teaches it in the correct manner. Ideally any martial art training will train your mind and spirit also, to react the correct way in a real situation. You can know all the deadly techniques in the world but if our spirit is weak then they will do you absolutely no good. I hope that you find a good style and a good school. Good Luck. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Spaceman, Let me tell you about my personal experience. When I started training traditional Wing Chun, I had about 3 months of Shotokan Karate training under my belt. I continued to progress in karate as I practiced in Wing Chun. Eventually, the two came into conflict. The main reason for this was the fact than in Wing Chun you need to be extremely relaxed while performing the techniques. I am sure that how relaxed you are varies between the various styles of the system but take my word for it that in our school you needed to perform the techniques in an extremely relaxed manner. On the other hand in Shotokan it was hardness that was emphasized and many of the tension priciples were different. To switch mindlsets between the two MA´s was not very easy and eventually I chose to stay with the Wing Chun. It is a pity that I could not do both, because the Shotokan school was a very good and authentic school. I would have liked to have been able to practice both - not because I believe in cross training, because I don´t (not the way it is sold nowadays anyway) - because I was lucky enough to find 2 great instructors within walking distance of each other, and also because I am striking/hitting kind of a guy. Anyway that was my reason for not doing both chinese and japanese MA at the same time. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Raze, I practice traditional Wing Chun. I really don´t know any thing about Wing Tchun. I do seem to remember an ex-Leung ting oraganization member forming his own variation of wing chun in England. It might be his "style" of wing chun that you are referring to. Maybe another member of the forum can varify this. As far as I know Leung Ting has already "modified" Yip Man´s system and maybe if my guess is correct, then Wing Tchun may be a "modification" of Leung Ting´s system. My personal advice would be for you to look for a Wing Chun school that is traditional. This means it is faithfull to its lineage and has not been "modified" or "improved" nor "made more practical for today". Because usually these are marketing terms. All they mean sometimes is that the style has been simplified and the training standardized and made less demanding and this is done to attract and keep more students. Wing Chun being the type of style that it is, you may learn some usefull skills even in such schools, but you won´t learn many others. As far as I know a well trained Wng Chun exponent need not fear any style. Having said that of course as you may have heard, it is not always the style but also the fighter that determine the outcome of any confrontation. Also, Wing Chun is not the only effective kung fu style howevere, there are others, such as the Praying Mantis (and its variations), Bazhiquan and the Shaolin Five Animales to name a few. Besides using differente concepts in combat these styles differ in the time span required to master them. Remember. Whatever style of kung fu that you choose make sure it is authentic and the instructors are qualified or you will end up getting very little benefit - if any at all - from your training. Good Luck, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Hello kempocos, Thank you for that info. Can you recommend me any good web sites with info on Taikia Oyata´s RYUTE system. Wing Chun Kuen Man

JerryLove, My country does suffer from vendetta violence but far and far less than many people would imagine, mainly because people tend to think twice before they take the first step or start the ball rolling. Again, there are cultural factors involved in the point made above. Vendetta violence is more common between the mafia gangs, but that is another story. I agree with your fighting philosophy. However, there are times that you really have to hurt the other person or he will make mince meat out of you. Obviously an extremely well trained fighter with high levels of skill will manage to control even a dangerous assailant without necessarilly hurting him badly. I personally have a long way to go to get to that level. There are other times that as I mentioned before, you have to traumatise your assailant so that he won´t come for you again and catch you by surprise. Shall we say that, my 'overekill' approach is for such situations and not for the 'common' ones. At the end of the day these are only options and they may work for one person and not another. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, You don´t seem to be reading my posts. I was trying to say that the reason that I describe my style as traditional wing chun because IT IS. That is all. The rest is in your head and has to do more with your own insecurities regarding what you practice then anything implied by me. Kung Fu is a traditional martial art and traditional kung fu is authentic kung fu. The only thing that I am implying is that it is not modern "kung fu". But I will say again, I believe it is the best description for the art that I practice, at least in a public forum. If that intimidates anyone then it is their problem. One more thing: "..after all who can argue with 'real traditional kung fu'"? You said that not me. "if you practice kung fu and.......", That statement was not directed at you but to that master of "iron skull" kung fu. The reference was to "inform" him of the relevance - to our 'discussion'- of the fact that kung fu techniques were passed down from generation to generation, and not wether his or your style is real or not. Don´t put words into my mouth. I know my style is real, and that is enough for me. I hope that you know wether yours is real or not. It is your problem if it isn´t and your blessing if it is. However, if you are happy with your kung fu style then it is not even a problem. I believe that I have explained what "my" dit ja jow "actually does" only about a dozen times in this thread, thus demonstrating to you that I know what it is used for. You don´t want me to actually repeat it again do you? Ok, I will - it treats bruises and soreness and protects against longterm ailments associated with such conditioning. It has worked for my sifu and for his grand master, who have been training iron palm for many years. I think that you guys are the ones missing the point. What you don´t want to admit is that there are realities and concepts that you do not know and/or don´t understand. [Don´t worry though you are in good company because a lot of the "great minds" in the west don´t understand such concepts either, and cosequently deny their existence. ] So what do you and your pseudo-scientist friend WhiteWarlock do? You demand "proof" and "evidence" and try to create an "intellectual" argument while all the time DENYING that you are actually arguing - it is rather clever. For you guys it is not enough that some of these linaments work and and have been used for generations by many kung fu and karate masters, and that some of these medicines are formulated by experts in chinese medicine, whom did not get their formulas from the internet. You "experts" did not even know or chose not to, that such linaments existed, I recall something to the effect of "very,very few preventative medicine in chinese medicine", in one of your posts, and "nothing is going to prevent ailments associated from conditioning exercises....." in one of that "dud", White Warlock´s posts. [Just a thought, could it be that White Warlock and his brother, the physicist come hippie were typing the posts together. I have this image in my head of his brother inserting the "dudes" and the "buds" into his posts, just like any self respecting hippie would. It is just a funny image in my head and I don´t mean it as an offence, absolutely not.] When I proved that such linaments existed by referring you to a second, "outside" source, Morio Higaonna, 9th dan master of Traditional (his description not mine - but feel free to criticize him), Goju-Ryu Karate ,instead of "growing" you keep at it. No I am not an expert in Chinese medicine, and nor have I claimed to be and neither are you and neither have you claimed such talent - if I was, I would be practicing it - and nor am I expert in Western medicine. I believe that you may have some knowledge in this area that may be superficial and then it may not be, but you ain´t no expert. I don´t demand a list of ingredients every time I need to take a couple of pills either (which is not often, thank god), for them to work is enough for me . And believe you me you are not likely to be given the ingredients of such linaments that easily, that is why "..ingredients of these medicines are closely guarded secrets", Higaonna´s words not mine and as a result I cannot tell you the ingredients and actually I would not even if I knew. As you read this post, White Warlock is combing the world wide web searching for Higaonna´s email, soon he will be sending Higaonna an email, telling him why his traditional chinese linament does not work - I wonder if he is going to address Higaonna as sensei or will he use the more scientific terms "dude" and "bud". By the way my sifu knows the ingredients, that much I know. If he ever wants me to know, I am sure he will tell me. The POINT in question should not be MY knowledge of such medicines, but the knowledge of the people WHO FORMULATE and PREPARE this medicine, because that is what in the end DICTATES wether such linaments work or not. And of course they worked for my sifu and his grand-master and his masters before him. That is the POINT. I merely said that in our school we use such linaments and that they are used by other such as Morio Higaonna. Wether Higaonna´s formula is the same as ours is not relevant in this discussion the relevant factor is its EFFECTIVENESS. If it hasn´t done anything else this thread has improved my typing much more than my martial arts knowledge. Ok, if you want me to repeat the relevant information YET AGAIN, please don´t hesitate to leave me a post. Otherwise just read this post again or refer to my previous posts which basically basically state the same facts with a couple of entertaining differences of course. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Lupin3, Actually I printed that article WC and MT, a while back, now I just have to find time to read it. Personally, I think that he misunderstands Kung Fu - just a little - or maybe it is to do with his school of thought, but at the same time he has some good knowledge and opinions, and his website is very interesting. Well about Wing Chun, well everybody knows that it is not the best MA but it is one of the best Wing Chun Kuen Man

Lupin3, But according to what I understood in his site, he seems to be more pro Muay Thai than kung fu. He recommendes that kung fu be modernized so that it can match Thai boxing and modern contact fighting in general. He also considers Muay Thai superior to Sanda. I think I better go back and check out the site again, just in case...lol Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, I did not know what your style was until you told me. In my opinion it is good to list your style so that people who do not know you (and there must be new members signing up in the forum all the time) can see where you are "coming from". Actually that is one of the only real references we have about the people who post here. You choose not to and that is fine by me. I never said wing chun is wing chun and karate is karate. I will repeat, I believe putting "tag" of traditional is the best way to describe my style of wing chun in a public forum. This "tag" is not an opinion it is a fact. "Traditional" kung fu or even karate has a lot of meaning for someone like me. Don´t put "traditional", "classical" and "modern", in the same category as "ultimate" or "real". The latter ones are opinions and the former ones are descriptions - or at least they should be unless they are used deceptively. I know that Shotokan karate is differente from Isshinryu and I think that any one who lists or says that he practices karate should mention the style as well. Just like I do. I practice kung fu and my style is Wing Chun and yes it is traditional. Remember, that Shotokan has its variations as well. So where does one stop. If someone lists his style as lets say Bam Bam Suzuki Shotokan karate, it will not make any sense to me. If he lists it as traditional or modern Shotokan, then I will have a good idea what he practices. If I have any more questions, then I will ask him personally. Anyway, point taken, however, I will stick to traditional for now. Dit da jow. Throughout my posts about the this linament I have made referrences to "my school", "my sifu" "our formula" "real"dit da jow, and "authentic" dit da jow. Somewhere, I also mentioned that I have never bought this linamente commercially . In another place I mentioned that there are formulas that you don´t get in the internet or in "cook books". I quoted Morio Higaonna saying something to the effect that in china the ingredientes for these linaments are kept secret [ he did not say the effectiveness of these linaments depended on who the users are and their bodies, either]. However, based on the little bit of knowledge that I possess on chinese medicine I would guess that they could be "fine tuned" for an individual based on their chi and inner body heat, but that is not the point. We are talking about general medicine here and not prescribed or specially formulated for individual use medicine. All these referrences and statements point to the fact that there are special dit da jows and there are not so special dit da jows. The specials ones heel and prevent and the not so special ones (that apparently anyone, including White Warlock , can make) do a good job on disinfecting and healing bruises (short term). Again it is all there in my posts. Now, I believe that if you are using the authentic stuff then it will generally work. Rather like or maybe even more so than many modern and "scientifically" researched medicine/remedies that seem to work for some and not for others (but minus their side effects, but that is another topic for another forum). Wing Chun kuen Man

JerryLove, I see your point and I respect it. Self control has to be always respected and used whenever possible because it is usually better in the long run. However, when I said that "two eyes for an eye leaves you with one good one" I am demonstrating a fighting philosophy as well, that is you do more damage to your enemy, that way, you come out of it better than him, "one good eye". Obviously, if it happens again, the outcome is independent of wether you took one eye for your one eye or two eyes in your first encounter. As far as my country goes that is the way things happen a lot of the times. Yes you do have a point that there is a possibility of them shooting you to prevent "repercussions" but it is no guarantee for them because they risk another member of your family or friends/"gang" going after them and in such cases, their death might lets say be an "unusually" painfull one. I believe that this reality makes "casual" criminals contemplate their actions more, knowing that their worst problem is not necessarily the police. This works in many cases as a better deterent than highly bureacratic law enforcement in in first world countries where criminals are better protected than the law abidding citizens for the sake of "human rights". There is relatively low street crime for a country with such a weak economy and high levels of poverty, there are other cultural reasons for this as well. Having said that, however there is a powerfull and viscious mafia in Armenia, that is just to show that no where is perfect.....lol I think letting go of such incidents is easier when you know that the criminal element were caught and punished by the authorities. In Lucky's case this did not happen and one feels his frustration. Maybe the passing of time will bring the solutions, whatever they may be. A point that no one has mentioned is this. Lucky did not like the fact that he had to "back down" and feels resentfull of perhaps not "doing more", eventhough he did absolutely the right thing. Those criminals may have the same sentiments about Lucky and even more so, because there were 4 of them plus a gun against one of him, minus a gun and he made them back down too. I don´t know whether where Lucky lives is a small place or wether these scumback live close to him, but I believe it could be an important argument for a "pre-emptive" strike. LuckyBoxer. As I and others have said here, cool down and so clear your mind. Then you can work your actions. If you feel that you can let it go and that you have little or no chance of crossing paths with these loosers again, then maybe it is better not to do anything, principally becausethe law is more often than not on their side (not accidentally either, but that is another topic for another forum). Whatever decision you make I hope that you make with a clear mind. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, I am beginning to think that your lineage of kung fu is White Warlock Wing Chun Kuen - where the sticky hands stick forever. You just don´t want to let go do you? And, by the wayI have aready given you details of my Wing Chun lineage when you asked for it in another thread. I hope that you remember them, because I am not going to give them to you again. I will present my style the way I choose and I don´t need you to tell me how to describe my branch of Wing Chun. Maybe you don´t like me to call it Traditional Wing Chun, but I do, and I think that it is the best and most practical way to describe the Wing Chun that I practice in a public forum, and that is how my sifu describes it, in general. You said it is a "personal gripe" of yours, then control it. That is what kung fu is all about , self control. By the way, you don´t even list your MA style under your name, but what is that got to do with me, you are your own man and you can present yourself anyway you choose. Show me the same courtesy. Dit da jow linament. Let me explain yet AGAIN (that damn fluoride) - In my Wing Chun school we use dit da jow linament to treat bruising and soreness for the SHORT TERM and to prevent ailments associated with LONG TERM conditioning exercises. This means that with the type of conditioning exercises that we practice short term bruising and longterm ailments are an EXPECTED cosequences and for this PURPOSE that we USE our dit da jow linaments. That is what this (our) linament is FORMULATED for. You can call it herbal medicine, chinese medicine or kung fu medicine. It does not matter, it has its PURPOSE and was not invented yesterday, nor were the iron palm exercises that we regularly train. That means there are expected side effects (through centuries of experience) of these training methods, and that is where the dit da jow comes in and my sifu considers its use important enough to provide it free of charge to anyone in the school is in the iron palm level of training. One more point, we do train the right way, as I suppose Morio Higaonna and many like him do as well, but even so the linament is there to PROTECT against longterm damage as well - obviously, if one trains the wrong way by punching solid objects until his hands are bloodied ,etc. (DUUH!) - nothing will to prevent long term damage to the limbs. Wing Chun Kuen Man

The only difference is that David Copperfield´s profession is based on illusions and tricks where as Mas. Oyama profession was a Karate figher in the bushido tradition. However, I do see where you are coming from. I personally would like to see a couple of clips showing the full version of the bullfights just to get a better idea about the health and conditions of the bulls. Having said that, I would not even want to face a sleepy or even a sick bull in unarmed combat. Wing Chun Kuen Man

DrunkenMonkey, By traditional wing chun I mean traditional wing chun that has not been "modified" and that has its lineage in mainland China. I appreciate that there are other branches of traditional Wing Chun on the mainland that vary slightly from one an other. Also, I can even appreciate the fact that Hong Kong Wing Chun is referred to as traditional as well by many of its practitioners, because, despite having been "modified" by Yip Man, it has kept its essence. Personally I would say, that it is very possible that what he taught in Futshan was more traditional than what he taught in Hong Kong, as he took out various techniques from his Hong Kong version. That may be "the difference" that you referred to. I suppose the same could be said of Funakoshi´s teachings in Okinawa as opposed to his teachings in Japan. What do you think is the more traditional karate? By the way if someone has copyrighted "Traditional Wing Chun" then good for them, however it does not make our lineage of wing chun and the way we train it any less traditional. Also, I think it is not practical to name the gran master or the last recognized "big cheese" every time I mention that I do Wing Chun. I will stay with "traditional wing chun" thank you. Dit dai jow. My sifu who has been doing hand and leg conditioning for many years has not suffered any crippling affects as a result. His own grand master who is much older than him does not suffer from any ailments associated with such conditioning. I have mentioned this fact before in this thread. You guys should pay more attention to the posts when you read them. By the way, my sifu´s gran master does not have this status in wing chun only but also in shaolin five animals and Lohan among various others , most if not all of which involve iron palm training as a part of their mastery. Howeve, we are only taught the wing chun style. The type of injuries that this linaments prevent and protect from are mentioned in my previous posts - basically bones and joints deterioration from long term conditioning. Have a look at the video I recommended. Again, I will say that you are not obliged to believe me nor Morio Higaonna and nor many other masters who use such linaments, independent of the names they use for them. Wing Chun Kuen Man

zuluking, Everyone has made some good points. I would just like to say that failing is part of learning. You have learnt that you are not as good as you thought and that is not a probem, it is a plus. When you get back to your training work on your problem areas and just keep training regularly just like you always have. You are upset now, but give some time and you will see that it will be ok. Also, don´t worry about your classemates, believe me that they have had their fair share of failures in the MA´s if not in life, everyone has. I have had my fair share of self doubt during my kung fu years. The solution? Keep training and don´t give up. You have a great attitude about karate. You just want to train and learn, and that is enough for you to succeed in the martial arts. Now if you are still awake, go kiss the wife and think about the good things in your life, like the fact that you have a woman who cares about you and the fact that you have never failed before at anything - not many of us can say that . Relax your mind with these positive thoughts and sleep tight. Also, try not to take any valum to help you sleep. The use of such drugs are not good for your health and as a result will not be good for your karate. Good Training. Wing Chun Kuen Man

muaythaifreak, Fair enough. About the bull fights. I have seen a short clip of one of Oyama´s bull fights. It was short but enough to see the bull gore him and then it being taken down and him chopping at its horn. There are clips of Mas. Oyama available in the following site: https://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/kyokushin.htm Wing Chun Kuen Man

LOL. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Luckyboxer, Two eyes for an eye, leaves you with one good eye. I don´t just understand your frustrations but I almost feel it. I am glad those b@$*@#ds did not pull the trigger. Then don´t call you the lucky boxer for nothing, huh?...lol If your incident had happened in my country, those guys and their pets would be dead right now. I live in Brazil for now but I am not brazilian, I am Armenian. In Armenia things are different and we have our fair share of scumbacks, some of whom reside 6 feet under the ground . There are two places for skumbacks one is the cemetery and the other is a hole in the ground. However, before you decide to de anything you must give yourself time to cool down and think about the best way to do, or not to do things. I will say one thing. The world is full of immoral cowards and I am sure that you know that. Here in Rio you have cases where armed muggers rob a victim and then shoot him just to see him and even her, fall dead. And no these things don´t happen because people are starving or anything, that is just a myth. These things happen because evil people are allowed to benefit and get away with such crimes. This happens as a government/establishment agenda to keep the people in fear, of course with a lot of help from scare mongering media who at the same time somehow do their best to protect the criminals´rights every time one of them is blowen away by the police. [This policy of keeping the public scared is not just peculiar to Brazil either. Where in some countries the fear factor is "bandidos" in other countries is the fear of "imminent war", "invasion", "civil war" or "the terrorist threat".] Anyway, back to the relevant point. Someone quite rightly mentioned cosequences. You know if you kill any of them then there is the legal matter (unfortunately). If you just beat them up then they can still call the cops - eventhough I don´t think that it is as likely as other people think it is - or just come after you and catch you by surprise one day. The likely solution will be to not just beat them up but to traumatise them and that would mean to break some bones, cause extreme pain and psychological intimidation, including threats to their loved ones,etc...showing them that you are not alone and have a lot of muscle behind you etc. I have personally seen this work when a jamaican yardy type tried to intimidate a colombian friend of mine where my friend turned him into minced meat (with his hands) and the "tough" yardy eventually started crying after getting bloodied and suffering various fractures. We never seen or heard of this gangster again, I think he is a member of the Jamaican National Ballet nowadays...lol If you can make trauma "therapy" and intimidation work, then they will nor call the cops and nor come after you. However, it is a very tricky thing to get right. By the way, I am not advising you to do anything, I just demonstrated what in my opinion are possible solutions. However, I will repeat, COOL DOWN first, that way you will think clearly and you might even want to let it go, who knows. Wing Chun Kuen Man Wing Chun Kuen Man

WhiteWarlock, This discussion may be a a hijack of the thread, but you are the one who started it. You are the one who started the insults as well, with your pompus attitude and [don´t?] know it all comments, even if in your own "great mind" you thought you didn´t. Morio Higaonna´s video. You are the one making false statements. Morio Higaonna is talking about longterm protection or prevention, when demonstrating the use of the linaments and explanining them, he states "......prevent any problems that may occur in life as the practitioners get older". If that does not refer to prevention and longterm protection then I don´t know what does. Earlier on in his demonstration, he refers to its property of "the prevention of deterioration of joints in old age". In the same segment of the video Morio Higaonna demonstrates an internally taken medicine as well, which heals the internal organs from any damage that may have occured from training and also to prevent deterioration in old age. Here is another quote that you will like, "traditionally in China the ingredients of these medicines are a closely guarded secret". Just like Coca Cola I suppose, but where Coca Cola can cause harm in the long run these medicines are supposed to help the user. Of course they are, because they are medicines, right? And I know that possibly they will work for some and not for others, just like extensively tested and researched western medicine. One more thing. There are fomulas for these type of linaments that you may be able to get in the internet or may be even "cook books" but there are others that you cannot and that is a fact. It is all there in the video, so why don´t you go back to it and instead of "checking it out " watch it another 4 or 5 times. And read my posts again. It might sink in after a while. You will see that all I said was I use the linaments and explained their effects and backed it by my knowledge based on what I have learnt from sifu and my training in traditional Wing Chun. To further my point I presented an "outside" example and that was Morio Higaonna and his video and somehow you managed to "misinterpreted" that as well. I am beginning to think that "Iron Skull" will be a better definition of your Kung Fu style. Wing Chun Kuen Man

aefibird, Thank you anyway. I will search in the internet may be I can come up with something. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Here we go again "bud", 1. In our traditional school of Wing Chun Kuen we use dit dai jow linaments for bruises and sourness etc. and to prevent long term ailments associated with conditioning exercises. Herbal linaments for such purposes are used by other martial artists, for example Morio Higaonnna 9th dan Goju-Ryu Karate. To varify or substantiate my claim you may purchase and borrow his video on makiwarra training which contains the relevant information. 2. I do not and have not made claims of magical or mystical powers and attributes as to its effects on my health or training. For me it is just a weird smelling herbal medicine that we use for short term healing/treatment of bruises,etc. and long term prevention of ailments associated with conditioning exercises. Morio Higaonna does the same with his herbal linamente and does not claim that it has any miraculous effects. So far you are the only one that has made references to special "powers", "mystical" and "magical" properties. You should reread my posts to absorb what I have been saying and re-read yours as well to see that you are being rather silly and immature. As I said before I don´t need you to believe me nor are you as you put it "supposed to follow me blindly" . Maybe what you are supposed to do is what every one else in this thread has done, that is they have given their respective opinions and/or have made their statements and period. Again, I will repeat I don´t really care for your opinion, you care, and that should be enough for you . The FACT is linaments are used for above purposes (1 and 2) by myself and my fellow wing chun practitioners our sifu and his own grand master who by the way is not a cripple. Now that should be simple enough to understand, "dude" unless in your area the drinking water contains above average fluoride levels, or do you habitualy swallow your toothpaste, as well? I mean how difficult is it for you to understand a couple of simple statements? I.E. 1 and 2 above. As I said before you are arguing for argument´s sake and accused me of doing it when I made this statement before. If you have any more doubts about what I said then look at points number 1 and number 2 again and again....that is all I am saying. If you think that the linaments that we use don´t work, then good for you and don´t worry because you are not the one using them. If I die using them, then don´t worry because you did your best to save me. Wing Chun Kuen Man PS. Interesting info on the toothpaste companies but don´t you think that as well as paying spin doctors and PR agents they may have a couple of "great minds" in their pockets as well, or maybe even among their share holders, just a thought (i.e. I can´t substantiate it). PLEASE, take the time to look up Doctor Hardy Limeback, you will find it extremely interesting.

Beka, I am not a doctor but I would say that don´t torture yourself, wait and see what the doctor says. It could just be a temporary condition. Be positive. Wing Chun Kuen Man