wing chun kuen man

Drunken Monkey, I think that both definitions are correct. If Shotokan is not as "deadly" as the original arts from which it was derived, then it is watered down. But then you are right because this occurred when Shotokan was "restructured for a different purpose". Just my opinion. I still think that Shotokan is an effective and even deadly style of karate if the practitioner spends the time and the effort to master it and search for its martial essence. And obviously he or she has to do that in a good dojo with a real shotokan sensei who knows his stuff. Wing Chun Kuen Man

What does not make sense is that they do not seem to have the profile of a typical "McDojo", as they seem to be a very low profile school. Also, isn´t it possible that when they do free sparr full contact they don´t actually do it with the purpose of killing their classmates? E.g. chopping each other´s throats, etc. Didn´t Kyokushinkai karate have a similar philosophy earlier on in its history?did any of its practitioners meet an early end during this period? I am just looking for answers. The site also mentions special training that prepares them for full contact fighting. Also, I thought that the term Okinawa-Te was a general term for describing the empty hand fighting systems of Okinawa such as Shuri-te, Naha-te ,etc. and not exclusive property of a particular style(s)/school(s). Does anybody have any more info? Could it be that when they say that their school is "the only one school for Ancient okinawa karate...." they mean to say that it is the only one that uses "the Ancient okinawa combat karate rule - Uri Kumi Go". That is, they are not saying that they are the only ancient style. Like I said in a previous post, the implication seems to be that Sindo-Ryu is an ancient school of thought on how karate should be practiced, rather than an individual style of karate. I just think that name calling and making references to "cults", "room full of idiots" and "drugs" regarding this school is wrong. Instead of curiosity I feel that there is a bit of animosity towards this school. This confuses me (even more than the actual web site....lol). Some of this animosity may be due to cultural and intellectual differences and/or bias for one. Two, could it be that some of us who practice tough and "macho" contact martial arts (yours truly included) don´t like the idea that there are other schools that may make us look like we are nuns practicing ballet? I don´t take anything at face value, however I would like to find out more about this school before I make up my mind. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Ripper, I agree with you there. Just a thought, what if a sissy does not want to be a sissy anymore and makes up his mind to change and wants to take the martial arts path to achieve that change? What are his chances? What if there are 10 sissies who like him have made up their minds to train in martial arts to overcome their sissiness? How many could make it till the end? I don´t know, but it would be interesting if there are any senseis out there who have made men out of sissies or have taken in someone who would not normally last in the martial arts and made a decent martial artist out of him/her. Anyone? Hey, maybe we can start a new thread "sissies and the martial arts" lol - just kidding. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Interesting comments. I don´t really know wether this school is secretive or just low profile. As far as I know Sanchin kata, was of Okinawan origin as it is practiced in traditional okinawan Goju-Ryu and To´on Ryu karate styles among others. Actually it is supposed to be an Okinawan version of a southern shaolin form, or so I have read somewhere. According to the Russian master, one enters full contact after one year of training first, to build up resistance etc. So, beginners are not expected to participate in full contact sparring. And to me personally the school does not look like a cult. There were a few japanese names mentioned in the interview, that of Meitoki Yagi(10th dan), Takayoshi Nagamine (9th dan) and Hanashiro Naito(6th dan). Could it be that Sindo-Ryu refers to the training methodology rather than an individual karate style. That is, a school of thought on training as opposed to a school of style? After all the site lists 3 main okinawan karate styles while at the same time describing okinawan karate as Okinawa-Te. Remembering that the site states that the Sindo-Ryu headquarters are in Okinawa we must acknowledge the fact that that karate training in okinawa is a different ball game to that in the west ie. training extremes that would result in law suits here in the west, that is if anyone would stay long enough to get injured in the first place. I remember a long time ago I read an interview with an Okinawan master, I think it was Morio Higaonna, but I am not sure, and he said something to the effect that the high intensity of training in his younger days resulted in him having blood in his urine after the training sessions. Tommarker, Eventhough I am interested to find out more about the Sindo-Ryu school, I don´t really want to train there. I already have my hands full with my traditional Wing Chun training...lol. I am just very curious. D. Lopez, you asked what would be the motivation for someone to enter that kind of training. Well, I personally think that on one level is the same as a Thaiboxer´s or Kyokushinkai practitioner`s...they want contact, realism and maybe to be closer to the warrior/bushido path. The difference is that with Sindo-Ryu they may taking their quest one level further (maybe Sindo-Ryu´s purpose is to separate the men from the boys..lol). Actually, I think that Mas. Oyama´s kyokushinkai was closer to Sindo-Ryu when it was first created, then it got tonned down for the sake of popularity, but even so it is still one of the "hardest" combat styles around. I am going to go through the site again and see if I missed something. Until later, Wing Chun Kuen Man

I don´t think that your comments are fair. The Sindo Ryu school seems to be a traditional martial arts school and they practice their system in a traditional way based on traditional values. Why assume that they are a room full of idiots? I did not see anything on their site that implied that they were. It is not very likely that we will see many people from this style doing much, primarily because it seems that not that many people practice it outside of Okinawa for obvious reasons. Also, winning competitions and medals does not seem to be their main training objective. However, it was mentioned that some practitioners (Russian) enter full contact competitions. So who knows may be one day we will see one of these guys in action. Until then I am willing to keep an open mind. At the same time, any doubters with money can by a plane ticket to Okinawa or Moscow (dojo address provided on the site). Once there, they can find out for themselves through challenge matches or even "friendly sparring" or simple observation. I know for sure that if I am ever in Moscow in the near future , I will surely drop in at the dojo and have a look and see how they train, spar etc. Wing Chun Kuen Man

I suppose what it comes down to is the development of maximum power to cause maximum damage in the shortest possible time. Different martial arts use different methods and concepts to develop this power. Weights are a common tool in many styles, however, in some schools such as mine, weight training in general is regarded as more of an hinderance than a plus. Weights are sometimes used, not for building muscles but for strengthning the hand grip and for resistance training e.g. holding the barbels in a certain position(no pumping) until the muscles start to "burn". But even for the above examples there are substitutes where weights are not used. To conclude, you can build power using different methods and concepts that is, with or without weights - the "external" method or the "internal" - remembering the type of power developed will depend on the training concepts used, that is, external impact power or internal penetrative power. Wing Chun Kuen Man

This secretive okinawan school of karate is supposedly the most violent system where there are no protective equipment used and that the only forbidden blows are to the eyes. They do not publish books or videos and only have few schools outside of Okinawa. This is their site: https://www.okinawakarate.com Make sure you read the very interesting interview with the sensei Valeri Maystrovoy, who is the president of the International Federation of Okinawa Karate in Russia and head instructor for the European region. Real kick-* karate or what? Opinions? Wing Chun Kuen Man

I will have to go with endurance. In my branch of Wing Chun we develope our power from resistance training, ie. minimum muscle mass, which contributes to speed which added with body unity and internal training concepts, creates great penetrative power. The reliance on brute strengh to win fights is regarded as unnecessary. Also, the possession of brute strength does not necessarily mean that the fighter has power in his techniques. Wing Chun Kuen Man

You are correct in saying that shotokan is elaborate for combat training, however in my opinion this matters in the short term, because the more you train the more the elaborate side of this style will become an asset instead of a liability. Eventhough it is a"watered down" style, Shotokan karate still contains numerous fighting techniques that when mastered can be used in effective combat. It just takes quiete bit longer to become effective in this style then lets say Krave Maga or kick boxing. The above is true for many kung fu styles as well, arts that are super effective, but take a longer time to master and in many cases much longer than Shotokan. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Hello, Apparently, the development of TKD was influenced by Shotokan karate. I don´t know the degree of this influence but I am sure someone on this forum can enlighten us. Lets wait and see. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Talking about waits, In the style of Wing Chun that I practice we do not do any weight training, this is to minimize muscle mass build up. We are even carefull with the frequency of press-ups that we practice during a week. However, we do a lot of resistance building exercises which create maximum muscle definition with minimum muscle mass built-up. Less muscle mass for us equals to more speed in punching which combined with body unity contributes to more power. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Well put White Warlock and The Devil Aside. Ripper, sometimes in life we have to depend on our logic which is based on our experiences. As far as I know, there have never been experiments to prove wether or not badmington, tenis,etc, players have martial self confidence because I assume that the answer is evident. The bottom line is that martial arts deal with hitting other human beings to a point where they stop being a physical threat to you or your loved ones, using abilities to possibly maim or kill your adversary. This involves a deeper level of confidence touching on our primitive instincts and fears. Most CAPABLE martial artists will have martial selfconfidence or spirit, which is directly related to their martial arts practice. Where as most capable tenis and badmington etc. players will have fighting spirit of a different kind on the playing field/court etc. Even in general life, these sports men/women may carry themselves confidently because of their achievements in their chosen sport. But, the bottom line for them is the fact that they can defeat a lot of people lets say in badmington, whereas a martial artist´s confidence is based on the fact that they can fight their way out a life threatenning situation if they need to. VERY DIFFERENT. I would describe martial confidence as "deep", it reflects in the body language, there is a different feel, the eyes are different and so on. If you cross paths with warrior or a sportsman you will definitely feel the difference in the vibes that they give out. Anyway, I hope that I made my point clearer. Until later, Wing Chun Kuen Man

You may also get 30 year old 10th dan grand masters, "serving the fries" in some McDojos.......LOL. Beware of the lack of martial essence and possible sub-standard martial arts tuition at some of these establishments. Wing Chun Kuen

Ripper, One of the ways that Karate (if not all martial arts) change us is in the way they increase our selfconfidence. All human beings have an inbuilt instinct for survival and that includes survival against violence which has always been part of our history. This instinct may manifest itself in either running or fighting when faced with danger. The more trained a person is in the martial arts the more likely he or she is to survive a violent confrontation. In many cases martial arts practice brings us face to face with our own fears relating to violence and handling of it as such. This is different from other sports. The acquisition of martial/fighting abilities and SPIRIT that improve their odds of survival, gives many martial artists a type of self confidence that one does not get playing badmington, tennis etc. That is a fact. This a major factor in personal improvement that is only achieved in MA training. And yes gaining this kind of confidence will help people in other areas of their lives. Martial fighting spirit is not only for fist fights, it is for life. Many people practicing martial arts increase their general assertivenes because of this self confidence. For some their increased martial ability results in them "cooling down" and eliminating the need to prove themselves by violent acts. "Martial" selfconfidence combined with self dicipline and fitness, makes us better people in a different way than that of other non martial sports. Wing Chun Kuen Man

To answer your question: Yes, anyone can become good in karate if they attend on regular basis and try hard. That is the SECRET. They have to keep attending and trying hard always. It is important to never giveup and always attend the training sessions. If you train like this, improvements will come relatively quickly you may not notice them all the time, but others in the dojo will, primarily your sensei, if he is good. Take it one step at the time - you will be improving slower than some and faster than other members - don´t hurry at it and don´t think about winning competitions or titles, they are irrelevant, focus on improving your karate. Once you are good then you can decide wether you want to run around and chase titles and trophies. However, these should not be the motivating points for your training or you will miss the point of what karate is all about. I don´t know much about Uchi-Ryu, other than then it is a traditional Okinawan style and that they use open hand strikes as opposed to fists-correct me if I am wrong. Generally speaking Okinawan karate styles are a good place to start if you want to learn real and unadulterated karate. Is the Goju-Ryu that you practice Okinawan or Japanese? I know for a fact that the Okinawan Goju is a great style(the same is probably true of the Japanese variety, if it is not watered down). One of the most important factors other than yourself is wether your sensei is good or not. That, you will know sooner or later. If he is good, then he will know his karate and will be able to pass his knowledge. He will help you and will be there for you whenever you need him. If he is good then all you have to do is work hard, don´t give up and let karate help you become a stronger person and increase your self confidence. Good Luck, Wing Chun Kuen Man

BolbOn, Good post. I am with you. If they use the all style contineous sparring method and incorporate TKD into it they will bo doubt attract a bigger audience, as well. They may use contact (with protective equipment - if they are worried about the safety) as they do with Taekwondo. They can call it "Karate and all Tradititional Striking arts" (too long?) or "Karate all Styles", or something like that. I still have my worries about karate becoming an olympic sport, but if it is going to happen, then I hope that it is done in the best way possible. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Hello (Hola?) Yireses, Here are some titles that you may find interesting: 1. Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na. 2. Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na, (instructor´s manuel....). 3. Shaolin Chin Na, the seizing art of kung fu. 4. Practical Chin Na. You will find the above books and some other titles in the following web site: https://www.wle.com/store/b_chinna.html Good Luck Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, Sup Yee Sik is the 12 positions form (in our school anyway). Sup Jee Sao is the first segment of the Siu Nim tao form. Too many forms and too many spellings.....lol. Stances. I have seen the wider stances too. In my style however, we open twice as well. Here is something that you will find interesting. Do a search on the internet for Wing Choon (yes correct spelling). I believe that you will come across some interesting material and some facinating info on real kung fu in general. Until next time, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, Glad that you found the info useful. Sup Jee Sao is the cross shaped hand movement that we use in the beginning of the Siu Nim Tao. What do you use in your school, is it a triple fist combination by any chance? I think that our stances are mostly similar to that of Hong Kong schools. However, in one of my earlier posts on this thread I did mention wider shaolin type stances that exist in another mainland chinese branch of Wing Chun, which according to my sifu is probably a family style. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Hello, I understand your first point. Competition does definitley give you a different perspective and can be considered as an extension of your training, physical and more importantly mental where as you said, you are involved with people outside of your usual comfort zone. However, in many traditional schools it is not considered as a desirable thing, that is just a fact and it works for them. The mental training in traditional kung fu is approached in a very different manner. Also, you may be in the minority when it comes to the lack of importance that you give to your trophies, and that is something to be admired. As far as the way we practice, it is the way it is in our clan, it works for us just the way your way works for you. I suppose there are no absolute truths and there are we will come to find out by ourselves in the future. Belt system. This is just a traditional kung fu thing. Some systems may have adopted the japanese style belt systems but many haven´t. I personally don´t have anything against it. As long as it is not used improperly. Obviously, those who regularly train in our school know who is who in the school without the benefit of the colored belts. Challenges. They do happen today much more than many people think. You don´t just hear about it that much. The kind of kung fu mentality that considers competitions irrelevant where trophies and medals are things more related to vanity and not martial arts, is hardly likely to be boasting about the number of challenges won. The loosers of the challenges do not usually advertise the fact either. From what I know, these are usually low key events, where some papers are signed and each side has a witness or two and the comfrontation may take place in either side`s school or on neutral ground. The main points above refer to challenges made between kung fu schools. I am sure that if a non-chinese style is involved in a challenge with a kung fu school and if they win then there will be more publicity because this kind of publicity nowaday will mean $$$$$$ for the winner`s school. So why don´t we hear about them? Could it be that potential challengers don´t know that many kung fu schools will fight if challenged (maybe some wouldn´t but many will). Your guess is as good as mine. In the 1990´s when my sifu was based in france and was an istructor in his master´s school, there would on occassions be approached by challengers from other kung fu schools as well as kick boxers, karate men etc. Now, we are talking about a very low profile school in the master´s own house without any neon signs or anything. Here in brazil, my sifu has accepted challenges from other Wing Chun schools - full contact, no gloves and very ugly. If there are any people who have doubts about kung fu (or any martial art) that they don´t find in normal competition then if they have what it takes can go and challenge whomever they want. They don´t have to do it and it is not a necessary part of training in martial arts but if they are going to bad mouth any fighting system/art they might as well put their money where their mouth is and find out for themselves. What is called shuffling as well as thousands of other techniques that exist in other martial arts- and many that don´t - exist in the hundreds of styles of kung fu that exist today. However, I will say again when you see a kung fu competitor boucing around on his toes (without a base), something that we see a lot in sport martial arts nowadays, then beware, because that is not real kung fu. Until next time, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, I have got it at last, here is some quick info on the lineage of Wing Chun that I practice. My sifu´s name is Andria Pivcevic, chinese name Liang Shen long. He is a closed door disciple of grand master Leung kit Chow, of mainland China, who in turn studied Wing Chun under Sum Nung (who was a disciple of Yuen Kay San) and Losiu Wan, of Fung Siu Ching lineage. Losiu Wan was Leung Kit Chow´s main Wing Chun master. Also, Leung Kit Chow is a grand master in various shaolin styles of kung fu. I hope the info was usefull, Until next time, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Hello, The fact of the matter is that real kung fu experts rarely compete. I can take my own trainning as reference where the sifu is teaching in a traditional manner and has made it clear to everyone in his class that competition is irrelevant to what they are learning. I can see his point. These arts were never meant to be used to win trophies, not in their original and traditional form anyway. When I am practicing for example all my strikes are aimed at vital areas and all the strikes coming in are aimed at my vital areas, if they get through they make light and sometimes painful contact. The aim in everyday trainning is to destroy (not necessarilly kill) the opponent as quickly as possible. This is the mindset in every practise session. There are no gradings either, when my sifu believes that someone has achieved a certain level he will upgrade his trainning. We have no belt system either. All students wear black sashes while sifu wears his golden one. As you said masters back in the day had challenge matches. This continues on today and I believe the only way you are going to see most kung fu experts fight is through this type of challenges. There are no fees to be paid and no qualifying matches, that means even people from this forum who bad mouth kung fu (you´ve read their posts too), can make challenges, but will they ever? Will any of them have the guts to go to a real chinese kung fu master´s school or a visiting masters seminar and look him in the eyes and challenge him or any of his top disciples. Or will they prefer to go to John Smiths Dimmak Kung Fu McDojo and challenge and bit up Mr Smith and say afterwards that they destroyed a kung fu/dimmak master in a challenge match thus "proving" that kung fu does not work and that it is only a dance. [by the way, most salsa dancers that I know will put up a better fight then a Mcdojo master...lol]. Actually most official challenges are made in written form as well as oral form, and it is all done very respectfully. And about the bouncing around thing by that I was referring to shuffling as well. It may be part of Muay Thai and Boxing technique and may combine and compliment the strategies and principles of these arts, but it is not part of traditional kung fu. That kind of footwork cannot be combined with correct kung fu hand/foot technique where the practitioner needs a stronger/deeper base. At worst you will see some kung fu "fighters" really bouncing around in a way not only alien to kung fu but also probably to Thai boxing as well. Were it not for the uniforms it would even be difficult to identify them as kung fu men. Until next time, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Slider33, I am glad that you found the thread usefull, I wish you luck in your Wing Chun journey. I hope that you find a good school and when you do the rest is up to you. All you need is patience and hard work and dedication. Good Luck, Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, It was a rewarding experience discussing kung fu with you....later on I will have info about my lineage. Until later. Wing Chun Quen Man

Hello, It is my impression that we agree on a quiete a few points. Just quickly, most kung fu systems if not all have some internal aspects to them even styles that look overtly external such as the tiger claw family of styles - as far as I know this fact is not widely known. The difference generally is in the level the internal energy developed and the way it is delivered . Hence, the higher the level of the style, the more internal energy it uses. Of course there are the styles that are known as internal such as bagua, xingyi(hsing I) and taiji as you correctly mentioned. The Dragon, Snake and the Crane styles are internal as well. The example I gave of the punch to the chest is not really a dimmak technique. Contact has to be made to the general area of the chest, inspite of there being various potentially lethal vital spots in that area. The main factor there is the energy given during the strike. The finger strikes in the Snake style would lose probably 95% of their effectiveness without the use of internal energy. I know that it is difficult to comprehend for someone who is not involved in this type of martial arts...it took me a while as well. Dimmak does exist. It can be either instant or delayed. In most cases it would be used as a last resort technique (the instant dimmak), because any kung fu expert who has achieved these techniques would also know many other less lethal tools to dispose of an opponent or even opponents. The delayed dimmak raises serious issues as it is not a technique to be uses in a fight if you are loosing, because it will not change the outcome, making it by nature a more practical technique to use against somebody who is unaware of it, and here we are talking about premeditated murder. I laugh whenever western "masters" advertise dimmak classes, because what they could be saying is that come and learn how to murder someone without living any clues behind. Thankfully here we are talking about kuakes (I hope it is the right spelling). Many chinese masters will not admit to having such skills even when they do have them and sometimes they will even tell you that they don´t know wether dimmak exists. About the head shots - you are right again. However, as I said before there are vital spots on the human face (also head) and these would have to be hit with precision and again with energy (not only impact). To my knowledge ring or tournament fighters do not train this kind of fighting (thank god) and such concepts would be alien to them. Accidents do happen, but as you implied, not that often. A few years ago here in Brazil in the city of São Paolo, a young lower rank karate fighter (I think he was Shotokan) was killed in a semi contact competion when he was accidently punched in the head. In my opinion the main inpracticality regarding Kung Fu is the complexity of its trainning and the time span involved in gainning the high level skills, which you also touched upon. This is the major factor that will put off potential practitioners specially in our western societies. Another factor that I pointed out before, is that there are not many schools that have the capacity or knowledge to teach real kung fu and few that exist will not just teach anyone. The result is that the general public gets exposed to a lot of "masters", "fighters" etc. who are not real kung fu men. And unfortunately when any of these fakes are exposed for what they are or get knocked out by someone from another style people say "hey look kung fu does not work it is all dance". This I find very sad. Most real kung fu people that I know will never enter tournaments, but of course there some who do. As a rule of thumb, if you go to a match and see a "kung fu fighter" bouncing around on his toes on the mat then you can consider him a non kung fu fighter because bouncing around on the toes does not exist in real traditional kung fu (nor in real traditional karate, so I am told). Here in Rio, in the cradle of BJJ I have been lucky to have found real kung fu and even my sifu can only name me about 3 other genuine sifus whom he knows personally and another 2 whom he wants to meet but cannot locate them because they keep such low profiles. I still maintain that if one wants to learn self defense in a relatively short time then they are better off with a lot of the other martial arts such as bjj, thai boxing, krav maga, etc. I personally have made my choice and for me at least the next few years it is going to be Wing Chun punching, Wing Chun kicking, Wing Chun elbows, Wing Chun finger strikes, Wing Chun grappling and Wing Chun weapons, as you probably know, it is a complete martial art. Then I will begin another kung fu style. Until next time, Wing Chun Kuen Man