wing chun kuen man

aefibird, Stick fighting art from the Canary Islands. For a minute that conjured up images of the spanish police bitting up drunk tourists/hooligans with battons. But seriously do you have the name of this art? I have never heard about it before. By the way did any one mention the Brazilian fighting art the Capoeira. Wing Chun Kuen Man

muaythaifreak, Could it be that the Thais are more open nowadays about loosing to foreigners then they were when Mas Oyama had his victory? Because, if they were secretive then, maybe they did not keep records of Mas. Oyamas encounter and maybe people forgot about it in time. I don´t know, I am just asking about your opinion. Also, remember that there were other kyokushin fighters who had successes in Thailand. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Vito, Thanks for the warning. But I would like to think that my training is balanced and therefore we don´t bare knuckle the bag "consistantly" , I just sometimes bareknuckle the wooden dummy, but not all the time of course. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, My last post was for White Warlock, not for you and he is condescending too in his posts and turned mole hill (a few statements) into an "intellectual" mountain (encyclopedia Britannica). But don´t tell him that I said that he might get upset and bit me up with his big brain, and as you know I am not yet in the weapons stage of my Wing Chun training. Seriously though, I am open minded and I am here to learn and discuss facts. Today I asked my sifu about the other jows that you mentioned and he said that there are many for differente ailments. However, he stressed that what we use is dit dai jow and its purpose which I have mentioned before. Any way this post is for you just to clear up any misunderstanding. I know that many masters in the old came from rich families and many that didn´t, but you say most did. Can you substantiate that? That White Warlock has got me doing it too now. Nevermind. My point is that during times of war and turmoil which are part of China´s history, it is not easy to fullfil longterm commitments such as traditional MA studies as well as the other 4 excellences. As you probably know the rich are not immune from war and social turbulance either - eventhough they are usually better protected that is unless they are the object of the turmoil in the first place. But that is all I was saying, I am sure many did learn the 5 excellences and that many didn´t. That is all. I have been lead to believe that in the shaolin temples the healing arts were part of the monks´curriculum as a part of the five excellences. I have also read about some monks who would leave the temples and enter the outside world practicing medicine as healers (not brain surgeons) in villages and towns. I will go back and look into it again however. Preventative medicines do exist in Chinese medicine. I don´t know wether they are common or not, but I can name you at least 2. One as I have mentioned before,which started this damn argument is the dit dai jow that we use in our training which treats local bruising and prevents long term problems associated with conditioning exercises. You may call it by another name but we call it dit dai jow. The fact is that it is a linamente and it is used for the above purpose. If manage to get the Morio Higaonna video you will see that it is used to prevent long term damage from makiwara training. He also drinks another herbal mix to prevent internal organ damage. It is an interesting video if you are into hand and foot conditioning. The other preventative medicine is Chi Kung (health exercise)practice. Although it is used to cure sickness as well, its main purpose as far as health is concerned is prevention. This is according to my readings. Obviously there is a martial side to chi kung (oops! can of worms), but that is not the point here. You are right to say that MA practise was not common in temples in the old days. I did not say they were, but there were temples other than the Shaolin and Wudang where Kung Fu was practised. And this is true even today. Infact, my sifu will be travelling to China in a couple of years to further his kung fu studies and will be staying in a temple for 2 years. All this will be "arranged" for him by his Grand Master who now resides in China, and guess what, the temple he will be staying in is not a Shaolin temple. Yes, many kung fu "techniques have been passed down from generation to generation". You said this line says a lot. If you mean that many of the old techniques do not work and as a result this devalues the dit dai jow knowledge , then I say that you are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that most if not of the old techniques do work if trained right (I am not talking about competition wu shu btw), problem being the time span involved in mastering them and the lack of good sifus. However, I am sorry if you meant something else. Wing Chun Kuen Man PS. I am open minded, but at the same time I have my opinions, strong as they may be, bases on what I am taught and my own research. I don´t mean to be a know it all, I am just defending my point of view.

Thank you KF Sensei, White Warlock, please re-read my previous posts a few times maybe you will eventually understand what I am saying. As I said before, I don´t have time to sit here and argue for the sake of argument. This is turning up to be a contest on WHO ARGUES BETTER and not who knows more or who has what opinion. Let me make it easy, the facts (yet again): 1) The dit dai jow that WE use in our traditional Wing Chun training is for short term injuries/sourness etc. and for long term prevention of ailments associated with conditioning exercises. If you don´t believe that such a linamente exists then don´t . If you are curious then go to point number 2. 2)Morio Higaonna and his video. As I stated before I believe that this will settle the key issue in our discussion. I don´t have a link for him but as great mind like you will know there is something called an internet google search or a general search. Try it out. Anyway if you want to see the video then here is the full name: "Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate-Do Makiwara Training starring Morio Higaonna" it is a Panther Productions release. If he uses such linaments then believe me so do many others at his level of knowledge and below. 3) I never said "you must believe" anything. Or have "faith" in something. Don´t bring religious conotations into the discussion. What I am saying is that I believe in the way certain things are based on my own knowledge and experience (and who knows one they I may "unlearn what I have learned). I believe and it works for me, period. And, yet again I will say to you: YOU BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT ,you are a free man. What I have said above finishes our real argument/discussion. The RELEVANT facts and opinions are all there. Now a few quick points. We go through life acquiring knowledge. This happens through personal contact, college/university, radio, television, movies. Then we try and remember what we have learnt and make some sense of it , and that is hard enough without remembering the sources for everything we have read or heard. For you White Warlock to ask me to remember who the hell the people interviewed in a 1980´s tv documentary is just too much. I am lucky that I even remembered the inteviews, and only because the subject matter had interested me. Again if you don´t believe it, good for you. My reasoning may be fallacious to you again that may have to do more with your perception of things than with my reasoning. Who knows maybe it is a cultural thing, ie one man´s logic from one culture is another man´s logic from another culture. When I travelled to the Far East for the first time I found some of the things they did and the reasons they did it strange, unjustified and unnecessary, superstisious etc. (I smelled "fallacious reasoning" somewhere), I did keep an open mind. The 3rd time I went there I did not find some of those behaviors so strange. May be you should travel more, or if you do travel a lot maybe you should try "see" more. Fluoride. Ok lets discuss science,"bud". What you are saying is that, based on a flawed military test, which involved the participation of scientists,unqualified as they may have been, hundreds and thousands if not millions, of people are drinking harmfull fluoride contaminated water for the best part of 50 years. Whatever happenned to all the testing a medical research that you mentioned which is supposed to erase any doubts of health risks regarding any medical products. I am talking about today not then. Or do the scientists also trust the mumbo jumbo of medicine passed down from generation to generation.....LOL. I know that fluoride is harmfull and you obviously know that too. Why isn´t any one doing anything about it. Nowadays, I see fluoride added to mineral water and even to chewing gum. So what is happening. Why aren´t there any tests being carried out by the scientists. All this may prove that "Great Minds" are like cops, there are none around when you need them, or maybe they are in on the scam, who knows? Other research also suggests that fluoride is also an intelligence suppressant, which right now I cannot substanciate, but if true will explain why governments are sitting on their butts turning a blind eye. If you are interested feel free to investigate. Also try to make a web search on a Dr Hardy Limeback, Head of the Department of Preventive Dentistry for the University of Toronto, very interesting. Now that guy could be a "great mind". By the way, your claims of knowledge regarding medicine and herbs are to me unsubstantiated. You have not shown me any proof that you know anything about medicine and I believe that the story of your sig with thyroid cancer is an invention because you haven´t even proven to me that your sig even exists. By the way, I have not seen substantial proof of wether people in this forum practice the MAs that they say they practice and if their rank is really what they say it is. SEE HOW EASY it is to doubt and create unecessary argument. We are in a Forum for gods sake. Some times you just have to take someones word for it especially if it is a personal opinion based on experience and personal perception. Again, I am not saying believe what I am saying but maybe just maybe believe that I am sincere in what I say and accept the fact that maybe just maybe there are concepts that other people( not necessarilly me) may know and practice that are alien to you and it is not alway easy to justify these concepts thru a forum, to someone who has no understanding of them or who has a different perception of things. Having said that I think you probably do know a fair bit about medicine and herbs and yes to story of sig also sounds like its true. One more quick point. Chinese history has had its share of turmoils, famin etc. Knowing this fact will no doubt make it easy for one to understand the fact that some people were too busy surviving- fight wars, finding food, working , hiding etc. - for them to have had time to master the five excellences. My closing statement was not only aimed at closed minded scientists but also those who use them as a reference and an "intellectual" base for their own inflexibility. Anyway, I think I have written enough. I have put in the few relevant facts and participated in an what is mostly an irrelevant argument for a forum and for what was my original point and just in case you missed it : IN MY TRADITIONAL KUNG FU SCHOOL we use herbal linaments to treat the side effects of conditioning and to prevent long term damage. Also, these kind of linaments are used by other martial artists. Checkout the Higaonna video. It may help your "growth and learning" in the area of hand and foot conditioning. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Dijita, Eventhough I don´t practice Kyokusinkai karate I have great respect and admiration for it and of course for Mas. Oyama. I find what is happening with this style very sad as well. I do believe that kyokushinkai is still very much alive an well and respected, however I think the organization needs a leader with real charisma and fighting prowess to back it up. I hope whoever that person may be shows up soon. Wing Chun Kuen Man

JerryLove, Thank you for answering my question about the meditation exercises. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Druken Monkey, You would not believe it if I told you. Wing Chun Kuen Man

White Warlock, First of all the people in this forum seem to be obsessed with magic and mystical things. I did not say anything about these linaments being magic or mystical. You are the one that introduced this interesting and somewhat out of place concept. I was just talking about medicine. The first point. If you did not know, there are bogus dit dai jows and there are real ones. This a fact and I am not trying to win arguments with you. I don´t know you and you agreeing and disagreeing with me does not play any role in my life. Just because things are passed down from generation to generation does not make them necessarily wrong either. If you really do practice kung fu and if it is a real kung fu then you should know that many of the techniques that you are studying have been passed down from generation to generation as well. What you say about merchants "creating needs" for their products, herbal remedies in this case, is happenning all over the world with what we call modern medicine. Some of which work and some that don´t and even others that create more problems then benefits, including addiction, and boy does that create need. However, when we do need them we do our best to find something that works for us. I still believe that, what you are actually saying is that generation after generation of kung fu masters were idiots to use herbal linaments. Don´t you think that even if they were idiots they would eventually wake up after suffering generation after generation of crippling side effects??? Now who is trying to win an argument? Yes there were and are traditional kung fu practitioners who were and are trained in the five excelences. Do your research. It may not be common nowadays and but nor is a real blackbelt holder who has really earned his belt, or so it seems. I would say that in the old days many practitioners did not have the time to learn the 5 excellences as they were too busy trying to survive and stay alive. However many did, especially those studying at various temples (not necessarilly Shaolin either). The monks had a reputation as healers, however I don´t think even they dared walk under ladders, but they did throw a pinch of salt in their food once in a while. About my health problems, well that is my business. Well if I knew what the medicine was I would not have needed to go to the chinese herbalist in the first place, I would have prepared it myself. The problem with you is you automatically disbelieve because these concepts are not in your belief system and that is fine. Had I told you that my local doctor cured some medical problems you would not think twice. I mention chinese medicine that has existed for thousands of years and is used by millions of people in the Far East as well as in the west and you jump out of your pants. If you don´t think that chinese medicine works, then good for for you...just don´t tell me about it. My friend´s health problem. I mentioned what it was. He was complaining from those pains for the best part of 1 and a half years. His doctor had given him a lot of pills for months they did not work. I suggested to him to try out a chinese herbal center that had a good reputation. The rest you know. I don´t remember what the exact problem was all I know that it had to do with his digestive system. Had he been cured with a couple doses of pills, you would not be such a pain in the b%$#. But because we are talking about something that you don´t believe in you automatically assume that the results were achieved because of other factors. But again you are free to believe whatever you wish. But I don´t want to know. About acupuncture. I saw a couple of interviews in the 1980´s, or were they in the early 1990´s with some respected scientists/doctors who said that "there is no proof that acupuncture works" or something to that effect and also somethings about it all being in the mind,etc.(Could they have been relatives of yours by any chance). If I remember correctly somebody even warned about its dangers. Don´t ask me their names or their qualifications or if they played with themselves when they were young or if they had animal fantasies. I don´t know. It was a long time ago. Now were they "great minds"? Probably not. However, they were probably diciples of the "great minds" that control the scientific community. I am sorry but that is how science works (my view). If the big fish of the period thought that acupuncture worked then the small fish would agree with them and sing the party line, thus keeping their reputations and jobs intact. At the time they did not because it was not "the accepted view". That is "great minds" for you. Anyway I do not want to discuss science in a martial arts forum. We ARE here to give our views and that was MINE. Feel free to disagree but please don´t tell me about it. Fluoride. The reason that the fluoride got into our toothpastes and in some cases in the water system in the first place is that out scientific community or various of its members declared it safe and beneficial (I am sure a "great mind" was involved there somewhere). Do your research. Morio Higaonna. This is the most relevant part of my post as the rest was irrelevante thanks to your provokation. Get your hands on his video on makiwara training see what he says about prevention of problems from conditioning exercises. Do your research. You may even choose not to believe him after all some clever Mexican farmer who lives in China may have sold him the magic potion. But again don´t tell me about it. If I spend any more time answering irrelevant and * posts I may end up missing my training sessions and my martial arts skills would suffer. You wouldn´t want that to happen to a fellow martial artist now would you? I have wasted enough time on this post. Maybe you have time to wast but I don´t. Finally (thank god), the scientific world . I am not anti-science, I appreciate its role in human progress but I do see its shortcomings and limitations. Thus I am not misrepresenting anything and I am not misinformed. I stated MY VIEW regarding the aspect of closemindedness. And my basis? The by-products of the closedmidedness: People like YOU. Thank you. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Wow. Mas. Oyama´s only defeat as a karate-kai was at the hands of an old Taiji master in Hong Kong , and this was I suppose at his fighting peak, just after he had defeated the Muay Thai champion "the Black Cobra". That is one for the "experts" who believe that internal MA´s don´t work. Oyama ended up studying with the Taiji master and incorporated some of the art´s aspects into Kyokushinkai. Interesting website indeed. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Hey, it was just an idea....lol and I do see your point. The real fact is somehow something has to be done, because the way things are going we are in danger of having martial arts having the same level of credibility as a circus sideshow. Lets hope the MA community manages to come up with a solution. Wing Chun Kuen Man

This site has some really interesting material. I have been going through it all last week. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Maybe some dojos should be more picky on whom they accept as students. Wing Chun Kuen Man

I think that we belong to 2 differente schools of thought when it comes to chi, i.e. your knowledge and perception of what it is, is different to mine and so is what you are taught regarding this "phenomenom". This means there is no point arguing, may we all stay happy in our own realities. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Drunken Monkey, My sifu does not have certificates but has already helped me (and many other students) with injuries more times that I can remember. For many traditional kung fu sifus and masters this kind of knowledge is part of the territory. I also know that many other masters have oficial certificates and practice healing as a career as well. No problem. "...centuries old idea of how 'good' something is, isn´t always necessarily true" Yes you are right , but it isn´t always necessarily false either and that is where personal experience/knowledge comes in. You may have a point in your last statement, however the formula of dit dai jow that we use is both for treating short term injuries and for long term protection. So, our discussion may be a question of definitions and not wether something works or no. I have seen your description of dit dai jow on products being sold commercially. These products I have never bought or used before. I have managed to always get my hands on linaments made by kung fu sifus and in one case a chinese herbalist here in Rio. Nowadays, my sifu provides dit dai jows free of charge for all students during iron palm training or whenever needed. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Please re-read my post. Also, maybe I did not make it clear. We use dit dai jow for conditioning and to prevent long term damage. However, if any of us are hurt or bruised during the training we still use it as a short term remedy. About the masters who don´t have medical degrees from harvard or whatever, and the doubts that you have with their knowledge, please feel free to take it up with them personally. I just stated the fact that many use such linaments for conditoning purposes and to prevent long term injury. I even named one of them, Morio Higaonna (karate), I think you can find his email somewhere in the net. Many kung fu diciples and masters even today are taught the healing arts. You would be right to say that this is not very common. Also, if aspirine helps with your headaches, do you need a diploma to recommend it to someone else? Wing Chun Kuen Man

When you say not all of them have found to be bogus. Then you are talking about good dit dai jow right? Also one point I have to make and that is if a lot of this knowledge was handed down then it is logical to assume that the reason for this was that they worked unless of course you are saying that generation after generation of kung fu masters and their diciples were complete idiots. I just can´t imagine the scene where one crippled kung fu master that has lost the use of his hands and fingers recommending useless dit dai jow to the next generation of his diciples. By the way traditionally the learning and mastering kung fu involved learning the 5 excellences that included medicine. By the way, traditional chinese medicine has throughout the years helped me with various health problems. A friend of mine was cured of very bad stomack and digestive pain that he had suffered for one and a half years. For over a year he was given pills and more pills that did not work for his problem. After he started taking chinese medicine his problem disappeared in around 2 weeks. And lets say he was taking his medicine "with a pinch of salt". I remember that he had not even finished his course of herbal medicine. Some of the greatest scientific minds in the world would have you believe that accupuncture does not work, or have they changed their minds nowadays. Some of these "great minds" don´t think that the artificial sweetner aspartame, and fluoride products are harmfull substances where other research has shown that they are intelligence suppressants. One of the advocates of dit dai jow is the Goju-Ryu 9th dan master, who conditions his hands in the traditional okinawan way (ouch!). He apparently does not use the okinawan variety. He gets his sent to him from China by kung fu master friend of his. Will someone please go and tell him (to his face) that he is an idiot and that this product does not work and that he has been wrong to use it for the past 50 years and that if he is in doubt he should ask any of our western great minds and we do seem to have too many nowadays......lol. They can tell him that the fact that after so many years of strong hand conditioning he has no medical complaints then he is wrong and it is all in his mind, and that he is actually a cripple. Maybe I am being a little silly and I am sorry if I am going over the top but I would like to make my final point and that is that western science and the great minds that belong to it refuse to acknowledge things that they do not see in their "logical scientific world" or in their "logical" theories. I.e. if they don´t understand it, then it does not exist. I am not antiscience or anything like that. I am just lets say anti-closedmind science. Anyway, I have drifted. Like you said some herbal remedies work and some don´t . So if we are conditioning our hands lets try and find the ones that work. That is fair, right? Wing Chun Kuen Man

Just like to say one thing. There is good chinese medicine and bad chinese medicine, just like there is good western medicine and bad western medicine. Consequently there is good dit dai jow and bad dit dai jow. Again if you don´t think that good liniments exist it is your right and good for you. There are masters today that have used and still use dit dai jow to protect themselves. Maybe you know more then these experts, who knows anything is possible. Maybe someone should tell them that what they have been using for the past 30 years is only alcohol with useless herbs. Or could be or just maybe you are WRONG and these masters are right. Everyone in our School uses dit dai jow when training iron palm. It is provided for free. Wing Chun Kuen Man

If you use REAL dit dai jow then its main affect will be to help in the healing of your bruises and to prevent long term damage from conditioning exercises. I hope that this time I made my point clearer. Vito, prevention is better than cure. Some of the old masters may or may not have used heavy bags but many used to punch trees and solid rocks to condition with bare knuckles to condition them. In many cases they used herbal linaments and internally taken remedies to minimize and prevent long term damage. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Maybe we could use the regulations to maintain high standards in the MAs, for example setting up standards for Black Belt exams, so that earning a black belt would go back to have a meaning. Wing Chun Kuen Man

First of all I am not calling chi mysterious, mystical or magical, you guys are. Now, I do agree that with the right kind of exercises you can get some tingling sensations in a short time but to do non contact healing with chi after a weekend course sounds much more like magic to me or maybe it is a Mcmagic dojo seminar that you are talking about....LOL. Do you also get a black belt if you pay in advance? I have had bad headache all day today so why don´t you remotely cure me, that is if Brazil is within your range of non contact abilities or do you need to wear a special antenna hat that everyone gets for free when they participate in the seminar. Gaining the ability to do bonemarrow washing exercises within minutes is incredible and can have infinite possibilities in the laundry house, imagine how fast one can wash ones underwear. SEE how EASY it is to criticize and poke fun and be a smart *... some of the claims you have made could be taken as an insult to a classical/traditional martial artist´s intelligence-however I will keep an open mind. Many traditional masters claim the ability to cure ailments without making contact and sometimes through long distance. I personally have not experienced or seen the long range type of healing - but I am not about to call it mambo jambo either. Throughout my life I have learnt,sometimes through my martial arts training and sometimes in the "outside" world that many things that I thought were impossible were not so impossible and quite a few times had to eat my own words. luckyboxer, what you are describing are abilities gained through external training methods which can also manifest themselves through internal exercises. Don´t discount one because you personally use the other. This is for all of you, if you have no knowledge or a very limited knowledge of something don´t automatically discount it. I am not saying that you should believe it either but keep an open mind....it is more logical in the long run. My reference for what I say is my own training and sifu. I these concepts are alien to you then fare enough. Learning bone marrow washing exercises in minutes is an alien (if not extremely humorous - but still trying extremely hard to keep an open mind) concept to me. It just proves that not everyone knows everything all of the time and in this forum we may at least learn about the various ways and concepts that exist without necessarily believing in them and without giving out snobbish vibes either. By the way Jerry Love, could it be that what you meant was that you can teach the bone marrow washing meditations within minutes but for them to have an actual effect will still take many months if not years of practice (or repetitions)? Drunken Monkey, I know that chi sometimes has a differente meaning for different people. Here in Rio if you try to explain the chi concept and the breathing and exhalation etc. to an average BJJ practioner he will think that you are talking about blowing your nose. I talked about the meaning it has for me and my school which as you know is a very traditional branch of mainland china wing chun. If you don´t agree with it don´t imply that I don´t know what I am talking about, because first of all I do and second so does my sifu as well as his master. Again, I am not saying that don´t disagree, that is your right . Everyone has opinions based on their own knowledge and reality and a lot of the time it works for them. That is fare. I know this is one of the subjects that we can argue about for the rest of eternity. So lets just stay with our opinions and hopefully with an open mind and who knows the future may hold the answers for all of us. I have already discussed various aspects of chi before in this forum and I don´t want to go through it again so if you don´t believe what I say then don´t, as I said before it is your right. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Agreed with markusan. If katas are anything like their chinese counterparts then at higher levels of training they will help release your chi energy and condition your spirit and body from inside. The practice of kata itself can turn into a type of meditation as well. You can still incorporate independent chi kung training into your training for even more benefits if you have the time. Wing Chun Kuen Man

markusan, At higher levels of kung fu training simple contact is all it takes to cause damage. As far as the chi training goes, there are many ways to get the chi to flow. Some have martial applications and some for example that of yoga do not. It is very difficult to explain it is something that must be experienced. I am heading that way. I already feel the difference in my punching power. The damage I can cause is not solely based on impact alone. However, I have a long, long way to go, because we are really talking about long term training and perhaps that is why this concept is so misunderstood and mistrusted in our modern "fast food" society. Many kung fu masters will tell you that if you train kung fu without the chi kung training that goes with it, then you have missed the point. For many masters the chi is just a natural force rather than a "secret" and "mysterious" energy. These exotic descriptions may have more to do with us westerners poking fun at concepts that we don´t understand then any REAL chinese masters´ describing their arts. Yes it is a controversial area but for many long term practitioners the chi energy is real and has real combat applications, or else this kind of training would not have been included in most if not all kung fu systems for hundreds if not thousands of years. For those who have not experienced the concepts of chi power, this is a fascinating area to investigate , with a lot of patience of course. Wing Chun Kuen Man

karatekid04, Could it be that they mean don´t lift or tense your shoulders when you are punching? If so it is because you will loose the power when punching. Wing Chun Kuen Man

Hey, maybe in japan you can check out some good martial arts schools eg.kyokushinkai, goju-ryu etc. I am sure it will be educational eventhough it will be for a relatively short period of time. Wing Chun Kuen Man