White Warlock

Sounds fun.

Wow, that's some pretty heavy-handed fallacious reasoning you got going on there wckm! I seriously don't believe i've seen that much false logic in one post since... well since i argued religion with a fetus that wanted to marry his twin brother! Humor aside, let me make it clear i'm not attempting to attack you. When someone points out fallacious reasoning, it looks like an attack, but it is not meant to be one. In my case, i'm merely attempting to show that the conclusions you present are based on false assumptions. Nothing malevolent or deviant about it. Anyway, here i go again. You were giving abilities and properties to dit da jow that are unsubstantiated and, frankly, go against anything even remotely biologically possible, at least for a human being. The body does a pretty good job of healing, but it is not perfect and there is always going to be a little bit of scar tissue each and every time you get injured. I understand what your point was, but your point was in response to my point, which was in reference to herbs being attributed to properties they do not possess. Please understand this. You changed my argument, and are continuing to argue your point, which is based on a misrepresentation of what i stated. Agreed. However, reversing my statement does not dismiss my statement. So the purpose of this is to detract from what my statement as intended to communicate. Just to clarify, the 'iron face kung fu' listed to the left is a joke. I.e., mutilate your opponent's fists with your face. Anyway, this is a switch argument. It basically is saying that, "Joe is healthy, therefore John is healthy." Why? Because they're both men? Because their first names start out with the letter J? To clarify, let me present to you something that creates conflict with your present argument. "Jews pass on, from generation to generation, that pork should not be eaten." And so? So what, right? If you look at it, it sounds like there's nothing there, but the original reason why they were directed not to eat pork was because ages ago, people died horribly from eating undercooked pork (trichinosis). Nowadays we know what causes this, and instances of trichinosis are exceedingly rare in industrialized nations. A rule created to protect a group of people from, what was at the time, an unknown evil. And yet, this same rule is continues to be passed on from generation to generation. So, basically, my what i'm saying is... so what? Just because something is passed on from generation to generation doesn't mean it is valid, or valid nowadays. It should not matter whether it is passed on from generation to generation. What should matter is whether you know WHY it is passed on, HOW it works, and IF it works. In this case, many herbal concoctions are passed on because of tradition, and not necessarily because of effectiveness. Moreso, those who prescribe these concoctions, in most cases don't know how these herbs work, either individually, or in conjuction with others. In addition, the IF is a major factor. IF it doesn't work, they try another concoction, the person dies, or that person (as in the case of many occidentals) doesn't come back again. Instead, all you get are the success stories, whose healing may or may not have been attributed to the herbal concoctions. Dude, this is how products are sold on infomercials. Those who vouch for it are put on television. Those who tried and failed... a profit margin statistic. The profits are obtained not from the successes, but from the failures. No, i'm sorry, that is not the case. Saying it so simply does not make it so. Modern medicine is developed through an extensive process of testing. The end result is an incredibly detailed breakdown of the chemical components, the biochemical effects of these 'specific' components on various human (or animal) cells, the effects on certain bacteria, and/or many other 'specific' target testings. Modern medicine isn't a shot in the dark, as herbal medicines have been presented. Now granted, many modern medicines were derived from herbs and plants that have been effective in ancient times, but the specific beneficial chemical components of said herbs have been extracted, allowing for a more precise, and far more effective application. This said, i'm not dismissing herbs altogether. Hmm... so opium, hashish and cocaine... are those medicines? Nope, sorry dude. Good try though. That's nice. Saying i said something doesn't make it so. I never said that, nor did i imply that in any way whatsoever. Therefore, you're trying to paint me as an antagonist, thus making it easier to argue my points, by not arguing them at all... and instead focusing on me... the antagonist. Ad hominem, de facto. Case in point. Umm... you? Again, the switch. I'm not trying to win, just pointing out the false logic you've been presenting in these arguments. Why? Because in applying this false logic, you have neither invalidated, nor validated any of the arguments posed by yourself or anyone else. In short, you're basically saying what you later say in this post. That it is a faith issue. However, it is not. Umm, actually, i don't have to. You're the one that made the assertion, not me. I simply stated you presented it as a means to substantiate your argument and i'm saying that you haven't provided the evidence to claim that they can serve as substantiation of your argument. I know that may not have made much sense, but try and reread it a few times. so it seems. Again, you make the same assertion, yet do not provide evidence to support your assertion. That is actually essential, if you're going to use this assertion to substantiate an argument or stance. Hehe Okay, but did you ask them what it is they provided, or did you just ingest it on 'faith?' And there it is. What i mentioned earlier. You now argue that it is based on faith, on a belief... and that because i don't believe, i must therefore be a heretic (which, btw, is not the case... but it is interesting that you have come to such conclusion based on what little i have provided in argument as to where i stand in all of this). On the contrary. I would ask exactly what i've been asking here. I would ask what it is you were treated with and then i would perform a bit of research to educate myself on the treatments provided. No joke. I do this all the friggin' time, and you would be surprised how much i know about modern medicine AND herbs. In fact, most doctors are. To argue my point, my sig other was recently diagnosed with thyroid cancer. I spent the last week reading over 300 pages worth of information on thyroid cancer and am now reasonably well versed in it. When i met the post op doctor, we had an indepth discussion on the various post operative concerns and i was able to alleviate many of the concerns my sig other had. And here is where you assume i said Chinese medicine doesn't work. I did not say that. I said many HERBS, used here in the the western world and in the Eastern world, are attributed effects that they do not provide or possess. With your above comment, you are again putting words in my mouth, since attacking what i didn't say is far easier than attacking what i did say. Just to make it clear, one reason i'm being a pain in the ..., is because i'm am having an issue with your frequent use of fallacious reasoning (otherwise known as false logic). Fallacious reasoning isn't an issue of right or wrong, but an issue of coming to a conclusion through illogical means. You could very well be stating something is right, but the means by which you obtain this statement... is not. "I am rich, therefore i am caucasian." Now, i may be rich and i may be caucasian, but one does not equate to the other. Do you understand what i'm getting at? Another reason i'm being a pain in the ..., is because i want you to substantiate your arguments. Some of them sound interesting, but you're not providing anything other than, "you must believe" as substantiation. Faith shouldn't be a prerequisite to postulating a reasonable argument and if you're going to make a claim, such as, "melatonin invigorates the pancreas," i would definitely like to see some evidence to support this claim. And again... and again, this belief thing. We talked about it already, so i'm not going to torture you with the same discussion i posed above. Well, you aren't providing anything to work with here, so we're still dealing with unsubstantiated claims. You haven't provided insight into these 'so-called' respected scientists/doctors. I could easily argue, without providing evidence in support, that i've witnessed a multitude of reports and videos of neurologists indicating that there is indeed an effect with acupuncture. Are you going to take my word for it? And, if not, then why should i take your word for the opposite claim? Anyway, we're not talking about acupuncture. This was your tangent, not mine. The ongoing discussion was about herbs. Specifically, at least when i stepped in, it was about dit da jow. An associative ad hominem inference. The truth of the matter is, we'll never know... because you never provided evidence of their existence. Well then, why bring it up? I could make the same exact argument that i've seen grand and super scientists stating everyone should get needles stuck into their skulls. Do i have to support this? Not if i don't care whether anyone believes me or not. And, if i don't care... then why post in the first place? Exactly. Because such a tactic is used to try to substantiate your claim, by presenting 'professionals' that cannot be disputed, simply because they have not been produced. I.e., a means to 'win' an argument, as opposed to reaching for the truth. Or the facts, if that's your bag. I'm glad you added "(my view)." You're entitled to your opinion. But, please, do realize that everyone has an opinion, just as they have ... those things they sit on. Also realize that there is a huge difference between that of an opinion, and that of an informed opinion. In some circles, such things do exist, but to assume that all men and women behave in this manner, merely because they work in the scientific community, is grossly unfair. But, again, you're entitled to your ... opinion. Ahh, i see. So you're basically saying you just want to say what you believe and then walk off? Not interested in learning or teaching others? Just want to pose your opinion? Okay... have fun. Sorry to say bud, i did do my research. In the 1940s, a test was conducted for the U.S. Army, on a community in Ohio. It was determined through the test that flouride, added in small quantities to the drinking water, whitened yellow teeth. It was this "military-sponsored" test that started it all. However, the test was not conducted by qualified researchers. In addition, the test subjects were too few, the test area contaminated, and the testing period too short. By all 'standard' testing procedures of the time, and now, the report should have been tossed before it hit the table. But, you know what they say about military contracts, eh? In truth, large quantities of flouride actually causes yellowing of the teeth, as well as brittling of the bones. What caused the teeth of the test cases to turn from yellow to white, was their 'diet' was adjusted. They were not receiving ample vitamins prior to the test. Do you have a link? Umm, you're starting to sound like a broken record on this. hehe Hehe... lol, that's funny. I'm far from a scientist, but it's still funny. An ad hominem as a closing statement. Okay, i leave you to your postings and won't ask you any further for you to clarify anything you post in the future. I'll toss it up to someone who just wants to have their opinions known, but doesn't really want to share insight or information that may have been gleened over the years. I understand not everyone is into growth and learning.

How about letting him be the judge of that?

GJ Shorinryu, always enjoy reading/listening to other MA's RL righteous actions.

Yeah, i'm in the same boat as the boozin' chimp. I was exposed when i was rather young, so never really felt out of my element. With boxing from my dad, judo at various community centers, and knockdown drag-out fights with my bigger brother. I do recall being just a tad clueless for a time with judo. Trying to flip people with force, rather than technique. Part of the problem that exacerbated this was the fact i was friggin' tiny when i was young, so every one of my ukes were twice my mass or larger.

So... bad breath is a manifestation of... bad chi?

"Here Chi... c'mon Chi... that's a good boy."

Yeppers. Have three different versions myself. Even made a gamer's website, years back, dedicated to its philosophies. Can't say it's the greatest, but definitely up there with the classics. Other greats, of course, are Sun Tzu's Art of War, Clausewitz' On War, Machiavelli's The Prince, and Ray's McDonalds Handbook (for those aspiring McDojoists).

Just as not all prescription medicines work for everyone. The body's tolerances to foriegn substances varies substantially per individual. Most of us know this as allergies. Penicillin cures some people, and kills others. Glucosamine is dangerous for many people, because what is found over the counter is usually extracted from shellfish... which many people have allergies to. I, for one, purchase 'vegetarian' glucosamine (extracted from vegetables), just in case. And then there is also the tolerance factor. Your body may eventually counter-balance the regular intake of a foriegn substance (herb, pill, etc), making it ineffective after a time. And... we have the evolutionary aspect of foriegn bodies. Viruses and bacteria for example. Biologists are constantly being put under the gun to find newer, more effective antibiotics... because bacterias have an incredibly short lifespan, and thus can radically evolve in a relatively short period of time. Every evolution of a bacteria demonstrates a higher tolerance to one or another antibiotic. In fact, we have the great example in nature, with the 'rough-skinned newt' and the 'garter snake.' The rough-skinned newt has in its body enough poison to kill a thousand men. But, why would it need to such a powerful toxin? There's nothing out there 'big' enough that hunts it. Well, the answer lies in their greatest predator, the garter snake. The garter snake hunts rough-skinned newts, and has built up a tolerance, in the form of antitoxins, to the toxins emitted by the newt. Thus, the newts, through evolution, have slowly increased their level of toxidity, while the garter snakes, in continuously pursuing the newts as their main source of nourishment, have slowly increased their level of antitoxin. A chemical arms race. (slight tangent)

Umm, no. Please refrain from using fallacious reasoning with me. I don't have a high tolerance for it. To me, when someone uses fallacious reasoning, it means someone is not seeking the truth, but trying to win an argument. Dit da jow is a mixture of herbs, some of which serve no purpose, while others do. However, like all things... there is no magic. It doesn't perform miracles, nor is there any 'mystical' qualities about it. Quoting Popeye, "it does what it does, and that's all that it does." To attribute more to it... is disingenuous. Again, fallacious reasoning. Just because information is handed down from generation to generation doesn't mean they work. It only means they were handed down from generation to generation. Just as tossing salt over the shoulder to ward off evil spirits, not walking under ladders, or avoiding black cats from crossing your path, there are some bits of information... that are just plain bogus. And don't forget, for centuries people were told that circumcision decreased the possibility of penile infections, and yet recent evidence has proven otherwise. Part of the problem with 'most' herbs, is that many of the 'beliefs' on what they do were actually created by merchants. I.e., find a need or create a need for your product. If I grow radishes, what better way for me to sell my product, than to state to my potential customers that radishes are an aphrodisiac? And, if you want to call this ridiculous, this is exactly what a farmer did in Mexico, when his seller abandoned him. Such things happen all the time, and has been happening for centuries. This is myth, i'm sorry to say. There were those who were educated in various areas, but they were the exception, not the rule. That's good. Beer has helped me throughout the years as well. And your point? You see, this is yet another form of fallacious reasoning. You don't indicate what medicine it was, what health problems they were, or whether every medicinal treatment worked for every health problem. In fact, you don't even know if the problem went away on it's own. Cause and effect are not in your analysis, and 'personal experiences' do not substantiate a cure. Just as a placebo can work for a blind man, so can your belief work for you in taking something that has no actual benefits. In fact, it is your mind that is the most powerful pill. Consider this. And this is attributed to traditional chinese herbal treatment? What exactly did he take, what was determimed to be the problem, and did he ever get diagnosed? Without this information, can you 'honestly' say that it was the herbs that treated the problem, or the problem simply going away because of situational changes? I.e., if it was an ulcer, a change in lifestyle, and/or eating habits, could easily have rendered a cure. So... how do you attribute his healing to the herbs without knowing what the problem was, and without removing all other quantifiable influences? Exactly... Umm, excuse me. But could you point out who these 'scientific minds' are? Yet another fallacious reasoning. You posed a straw man here. You state there are these 'greatest scientific minds,' and yet ... do they exist? How am i to argue this, when i don't even have the names of these people? I can't fight a straw man. I can't argue this point, because these 'greatest scientific minds' don't exist. Again... same silliness. Anyway, flouride is rat poison. No ands, ifs, or buts. The scientific community knows the potential harm of flouride in toothpaste, but it is not the scientific community that is keeping it in the tube. It's the marketing departments of the various toothpaste producing corporations. Posting, "with flouride" on a toothpaste tube sells, plain and simple. In fact, this particular argument actually works against your postulations. Thank you. Why? Nobody said it was useless, only that it doesn't have the properties you subscribe to it. It's been stated a multitude of times in this thread that it helps to disinfect and help in dissipating bruises. On the other hand, you say it also mends bones and does dishes. And here is where you are so friggin' misinformed (or, intentionally misrepresenting things). Science, which you've decided to package all up into a nice neat single concept, is a process of examination, not a system of denial. Unfortunately, your fallacious reasoning (false logic) has allowed you to assume the 'process of examination' posed in sciences is the cause of 'stubborn idiots.' In truth, stubborn idiots exist... and may choose whatever career they opt for... including the martial arts.

And let's not forget, the bricks provided for breaking are prepared differently, as are the boards cut differently, to ensure easy breakage. Great for self-esteem, to help out in learning how to penetrate and concentrate, and for fooling parents into believing thier kids are actually getting 'uber.' Ah well...

Pfft, quiet you.

Indeed, a 16 year old black belt, probably attained when he was 14 or 15. Sounds like the same old flaw of providing rank to those who are 'mentally' not ready for it. And to answer your question, it is the people, not the belt rank. There are non-practitioners that behave in exactly the same way, so don't confuse the black belt with the attitude. They are separate things that just so happen to end up in the same package, when bad schools provide affirmation to bad attitudes.

Agreed, a good read. So far i've found myself in agreement with most of what is being presented and stated there. But, i'm only skimming it, and haven't read all of it. Will give it more attention later.

Just like to counter this one thing you mentioned. What's to say they are experts? Their fighting prowess? If so, what makes their fighting prowess a credential to understanding the pharmaceutical applications of herbs, or the biological effects of such on the human body? And, if not... if their expertise is in knowing the various 'handed down' applications of various herbs, does this 'hand me down' info also provide them knowledge of medical, biological, biochemical, and pharmaceautical proof? Various herbs have been looked into by some of the greatest scientific minds in the world and most of them have been determined to be bogus. Not all, mind you, but most. A friend of mine, who works in a notable pharmaceutical company, said to me that the problem with herbs, is that they are a 'mix' of various chemical elements. Some of those elements are not necessarily healthy, while others are. The combination of these chemicals 'sometimes' creates a biological shift in the normal functions of the human body, but that these shifts are not necessarily a good thing and that anything, regardless of whether it is prescribed or over-the-counter, that 'changes' your body's normal functions... should be avoided, unless there is an actual medical need.

Hmm, wash it maybe?

Oh please, politically motivated stereotyping is so cliche'.

hehe

To add, Many of the old-school training methods were acceptable, because they dedicated their lives to just one pursuit... war. Such is not the case nowadays. Few of you would be able to participate in these discussions, had you 'conditioned' your hands as they did then. Why? Well gee... typing maybe?

lol Ditto. Best version i've heard.

I think i'll leave you alone, now that you've backpedaled a few times.

It not important. It's showy and not a very 'smart' way to get up off the ground, to once again face your adversary.

I believe it's called, "a good way to pull your back out."

I'm still trying to determine why you showed it to us in the first place. I mean, it's not your artwork, it's a club of a sort you have yet to identify (don't even know if it's a martial arts club), and i can't tell whether you wanted us to say, "nice," wanted input on how to improve it, or was simply bored and wanted to see what would happen if you tossed in one banana into a cage of starving monkeys.

?? A bunch of guys/gals discuss a field that none of them specialize in (physics), and it's the science that's flawed?!? What did i miss? ??